time changes, our race to the bottom for quality

[GodlessAstronomer]

iPod and earbuds, right?

Yes. Unlike audiophiles, it's about the music for me, not the gear.

 

[dainthomas]

Yeah, I know about Toyota and others building cars here, while US firms have plants here and abroad as well. But what can you do? I don't know the answer. My home state of Indiana is home to lots of these plants, including Toyota and Isuzu but it is also home to lots of GM plants.

My dad was a GM employee for 40 years and I've never owned a car that wasn't a GM. I was seriously considering a Toyota or Honda for my next car, but I just can't do it. It will have to be either GM or Ford.

My Tundra was built in Indiana. I guess no one should buy Toyotas so they can fire all those people. Sounds great for the USA! :\

 

[CallMeJoe]

Yes. Unlike audiophiles, it's about the music for me, not the gear.

It's all about the music for me, as well. I just like having a system that can let the music sound good.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

My Tundra was built in Indiana. I guess no one should buy Toyotas so they can fire all those people. Sounds great for the USA! :\

Where did I say that? Did the line below confuse you?

But what can you do? I don't know the answer.

 

[dainthomas]

Originally Posted by dainthomas
My Tundra was built in Indiana. I guess no one should buy Toyotas so they can fire all those people. Sounds great for the USA! :\

Where did I say that?

I was seriously considering a Toyota or Honda for my next car, but I just can't do it. It will have to be either GM or Ford.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Yes, for me personally, I did say that. I took your statement to mean that I was saying no one should buy Toyota at all, which I didn't mean.

 

[StinkyPinky]

The Rise of Asia scares me and it should scare anyone living in a developed country. China/India simply do not understand workers rights. They'll expect you to have degrees and then work for 10 dollars an hour. 6.5 days a week. Basically no vacation time or anything.

Terrifying. Thank god I'll probably wont be alive to see the worst of it.

 

[dmcowen674]

The Rise of Asia scares me and it should scare anyone living in a developed country. China/India simply do not understand workers rights.

They'll expect you to have degrees and then work for 10 dollars an hour. 6.5 days a week. Basically no vacation time or anything.

No different than the U.S. now.

 

[xj0hnx]

Yes, for me personally, I did say that. I took your statement to mean that I was saying no one should buy Toyota at all, which I didn't mean.

I'm having trouble understanding why you can't buy a Honda or Toyota. Hell Honda even makes some of their cars for the Japanese market in America, weird seeing right hand drives rolling out of a US factory, especially considering the premium some tuners pay to import them back.

 

[Engineer]

The Rise of Asia scares me and it should scare anyone living in a developed country. China/India simply do not understand workers rights. They'll expect you to have degrees and then work for 10 dollars an hour. 6.5 days a week. Basically no vacation time or anything.

Terrifying. Thank god I'll probably wont be alive to see the worst of it.

10 dollars an hour? LOL!

Mexico pays engineers $3.00 per hour (from my own past experience talking with engineers from Mexico at my previous company), so you can guess what China would pay them.

 

[hal2kilo]

First, I think you mean amplifiers, not speakers.
Second, there are still vacuum tube amplifiers in production today.
Third, some of the most highly regarded high fidelity amplifiers ever made are vacuum tube powered and command a premium price on the used market.

I concede your point on energy efficiency, but the rest of your invective against vintage "speakers" is entirely ill conceived.

Old speaker designs were much more efficient. I was always a fan of JBLs myself. Never liked the colored sound of Bose speakers. Too much equilization magic.

 

[hal2kilo]

It's all about the music for me, as well. I just like having a system that can let the music sound good.

That always used to crack me up. The guys with the (in the old days) $2000 dollar stereo systems with 6 albums to play through it.

 

[xj0hnx]

Old speaker designs were much more efficient. I was always a fan of JBLs myself. Never liked the colored sound of Bose speakers. Too much equilization magic.

Pretty sure that "colored sound" from Bose is the shit they make their enclosures out of, or the crappy paper of their cones

 

[CallMeJoe]

Old speaker designs were much more efficient. I was always a fan of JBLs myself. Never liked the colored sound of Bose speakers. Too much equilization magic.

My first quality set of speakers was JBLs (L26), but after a flirtation with Infinity I found my true love with Klipsch.

I've never heard a set of Bose speakers I could live with, not even the old 901 flagship.

I suppose we really should take this discussion to Audio/Video rather than continuing our threadjack...

