time changes, our race to the bottom for quality

[Engineer]

I do not doubt there is cost savings in taking orders via a call center, but I do doubt that there are savings routing them through india. The main issue being language. Drive thoughs are about speed and if there are any language issues whatever so ever it will cost them more.

If placing an order at mcd's is anything on the order of the indian tech support(much of which has come back to the US) I have received, this would be an unmitigated disaster.

I guess that is why they are testing. Also, have you ever heard some of the order takers at these places, lol?

Who knows, maybe before long, people can be replaced by voice recognition. Happened in many places that used to have many operators. Now, voice recognition moves you around and tries to solve your problem vs real people (only as a last resort and sometimes in India).

 

[charrison]

Wages are down for a decade (for both college and high school grads) after inflation yet profits are still strong for companies. Credit has propped up our addiction to off-shoring and cheap stuff. That's exactly why it was important that the banks didn't collapse and it's important (in politicians eyes) that banks keep lending. How else do we keep up our spending unless we borrow money to make up for lower wages? To me, it seems like our first recovery in the US after a recession (2001-2003) that didn't include an increase in manufacturing shows why were are in the declining state that we are. But hey, it's just no skilled, high paying jobs that we're giving away to get stuff cheaper....and another chip at the foundation of America is taken out.....

There was a very long streak in manufacturing output during this time frame. There however was not much growth in manufacturing employment. This has far more to do with productivity than outsourcing and there is not much than can be done about it.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

Price is a function of supply and demand, not production costs. So lower production costs will not necessarily equate to lower prices, despite what a lot a "free traders" love to spout.

 

[charrison]

I guess that is why they are testing. Also, have you ever heard some of the order takers at these places, lol?

I think most of the problem is cheap mics and speakers.

There is a chick-fil-a near us that sends someone out during peak times to take orders(wireless pos) in the drive though line. This works really well.

 

[charrison]

Price is a function of supply and demand, not production costs. So lower production costs will not necessarily equate to lower prices, despite what a lot a "free traders" love to spout.

True, but high profits tend to invite competition as well, so markets with fat margins typically dont stay fat. Typically product gains are passed onto the consumer.

 

[MJinZ]

Just saw the new ad of PizzaHut on TV and that got me thinking. I remember 15 years ago their large supreme pizzas cost around 18 bucks (plus tax) and now they are selling them for $10. There were $1 items on McDonald's menu then and they are still here after all this time. Many many other household items of all kinds are barely more expensive now than they were 15-20 years ago. All that sounds great until you figure out their quality all have taken a big dive over those years.

Products nowadays are built as cheaply as possible that most of them fall apart after using them a couple of times. Food, especially fast food are so bad in quality that it's almost a gamble every time you eat them.

Even companies whose names we used to associate with quality products had to adjust their quality for the worse in order to stay competitive. It's like you have to go out of your way to different specialty shops to get better-quality products and I simply do not have enough time to do that.

I remember when I was growing up that the "made in USA" stamp on a product meant it works and it's durable. Now I can barely find anything around my house with that same stamp any more and it's not like I go out of my way to avoid it.

Well, this is just about 100% False.

Hope you lose your "gamble" the next time at McDonalds and die of food poisoning. :twisted:

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

True, but high profits tend to invite competition as well, so markets with fat margins typically dont stay fat. Typically product gains are passed onto the consumer.

Given the current state of things I wouldn't say that's happening typically.

 

[Engineer]

There was a very long streak in manufacturing output during this time frame. There however was not much growth in manufacturing employment. This has far more to do with productivity than outsourcing and there is not much than can be done about it.

Say what you will, but the countries that are increasing manufacturing (including hiring) and exporting their products are the ones winning right now while we are in a state of decline.

(See China, India, even Germany).

People who MAKE and sell stuff FTW. Services = America as a used car salesman.

 

[MJinZ]

Say what you will, but the countries that are increasing manufacturing (including hiring) and exporting their products are the ones winning right now while we are in a state of decline.

(See China, India, even Germany).

People who MAKE and sell stuff FTW. Services = America as a used car salesman.

There's death and there's up from the bottom.

 

[ShawnD1]

My dad was a GM employee for 40 years and I've never owned a car that wasn't a GM. I was seriously considering a Toyota or Honda for my next car, but I just can't do it. It will have to be either GM or Ford.

Looking at the company is basically meaningless since GM operates in every country and has share holders in every country. Look at where the individual product is made. GM made in Mexico is bad. GM made in USA is good.


