time changes, our race to the bottom for quality

[Binarycow]

Just saw the new ad of PizzaHut on TV and that got me thinking. I remember 15 years ago their large supreme pizzas cost around 18 bucks (plus tax) and now they are selling them for $10. There were $1 items on McDonald's menu then and they are still here after all this time. Many many other household items of all kinds are barely more expensive now than they were 15-20 years ago. All that sounds great until you figure out their quality all have taken a big dive over those years.

Products nowadays are built as cheaply as possible that most of them fall apart after using them a couple of times. Food, especially fast food are so bad in quality that it's almost a gamble every time you eat them.

Even companies whose names we used to associate with quality products had to adjust their quality for the worse in order to stay competitive. It's like you have to go out of your way to different specialty shops to get better-quality products and I simply do not have enough time to do that.

I remember when I was growing up that the "made in USA" stamp on a product meant it works and it's durable. Now I can barely find anything around my house with that same stamp any more and it's not like I go out of my way to avoid it.

 

[Engineer]

Don't worry, there will be more money to improve some of the fast food once McDonalds and Wendys finishes offshoring the drive through window order clerk (testing internet order centers in India. 50% fewer mistakes and 20% of the pay).

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Don't worry, there will be more money to improve some of the fast food once McDonalds and Wendys finishes offshoring the drive through window order clerk (testing internet order centers in India. 50% fewer mistakes and 20% of the pay).

I read about that a few weeks ago. I mean, WTF?!?!? Just when you think it can't get any worse, they are trying to even outsource fast food jobs!

What next? Outsourcing Wal Mart greeters? You'll walk in and there will be a large monitor with a webcam and a mic so you can talk to "Bob," the Wal Mart greeter live from India?

I find it humorous that the executive ranks never consider outsourcing their own jobs. Talk about cost savings -- you'd get a guy in India doing their jobs equally as well for 10% of their bloated pay.

 

[Triumph]

i bet moving production off shore is responsible for most of the price stagnation that you're referring to. i've noticed it too, a loaf of bread, box of cereal, or gallon of milk seem to cost about the same as they did 15 years ago. although i would agree that in many ways the quality is much lower in addition to being produced for a cheaper price. however, there are products where the quality is just as good as 15 years ago if not better. i would argue that cars today are the best that they've ever been. "old" people grumble and moan about needing a computer to fix anything on their car, and "that's not how it was in the old days", while conveniently forgetting about performing such tedious tasks as setting points and adjusting carbs every 5,000 miles. it'll all come to a head one day, though, because when china and india begin to demand better qualities of life in their own country, either a: the production will move off shore again to, I dunno, Namibia or Botswana or something equivalently depressed, or b: their demand for natural resources is going to cause trouble for our way of life and our days of being fat and happy are going to come to an end. comforting thought, isn't it?

 

[IndyColtsFan]

i bet moving production off shore is responsible for most of the price stagnation that you're referring to. i've noticed it too, a loaf of bread, box of cereal, or gallon of milk seem to cost about the same as they did 15 years ago. although i would agree that in many ways the quality is much lower in addition to being produced for a cheaper price. however, there are products where the quality is just as good as 15 years ago if not better. i would argue that cars today are the best that they've ever been. "old" people grumble and moan about needing a computer to fix anything on their car, and "that's not how it was in the old days", while conveniently forgetting about performing such tedious tasks as setting points and adjusting carbs every 5,000 miles. it'll all come to a head one day, though, because when china and india begin to demand better qualities of life in their own country, either a: the production will move off shore again to, I dunno, Namibia or Botswana or something equivalently depressed, or b: their demand for natural resources is going to cause trouble for our way of life and our days of being fat and happy are going to come to an end. comforting thought, isn't it?

I think it is already happening to some extent. I've heard Vietnam is the new gold standard for outsourcers and you know places like Bangladesh and countries in sub-Saharan Africa won't be far behind.

 

[Binarycow]

What I want to know is what will happen to us 20 years down the road once China, India, etc, get to where we were 10-15 years ago? I'm so nervous about how half of our population (rough personal guess) are not educated to the level to be competitive with the rest of the world. Seems like a huge portion of our population are riding on the economic success of a shrinking portion of their countrymen.

 

[Engineer]

I read about that a few weeks ago. I mean, WTF?!?!? Just when you think it can't get any worse, they are trying to even outsource fast food jobs!

What next? Outsourcing Wal Mart greeters? You'll walk in and there will be a large monitor with a webcam and a mic so you can talk to "Bob," the Wal Mart greeter live from India?