 

[CallMeJoe]

That always used to crack me up. The guys with the (in the old days) $2000 dollar stereo systems with 6 albums to play through it.

I scraped together enough jack back in the day for a listenable system (Altec Lansing 714A, JBL L26s, Dual 1219 w/ Shure M95ED, Koss Pro 4AA), partly on layaway, but always put my discretionary cash into vinyl. I still have about 1800 LPs in my library...

 

[xj0hnx]

but after a flirtation with Infinity I found my true love with Klipsch.

:thumbsup:

 

[CallMeJoe]

:thumbsup:

I am glad we can find something on which we agree!

 

[GroundedSailor]

Thanks for your reply.

I picked the Toyota numbers up from a radio spot a few years ago. I picked up the Ford numbers from my last company doing business with them.

As for profits, I think that profits are dwarfed by wages. I may be wrong but I bet there is far more money pumped into the US economy by paying those that make the cars/parts than just bringing the profits back into the US from making the cars/parts elsewhere.

Just looking at profits alone does not give you the bigger picture. I would like to see what the final figure ends when you include all of the issues that I brought up, i.e. profits, tool/die costs, R&D spending as well as transfer pricing. Probably not too much more than pure wages.

As for tool/die work, I think it's probably a high content from the local sources around the plant but since Mexico doesn't have a large skilled trade population, I could see it coming from places like Michigan. I know Toyota has lots of work done by local vendors (my company does controls work for them and used to help install good size conveyor projects, etc).

Yes it may have a local content but, as you state later on, a lot of the local vendors tend to be local branches of companies making those very parts back in the home country.

One has to remember that a lot of 'foreign' makes started assembly in the US back in the 70's when quotas were sure to be instituted. Local assembly started as a work around to avoid quotas. Since then, the process has progressively become more localized. Some it could be due to more efficient production in the US. I heard Ford is planning to build the Kuga in US, even though it will only sell in Europe (unless it becomes the new Escape), partly due to lower labor costs.

As for R&D, I'm sure that there is more spent on R&D by Ford/GM/Domestics here than Toyota but that's not to say that they Toyota doesn't spend money here. They do have the engineering centers here. Honda designed the entire Ridgeline truck here. Don't forget the fact that GM designed the new Buick entirely in Germany (where it is also built).

As for parts from foreign countries, I don't have enough stats on that to say one way or another. I know that many foreign automotive companies like to buy from their own countries. With that said, if you can open a branch of a native company in the producing country, they will generally buy from the local branch. My last company did just that by buying a Korean supplier and then opening a branch in Alabama, which now supplies both Kia and Hyundai their brake/fuel assemblies. Since the Korean company is 60% US owned, part of the profits stay here and since 100% of the workers are here, all of the wages go into the US economy.

I personally think that the wages of 20,000+ far outweigh any profits coming back, especially since those wages go to the typical middle class family and not the investor class that typically gets the profits.

While I agree wages staying here is a good thing, foreign makers tend to pay less wages which translates to more money for the manufacturer. Lets also not forget the other stuff (R&D etc) also means wages for a different set of people.

The other issue with parts is transfer pricing. Honda was famous for this back in their earlier days, although I do believe it does not go as much on now. My wife drives an 'import' and when I open the hood I find all parts make overseas. Obviously the local company is buying the parts from the home country, but at what prices? An easy way to transfer profits back to the home country.

Automotive companies, for the most part, don't like to ship parts very long distances because of potential disruptions of the supply chain. All it takes is one "widget" missing and the entire line shuts down. Not saying that they don't do it, but I know that several have "balked" about moving operations even to Mexico (for parts suppliers) because the cross-country shipping of parts was one more potential block to daily production.

Edit: One thing I noticed in my previous company is that the amount of Mexican labor was ALWAYS underestimated. Not sure whether it was this way with other companies or not but quotes would be one for one Mexican labor vs the same amount of US labor. Many US plants would quote automation vs Mexican labor and would lose out barely. However, once in the Mexican plant, labor was almost always double (i.e. double the number of expected workers). Pissed off lots of the US plants (now closed) because they could have competed with automation if allowed. Again, not sure of other companies, just an observation.

Labor is always underestimated. :biggrin: I see that in my field of work as well - not auto related.

I understand that globalization has made it more difficult to say which vehicle has more US content or which manufacturer is more beneficial to the US economy. Maybe I'm old school (yes I'm getting old) but I would still prefer to support a domestic manufacturer who builds vehicles here and pays a decent wage. The good thing is US manufacturers have made rapid improvements in quality.

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