"There is no moral equivalence between Israel and Hamas"

[JEDIYoda]

Blocking escape to Israel, yes.
If you were in a were in a war with Mexico you would let mexicans just flow into the US? You think borders and walls are just for show?

Exactly!!! The other Arab countries want nothing to do with their Palestinian brothers and sisters.......that is really a shame!!

 

[JEDIYoda]

Netanyahu nailed it. "Here’s the difference between us. We’re using missile defense to protect our civilians, and they’re using their civilians to protect their missiles.”

<-- can`t disagree with that!!

 

[JEDIYoda]

Netanyahu is a total dirtbag. He is personally one of the largest contributors to the continuing instability. Israel badly needs to toss that guy out and get someone who is actually interested in solving the Israeli-Palestinian issue.

For example in this case, Netanyahu knew almost right away that the three individuals who were kidnapped were dead. He decided to conduct a "search" for them anyway, which mostly just involved kicking in doors all over Gaza. He also knew that the kidnappers didn't act on orders from Hamas, but decided to engage in collective punishment anyway.

The kidnapping and murder of those poor people was a heinous crime. Sadly, the response of terrorizing and attacking people who had nothing to do with it is also a heinous crime. It's frankly disgusting to me that someone who is as morally bankrupt as Netanyahu would attempt to talk about how morally superior Israel's actions in this situation are.

oh well!! Ypu know what they say about life..it`s a ____ and then you die..lol

 

[JEDIYoda]

http://forward.com/articles/201764/h...nintended-war/

And by collective punishment I mean that Israel's security operations immediately started going after people that had nothing to do with the crime committed. Not to mention their longstanding policy of attacking the families of those they deem to be terrorists. (for example, if you are found to be engaging in terrorism against Israel one of the first things they will do is bulldoze your parents' house, even if they have nothing to do with you.)


Quote:
"Interested in solving the Israel-Palestinian issue"? You try negotiating with a partner whose stated goal is nothing less than your utter destruction.

This is a fundamental distortion of the Palestinian position that takes the most extreme elements and attributes their views to everyone else. First and foremost, Netanyahu has engaged in aggressive settlement building in occupied territories despite universal worldwide condemnation of those actions as illegal. He is obviously and deliberately attempting to render a separate Palestinian state nonviable.

We should all be able to agree that while the overall conflict is the responsibility of both sides, Netanyahu is helping no one. The sooner he is gone the better for everyone.

There is no way to corroborate that article.....essentially without corroboration it might as well be a blog piece.....even with corroboration I don`t see the issue.....

Let me tell you a secret -- Netanyahu is going nowhere...so sorry!! You should be thankful because the extreme Jewish elements of the government want Israel to do more...

 

[JEDIYoda]

Hamas' charter is pretty clear.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_C...s_about_Israel


Quote:
The charter states that "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories,[2] and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel.[3][4]
...
The preamble states: &#8243;Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it&#8243;

Quote:
First and foremost, Netanyahu has engaged in aggressive settlement building in occupied territories despite universal worldwide condemnation of those actions as illegal. He is obviously and deliberately attempting to render a separate Palestinian state nonviable.

We should all be able to agree that while the overall conflict is the responsibility of both sides, Netanyahu is helping no one. The sooner he is gone the better for everyone.

Palestine has been offered statehood on three separate occasions (2008. 2000, and 1947), and has turned it down each time.

<-- exactly and there is more....

First let me say NOTHING was said to counteract or explain what is bolded since it was said in 2012........what was said before 2012 concerning this does not counter what was said!! I wish I was wrong ......
In 2006 or shortly there after -- Hamas has dropped its call for the destruction of Israel from its manifesto for the Palestinian parliamentary election in a fortnight, a move that brings the group closer to the mainstream Palestinian position of building a state within the boundaries of the occupied territories.

The Islamist faction, responsible for a long campaign of suicide bombings and other attacks on Israelis, still calls for the maintenance of the armed struggle against occupation. But it steps back from Hamas's 1988 charter demanding Israel's eradication and the establishment of a Palestinian state in its place.

The manifesto makes no mention of the destruction of the Jewish state and instead takes a more ambiguous position by saying that Hamas had decided to compete in the elections because it would contribute to "the establishment of an independent state whose capital is Jerusalem".

IMO as long as Hamas is around there will be no chance of peace!
In fact back IN 2012....
Hamas real colors keep appearing and the following is only one example --

Speaking at the weekly Cabinet meeting in Jerusalem, Netanyahu said Israel's Palestinian enemies have proven once again that they are not interested in compromise.

He was referring to comments by Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal, who returned to Gaza on Friday after 45 years of exile. At a rally marking the 25th anniversary of the founding of Hamas, Meshaal vowed Hamas would fight until all of Palestine, including the territory of the State of Israel, is liberated from the Jews.

He reiterated this position at speech Sunday in Gaza. There will be &#8220;no concessions on a single inch of Palestine,&#8221; he declared. He said armed struggle would continue until the liberation of Jerusalem.

 

[cabri]

Lol, and you believe this.?.

They are deliberatly lying to hide the inneficency of their multi billions system, how do they know that they re not a threat given that the range of thoses rockets have considerable variation even when they use the same ones.?.

Take the number posted by docsavage , make a simple arithmetic operation with the number you provided and you ll get the hit rate , that is , 30 x 0.87 = 26.1% , that is lower than the 30% figure i posted.

Dr. Theodore Postol, a professor at MIT, claimed in his Haaretz article on March 31 that contrary to the Defense Ministry claim that the Iron Dome has succeeded in intercepting more than 80 percent of rockets launched into Israeli population centers during November&#8217;s Pillar of Defense operation, the actual proportion never exceeded 10 percent.