I find it humorous that the executive ranks never consider outsourcing their own jobs. Talk about cost savings -- you'd get a guy in India doing their jobs equally as well for 10% of their bloated pay.

About 3 years ago, we (at work) heard that Wendys was testing it. A co-worker asked when he went through the drive through if they had taken the order locally. They told him no, that the order was currently being taken at a test order center in a nearby city and that it would be sent to India once testing was complete and the new built order center was operational in India.

I have heard that McDonalds is considering the same thing and have even heard (read?) that they are testing it but don't have any first hand information on it.

Pretty damn sad.

 

[CycloWizard]

It was a good ride while it lasted. Now everyone is up in arms because other countries want a piece of what we have, but who can blame them? Will you take an 80% paycut to do your job? If not, you're ceding it to someone who will do it for 20% of your pay. Distance and geographic location don't matter much any more. The only way you'll keep your current pay is if you work for the government (in which case you'll get a raise) or if you are truly irreplaceable.

 

[Engineer]

What I want to know is what will happen to us 20 years down the road once China, India, etc, get to where we were 10-15 years ago? I'm so nervous about how half of our population (rough personal guess) are not educated to the level to be competitive with the rest of the world. Seems like a huge portion of our population are riding on the economic success of a shrinking portion of their countrymen.

So not only will our lower educated jobs (manufacturing, etc) be offshored, so will our technology jobs (engineers, scientists) will be offshored (or replaced by cheap labor). My company recently hired a new engineer with a Masters Degree and is paying him $17 per hour with no benefits. He is very happy with the pay vs what he would have received in his native Taiwan. Said that he makes enough to live on and gets to travel around and see the world.

China to USA: All your jobs are belong to us.

It was a good ride while it lasted. Now everyone is up in arms because other countries want a piece of what we have, but who can blame them? Will you take an 80% paycut to do your job? If not, you're ceding it to someone who will do it for 20% of your pay. Distance and geographic location don't matter much any more. The only way you'll keep your current pay is if you work for the government (in which case you'll get a raise) or if you are truly irreplaceable.

Yep. Even professions like surgeons are being offshored. It was touted that you can have heart surgery in India for $6,000 (including flights to and from) vs $150,000 that it costs here. Was touted to be as good (clean, professional, etc) but I'm not sure about that. (Steve Forbes was the one touting this by the way). I know that there are people in the US going to dentists in Mexico because the work is as good (from their experience) and it's 20% of the cost (and that is with no insurance coverage in Mexico vs insurance covered in US).

Can't compete with wages (partially a currency issue) like those.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

What I want to know is what will happen to us 20 years down the road once China, India, etc, get to where we were 10-15 years ago? I'm so nervous about how half of our population (rough personal guess) are not educated to the level to be competitive with the rest of the world. Seems like a huge portion of our population are riding on the economic success of a shrinking portion of their countrymen.

There is an educational arms race in this country at the moment and frankly, I personally believe it is causing more issues than it is solving. Not everyone can or SHOULD go to college, and the result is that we have a lot of people going through school, amassing a tremendous amount of debt, and settling for low paying jobs when they graduate because nothing else is available.

We've discussed this several times in this forum, but the continued bleating from the politicians that education is the answer and Americans will always be the innovators/designers/creative thinkers is absolute BS. The Indians and Chinese are very smart people and with all of our money pouring into their countries, they're eventually going to reach critical mass and then EVERYTHING will be done in those countries -- from design to implementation. What will be left for us?

The erosion of our manufacturing base is killing our country.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

About 3 years ago, we (at work) heard that Wendys was testing it. A co-worker asked when he went through the drive through if they had taken the order locally. They told him no, that the order was currently being taken at a test order center in a nearby city and that it would be sent to India once testing was complete and the new built order center was operational in India.

I have heard that McDonalds is considering the same thing and have even heard (read?) that they are testing it but don't have any first hand information on it.

Pretty damn sad.

Enough is enough. I really believe that we need to tax the crap out of companies that do stuff like this.

 

[Paul98]

There are a lot of reasons for this, some good some bad. You might get better quality for less or the same that you spent 15 years ago others you might get worse quality or be spending more money now. Much of it due to the technology. Also it seems that a lot of it is the quality you are looking for. Fast food doesn't really seem any different than it used to be, and in some areas seems a good bit better. There are for sure more options.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

It was a good ride while it lasted. Now everyone is up in arms because other countries want a piece of what we have, but who can blame them? Will you take an 80% paycut to do your job? If not, you're ceding it to someone who will do it for 20% of your pay. Distance and geographic location don't matter much any more. The only way you'll keep your current pay is if you work for the government (in which case you'll get a raise) or if you are truly irreplaceable.