Know how McDonalds finds a way to lower costs? Add more saw dust

 

[charrison]

Say what you will, but the countries that are increasing manufacturing (including hiring) and exporting their products are the ones winning right now while we are in a state of decline.

(See China, India, even Germany).

People who MAKE and sell stuff FTW. Services = America as a used car salesman.

Of course the US still makes, a lot of stuff. We export more than most country's GDP. And a significant number of our imports are raw materials to make stuff. Consumer goods make up about 25% of our imports.

If services are so bad, why does the average service job pay more than the average manufacturing job.

And your job as industrial engineer is your end product a service or manufacturing. I suspect there is much gray area in the classification of your job.

 

[Engineer]

Of course the US still makes, a lot of stuff. We export more than most country's GDP. And a significant number of our imports are raw materials to make stuff. Consumer goods make up about 25% of our imports.

If services are so bad, why does the average service job pay more than the average manufacturing job.

And your job as industrial engineer is your end product a service or manufacturing. I suspect there is much gray area in the classification of your job.

Never said that the US isn't making stuff....but we are offshoring more and more. How much of the "Made in the USA" stuff is now "sub-assembled" in other countries like Mexico? I can attest that in my last job, more and more stuff was being sub-assembled in Mexico, imported to the USA and then final assembly in the USA with a good ole Made in the USA label plopped on top.

Even started getting tubing made in China that was cut, prepped and shipped to the US in a package printed with a large red/white/blue flag image on the entire bag. Do you think that the final assembled product stated made in China because of the tubing made in China? How about the 50 year old plant that shut down making tubing for the sub assemblies? Only low skilled production workers were the only ones let go when that plant was shut down??? Really? How about my plant with 32 people with 1,000 years of "skilled trade" workers being offshored to Korea? People who knew how to build machinery and make it run from raw steel to final machine in production.

The US has fallen to the 3rd largest exporter and we are borrowing our way down the road just a little longer. I guess it works out OK for those at the top because they get their money now, the poor and middle classes, while having stagnant wages, can borrow their way to a sustained standard of living but eventually, the bottom falls out (like it's doing now) and then what? There is a reason that 50% of the people don't pay income tax while working in this country....it's because they have fallen below the income line for federal taxes. While service jobs currently pay more than manufacturing jobs, it's just a matter of time till offshoring kills them just like it has done to manufacturing.

People like you seem to think that we are only getting rid of low skilled, relatively high paying jobs and in return, we are gaining a smarter, more educated workforce that is "engineering" the world. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The decade of the 2000's was just the start of a declining wage....it only goes downhill faster from here. Count on it.

As for my job, it used to be making machinery for "manufacturing". Wow, WE made stuff to make stuff. Now, it's generally installing and working on machinery for manufacturing (spent nearly last 17 days working on stuff for Toyota - to make stuff here and improve quality). Manufacturing needs services too....move the manufacturing out and those service jobs go too. But of course, there are those that believe that manufacturing offshoring just sends low skilled, relatively high paying (+ benefits) jobs out of the country to ALL of our benefit.

 

[Binarycow]

And it's just not low skilled assembly jobs that are being offshored from it either. I couldn't agree more with anything posted on these forums.

I read a study (can't find it for the life of me) that showed the 7 steps of decline of every empire in history (all have fallen). Step #6 was "Relying on the slave labor of conquered lands for your goods and services". While it may not be "conquered", it's pretty damn close.

You know, the Roman empire in their declining years, Rome had nothing to offer other provinces of the empire besides sending to them administrative staff whom were trained in Rome.

 

[Binarycow]

But there comes a time when people need to wake up and stop with the mindset that "Well it sucks that their job has been outsourced, but it makes things cheaper for me and after all, I still have my job!" As individuals, we're not looking at the bigger picture here. We NEED jobs to stay in America, and we NEED the middle class to grow. That's why I will always buy American cars. Sure, you can say "Well they aren't really totally 'American' anymore!", but what else can I do? I'd rather give my money to Ford or GM than Toyota or Honda.

Amen to that.

 

[charrison]

Never said that the US isn't making stuff....but we are offshoring more and more. How much of the "Made in the USA" stuff is now "sub-assembled" in other countries like Mexico? I can attest that in my last job, more and more stuff was being sub-assembled in Mexico, imported to the USA and then final assembly in the USA with a good ole Made in the USA label plopped on top.

Even started getting tubing made in China that was cut, prepped and shipped to the US in a package printed with a large red/white/blue flag image on the entire bag.