I never see executives having to settle for 80% of their pay to keep their jobs. That's the double standard I see. There is no way American executives are so unique or have such awesome skills that they couldn't be replaced with an Indian executive at 10% of their pay.

 

[Engineer]

The erosion of our manufacturing base is killing our country.

And it's just not low skilled assembly jobs that are being offshored from it either. I couldn't agree more with anything posted on these forums.

I read a study (can't find it for the life of me) that showed the 7 steps of decline of every empire in history (all have fallen). Step #6 was "Relying on the slave labor of conquered lands for your goods and services". While it may not be "conquered", it's pretty damn close.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

But there comes a time when people need to wake up and stop with the mindset that "Well it sucks that their job has been outsourced, but it makes things cheaper for me and after all, I still have my job!" As individuals, we're not looking at the bigger picture here. We NEED jobs to stay in America, and we NEED the middle class to grow. That's why I will always buy American cars. Sure, you can say "Well they aren't really totally 'American' anymore!", but what else can I do? I'd rather give my money to Ford or GM than Toyota or Honda.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

And it's just not low skilled assembly jobs that are being offshored from it either. I couldn't agree more with anything posted on these forums.

I read a study (can't find it for the life of me) that showed the 7 steps of decline of every empire in history (all have fallen). Step #6 was "Relying on the slave labor of conquered lands for your goods and services". While it may not be "conquered", it's pretty damn close.

You're right, and all we're doing now is sending our money to one of two places: the foreign nations performing the labor or to the wealthy here in the US who own or manage the companies doing the outsourcing. I'm generally a conservative but come on, when the percentage of the wealth held by the nation's top 1% or 2% TRIPLES from 1980 to today, that is a HUGE problem.

 

[LittleNemoNES]

There is no point in amassing huge debt by going to college anymore.

Evolution is running it's course; crafty thievery is the only way to go now.


Our politicians have let us down. Americans should have been at the forefront of the technological age but polis allowed tech jobs to be shipped over-seas and now we are fubar

 

[Engineer]

I'd rather give my money to Ford or GM than Toyota or Honda.

Toyota Camry: 8,000 people employed in Georgetown, KY with an estimated 15,000 people making parts for the car.

For Fusion: 5,000 people employed in Mexico + 15,000 people in Mexico making parts for car.

How much of the money stays here (wages) vs leaves (profit) in case of the Camry and how much money comes here (profits) and leaves (wages) for the Fusion?

Not to mention the Engineering centers in Erlanger, KY and Michigan that Toyota has opened. Kia, Hyundai, and Honda have done the same.

I'm giving my money to who keeps the most Americans employed (as long as it's not a shit car in which case, I'll pick another one that's built here that I like).

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Toyota Camry: 8,000 people employed in Georgetown, KY with an estimated 15,000 people making parts for the car.

For Fusion: 5,000 people employed in Mexico + 15,000 people in Mexico making parts for car.

How much of the money stays here (wages) vs leaves (profit) in case of the Camry and how much money comes here (profits) and leaves (wages) for the Fusion?

Not to mention the Engineering centers in Erlanger, KY and Michigan that Toyota has opened. Kia, Hyundai, and Honda have done the same.

I'm giving my money to who keeps the most Americans employed (as long as it's not a shit car in which case, I'll pick another one that's built here that I like).

Yeah, I know about Toyota and others building cars here, while US firms have plants here and abroad as well. But what can you do? I don't know the answer. My home state of Indiana is home to lots of these plants, including Toyota and Isuzu but it is also home to lots of GM plants.

My dad was a GM employee for 40 years and I've never owned a car that wasn't a GM. I was seriously considering a Toyota or Honda for my next car, but I just can't do it. It will have to be either GM or Ford.

 

[Engineer]

Yeah, I know about Toyota and others building cars here, while US firms have plants here and abroad as well. But what can you do? I don't know the answer. My home state of Indiana is home to lots of these plants, including Toyota and Isuzu but it is also home to lots of GM plants.

My dad was a GM employee for 40 years and I've never owned a car that wasn't a GM. I was seriously considering a Toyota or Honda for my next car, but I just can't do it. It will have to be either GM or Ford.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I will buy a GM or Ford (I've owned 3 Dodges in a row but don't much care for their offerings right now) and would buy one that I like as long as it's made here. I like the Taurus, the Malibu, especially the LaCrosse. Every car that I've bought in the last 15 years has been built here. Too bad I can't say that about many other things in my home (and believe me, I do try to find things made here but often can't - even things that I bought just a few years ago made here are no longer).

Was looking for information on McDonalds offshoring of it's drive through window and read a blurb that Pizza Hut is doing the same with it's call in orders. Routing local numbers to call centers offshore to have cheap labor taking the orders. heh.

As for quality goes (OP), just think back about 20 years ago. A VCR was very expensive and it was cheaper to get it repaired if it broke...but now, break your cheap DVD player...just throw it away and get a new one. Cheaper than paying someone here from working on it. And, when you do send stuff back for warranty service, I know that some of it is sent to other countries for repair and then sent back because the labor is so cheap that there is no possible way to have it done here at a low cost.

 

[charrison]

Don't worry, there will be more money to improve some of the fast food once McDonalds and Wendys finishes offshoring the drive through window order clerk (testing internet order centers in India. 50% fewer mistakes and 20% of the pay).

I had heard about some trials of this a few ago, but it appears not much has come of it. It it was not india, but a US call center.

 

[Engineer]

I had heard about some trials of this a few ago, but it appears not much has come of it. It it was not india, but a US call center.

As stated above, Wendys employee (manager I think) told a co-worker that it was currently being handled in US order center with "intent" to offshore it to cheaper countries (India, etc) once the test was successful and that the offshored center was complete. There was a recent study that stated that order mistakes were 50% less and cost 20% of having someone local take the order (even with the infrastructure needed to send the orders around the world and back). The study was by McDonalds but don't quote me on that one...I might be mistaken on which company published it.

 

[Paul98]

Now I don't know too much about it but from what I know Honda and Toyota both do closer to what you want than most of the US auto makers. But yes I agree with you on most points, the top makes a huge amount of money while screwing over almost everyone else. While convincing most people who aren't them that they are doing them a favor.

It's like when people say well give the rich a break they are the ones giving the jobs. Like they give people jobs out of the goodness of there hearts, They make money off you which is why you have the job. Now this is a good thing for a growing business, the problem is when it's purely about profits and lets say things are going well for a little bit. Instead of having a minor pay cut for a few people at the top they cut a bunch of jobs. A lot of the risk is removed for the top, it's make money or make more money. Even when they crash and burn and things go to hell they still seem to make out like bandits.

 

[Engineer]

Now I don't know too much about it but from what I know Honda and Toyota both do closer to what you want than most of the US auto makers. But yes I agree with you on most points, the top makes a huge amount of money while screwing over almost everyone else. While convincing most people who aren't them that they are doing them a favor.

It's like when people say well give the rich a break they are the ones giving the jobs. Like they give people jobs out of the goodness of there hearts, They make money off you which is why you have the job. Now this is a good thing for a growing business, the problem is when it's purely about profits and lets say things are going well for a little bit. Instead of having a minor pay cut for a few people at the top they cut a bunch of jobs. A lot of the risk is removed for the top, it's make money or make more money. Even when they crash and burn and things go to hell they still seem to make out like bandits.

Wages are down for a decade (for both college and high school grads) after inflation yet profits are still strong for companies. Credit has propped up our addiction to off-shoring and cheap stuff. That's exactly why it was important that the banks didn't collapse and it's important (in politicians eyes) that banks keep lending. How else do we keep up our spending unless we borrow money to make up for lower wages? To me, it seems like our first recovery in the US after a recession (2001-2003) that didn't include an increase in manufacturing shows why were are in the declining state that we are. But hey, it's just no skilled, high paying jobs that we're giving away to get stuff cheaper....and another chip at the foundation of America is taken out.....

 

[charrison]

As stated above, Wendys employee (manager I think) told a co-worker that it was currently being handled in US order center with "intent" to offshore it to cheaper countries (India, etc) once the test was successful and that the offshored center was complete. There was a recent study that stated that order mistakes were 50% less and cost 20% of having someone local take the order (even with the infrastructure needed to send the orders around the world and back). The study was by McDonalds but don't quote me on that one...I might be mistaken on which company published it.

I do not doubt there is cost savings in taking orders via a call center, but I do doubt that there are savings routing them through india. The main issue being language. Drive thoughs are about speed and if there are any language issues whatever so ever it will cost them more.

If placing an order at mcd's is anything on the order of the indian tech support(much of which has come back to the US) I have received, this would be an unmitigated disaster.