The US has fallen to the 3rd largest exporter and we are borrowing our way down the road just a little longer. I guess it works out OK for those at the top because they get their money now, the poor and middle classes, while having stagnant wages, can borrow their way to a sustained standard of living but eventually, the bottom falls out (like it's doing now) and then what? There is a reason that 50% of the people don't pay income tax while working in this country....it's because they have fallen below the income line for federal taxes. While service jobs currently pay more than manufacturing jobs, it's just a matter of time till offshoring kills them just like it has done to manufacturing.

People like you seem to think that we are only getting rid of low skilled, relatively high paying jobs and in return, we are gaining a smarter, more educated workforce that is "engineering" the world. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The decade of the 2000's was just the start of a declining wage....it only goes downhill faster from here. Count on it.

I dont disagree with anything you are saying. However, you have to ask yourself why it is cheaper to cut pipes in china and send them 1/2 way around the world than it is to do it here. It appears our govt would rather keep excessive regulation and complicated tax code than to let business grow here.

I believe our workforce in general is very talented and capable, but there is a multitude of issues that keep us from doing more. And yes the stats do show services pay more than manufacturing on average and the entire world is moving away from manufacturing as a prime employment area.

 

[Darwin333]

Price is a function of supply and demand, not production costs. So lower production costs will not necessarily equate to lower prices, despite what a lot a "free traders" love to spout.

Lower costs generally mean more supply. It also makes it much easier for someone else to make a competing product because it doesn't require as much capital to enter the market.

$20 DVD players are a perfect example. This is especially true when costs are cut to the limit, the only way to increase profits at that point is to increase market share. In most industries that means lowering price in order to increase volume.

 

[Binarycow]

There's death and there's up from the bottom.

Believe me, I'm rooting for the UP from the bottom, but what if it turns out the other way? What then? Don't tell me that you live solely on hope.

 

[Engineer]

I dont disagree with anything you are saying. However, you have to ask yourself why it is cheaper to cut pipes in china and send them 1/2 way around the world than it is to do it here. It appears our govt would rather keep excessive regulation and complicated tax code than to let business grow here.

I believe our workforce in general is very talented and capable, but there is a multitude of issues that keep us from doing more. And yes the stats do show services pay more than manufacturing on average and the entire world is moving away from manufacturing as a prime employment area.

Do you really think that cutting our regulations and business taxes will allow us to compete with $0.08 per hour from China? Do you think that a person making $0.08 per hour in China would be able to buy "less, same or more" stuff than someone making $0.08 per hour in US? I guess it's fair trade when the currency is totally manipulated to be extremely cost effective (i.e. cheap) to make stuff in the homeland and export it?

Personally, I like the fact that our machinery is safe and when I stick my hand in a machine, it stops. China, stick and in, lose hand, be replaced by workers standing outside. Of course, it's not your hand and as long as you get your cheap stuff and have your job, it's OK, right?

 

[ProfJohn]

The outsourced fast food thing sounds like a fad.

Google it and all you find are articles from 2006 & 2007. A lot of places tried it and then gave up once they realized all the problems it created and the fact that they couldn't point to much in the way of cost savings.

Also, all of the call centers were located in the US. Sending a call like that overseas would cost too much, especially when you realize that we are dealing with minimum wage jobs to begin with.

 

[Engineer]

The outsourced fast food thing sounds like a fad.

Google it and all you find are articles from 2006 & 2007. A lot of places tried it and then gave up once they realized all the problems it created and the fact that they couldn't point to much in the way of cost savings.

Also, all of the call centers were located in the US. Sending a call like that overseas would cost too much, especially when you realize that we are dealing with minimum wage jobs to begin with.

While that may or may not be true, it doesn't cost much to send anything overseas now with the Internet and IP telephony growing by leaps and bounds (and becoming more cost effective every day). I do tend to agree that it will be (or already is becoming) a fad. But, that doesn't keep them from trying more and more stuff like this so even a job at the bottom isn't safe from cheap, offshored labor.

 

[Darwin333]

Given the current state of things I wouldn't say that's happening typically.

Such as?

The crap we buy is generally getting cheaper. I bought a laptop for $200 FFS. It wasn't that long ago that you couldn't buy a shitty used laptop that cheap. Flat panel TVs not only continue to get better but also cheaper along with most other consumer products. There are a few sectors that this doesn't apply but a lot of that can be blamed on .gov interference (like food).

 

[charrison]

Do you really think that cutting our regulations and business taxes will allow us to compete with $0.08 per hour from China? Do you think that a person making $0.08 per hour in China would be able to buy "less, same or more" stuff than someone making $0.08 per hour in US?

Well wages are low in china, but they are more than 8 cents an hour now. And lets not also forget the overhead of getting stuff from china. Transport cost for tubing(mostly air) has got to be fairly expensive. And wages in china and india are rising fairly quickly.

Personally, I like the fact that our machinery is safe and when I stick my hand in a machine, it stops. China, stick and in, lose hand, be replaced by workers standing outside. Of course, it's not your hand and as long as you get your cheap stuff and have your job, it's OK, right?

I did not say we should have no regulation, but I have little doubt that many industries face more than a small amount of over-regulation. Just look at the tax code for corporations, it is excessively complicated. Lets find the right balance between safety and cost. Lets create an environment that is business can thrive in, even when faced with cheap over seas labor. Or we can just keep what we are doing....

 

[charrison]

Such as?

The crap we buy is generally getting cheaper. I bought a laptop for $200 FFS. It wasn't that long ago that you couldn't buy a shitty used laptop that cheap. Flat panel TVs not only continue to get better but also cheaper along with most other consumer products. There are a few sectors that this doesn't apply but a lot of that can be blamed on .gov interference (like food).

Actually food, as a percentage of income has never been cheaper.

 

[Darwin333]

Do you really think that cutting our regulations and business taxes will allow us to compete with $0.08 per hour from China? Do you think that a person making $0.08 per hour in China would be able to buy "less, same or more" stuff than someone making $0.08 per hour in US? I guess it's fair trade when the currency is totally manipulated to be extremely cost effective (i.e. cheap) to make stuff in the homeland and export it?

Personally, I like the fact that our machinery is safe and when I stick my hand in a machine, it stops. China, stick and in, lose hand, be replaced by workers standing outside. Of course, it's not your hand and as long as you get your cheap stuff and have your job, it's OK, right?

Personally I don't think you should be sticking your hand in a running machine that can cut if off. Kinda neat that it stops though but I am not a huge fan of the "safety label" culture we have developed. If you are dumb enough to eat a box of rat poison that says POISON on the bottle and has a universally recognized symbol for poison on it then perhaps we don't really want you in the gene pool anyway.

 

[Engineer]

Well wages are low in china, but they are more than 8 cents an hour now. And lets not also forget the overhead of getting stuff from china. Transport cost for tubing(mostly air) has got to be fairly expensive. And wages in china and india are rising fairly quickly.




I did not say we should have no regulation, but I have little doubt that many industries face more than a small amount of over-regulation. Just look at the tax code for corporations, it is excessively complicated. Lets find the right balance between safety and cost. Lets create an environment that is business can thrive in, even when faced with cheap over seas labor. Or we can just keep what we are doing....

Wages were, as of 1.5 years ago, $0.08 per hour for our plants in China. Tubing is shipped via SHIP in bulk. Even if they have doubled, $0.16 per hour doesn't make your argument much better. Again, do you think $0.16 or $0.24 or higher is equivalent to the SAME amount here?

I agree that our tax code could be streamlined but with that said, we have the 2nd lowest BURDEN in the industrialized world. As for safety, I don't compromise much on that one. I've been in those factories and have seen first hand what removing safety devices cause. Mexico has very little regulation but of course, they have 10X accidents that a US plant has. Was so bad that we adopted US safety rules above and beyond what US plants had because of the severe number of accidents that were there (i.e. forced light curtains on EVERY piece of equipment instead of simply installing cheaper, two hand anti-tie down modules to run the equipment).

Personally I don't think you should be sticking your hand in a running machine that can cut if off. Kinda neat that it stops though but I am not a huge fan of the "safety label" culture we have developed. If you are dumb enough to eat a box of rat poison that says POISON on the bottle and has a universally recognized symbol for poison on it then perhaps we don't really want you in the gene pool anyway.

People do dumb stuff all the time. There is a reason that it's called "idiot proofing" a machine. Sometimes, the machine is not running in that it's broke but still "live state". Make a sensor and boom, off goes the hand (or finger). A pneumatic cylinder that is stuck and the operator doesn't know this? He/she reaches in and removes a broken clip or assembly piece and the cylinder now is free to jump forward. Remove the energy by a safety device and the issue is now removed. How much is your hand worth? Is it worth the $950 that it costs to make the machine safe or not? Of course, as long as it's saving money and giving you cheap stuff and as long as you keep your job, doesn't matter much.


Personally, I don't have time to debate this more at the moment and it doesn't matter much anyway, neither side is flexible and changes their views much. I have grass to mow and have not offshored it yet...but am looking for a cheaper way to do it as I currently type this. Maybe I can get the guards removed from the mowers so that we can offer cheaper mowers in the US. Who needs expensive guards anyway.