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/Is-the-Iron-Dome-effective-308711

Again, you have quite convincingly demonstrated your inability to read/comprehend what you linked to or deliberately taking sound bites/quotes out of the full context. I would suspect the later, given all of your quotes previously.

A full quote of the article is below for anyone who desires to see what a fool/tool Abwx is showing to be. As if not already obvious :biggrin:

Dr. Theodore Postol, a professor at MIT, claimed in his Haaretz article on March 31 that contrary to the Defense Ministry claim that the Iron Dome has succeeded in intercepting more than 80 percent of rockets launched into Israeli population centers during November&#8217;s Pillar of Defense operation, the actual proportion never exceeded 10 percent.

Postol based his claim on video clips of the launches that were shown in the media and on the Internet, as well as on the number of property damage claims submitted to the Treasury&#8217;s Compensation Fund.

He accuses the IDF of concealing the facts by not revealing the location of rockets that fell on Israeli soil that were not intercepted by the Iron Dome, arguing that disclosure of these locations would not pose a security risk. Finally, Postol goes a step further and accuses the government of providing Israeli and US citizens with false information.

This could not be farther from the truth. Postol&#8217;s &#8220;analysis&#8221; of these public video clips and his underestimation of the Iron Dome&#8217;s effectiveness are meaningless and his conclusions are completely baseless.

In those clips, only the Iron Dome&#8217;s trail of smoke can be seen. The Grad rocket that it is about to intercept, however, cannot be seen.

To assess whether the Iron Dome&#8217;s missile successfully hit the Grad rocket, the trajectories of both must be observed, which is possible only through a full sky image obtained from sophisticated security sensors in which both projectiles can be observed simultaneously. This information is never released to the public since it would reveal the IDF&#8217;s discovery and tracking capabilities.

In short, the Israel Air Force, the Defense Ministry and Rafael Advanced Defense Systems have studied each and every interception completely, and the results are conclusive: The Iron Dome&#8217;s success rate is as published.

Postol&#8217;s claim that disclosure of the locations in which Grad missiles escaped Iron Dome interception and hit Israeli soil would not help the enemy improve its accuracy indicates more than anything else his lack of understanding of missile warfare. A barrage of Grad rockets that is aimed at a specific point is liable to strike anywhere up to a kilometer from that point. Although the enemy cannot control where the rocket lands, it has full control over which point it aims the cluster of rockets at and can change it by tilting, raising or lowering the multiple rocket launcher.

Our enemies in Gaza and Lebanon try to pick points that fall right in the center of Israeli cities so that all the cluster rockets fall within the most densely populated areas and cause the maximum number of casualties and damage, but often they are not successful.

Errors made by the enemy in choosing a center point can result in most or even all of the rockets missing population centers and failing to inflict significant damage. Publicizing the exact location of these hits would help the enemy improve its aim and thereby raise the number of casualties and amount of damage. Publicizing this information would endanger the lives and property of Israeli citizens.

Postol argues that Hamas already knows where the points of impacts are, from &#8220;people who could visit these places within the range&#8221; (i.e. spies). I suggest that he try to find the locations that were hit &#8211; then he would realize how hard it is.

In any event, even if that were the case, why should Israel help Hamas by giving it this information on a silver platter just to satisfy a distinguished professor living in peaceful Massachusetts, far from the Gaza rockets? Postol also claims that the high number of property damage claims following Pillar of Defense proves that the Iron Dome&#8217;s success rate must be lower than that reported, since in his opinion it is unlikely that such a small number of hits would cause such a large number of claims. It turns out that he did not bother to compare this number with data from previous attacks, and therefore could not know how many claims are reasonable.

In the Second Lebanon War in 2006, for example, 4,000 rockets were launched into unprotected areas in northern Israel, a quarter of which hit in populated areas. More than 30,000 property damage claims were subsequently submitted.

In Pillar of Defense, 1,500 similar types of rockets were fired into Israel, a third of which hit or would have hit populated areas. A simple calculation shows that if the Iron Dome system were not in place, the number of property claims would have reached 14,400. In actuality, only 3,165 claims for submitted, one-fifth of the number that would be expected if the Iron Dome were not operational &#8211; further evidence that the system has a high interception rate. Just as Balaam in the Book of Numbers tries to curse the Israelites but only blessings come out of his mouth, so too is Postol trying to curse us, but ends up blessing us.

His claim that Israel has not provided the US with accurate data on the Iron Dome&#8217;s performance is ridiculous. Anyone who has had any contact with the US government knows that it would never agree to allocate such a large amount of funding to manufacture Iron Dome systems without carefully checking their performance.

And the US has a state comptroller, too.

Finally, Postol&#8217;s accusation that Israel has been lying to its citizens and to its greatest ally &#8211; the US &#8211; does not even merit a response. To the distinguished professor I say: Those who unjustifiably reject others because of a particular defect, usually suffer from this defect themselves.

In another article; his measurement of success is that the interceptor explodes the warhead on the rocket not an proximity near enough to the rocket to destroy the flight. If the rocket is destroyed over an empty field, it is taken out.


The MIT "prof" (embarrassing) is make speculations/judgement based on only half a deck.

 

[bradly1101]

But who fired the first salvo, and why?

It was Israel who bombed Hamas in retribution for the teenagers' deaths, which Hamas denied. Israel did not expect no response. I believe they wanted this. They're armed to the teeth with American weapons. What better time to flex your muscles than when a new Islamic movement is afoot?

It's sad, religious tribalism.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

But who fired the first salvo, and why?

It was Israel who bombed Hamas in retribution for the teenagers' deaths, which Hamas denied. Israel did not expect no response. I believe they wanted this. They're armed to the teeth with American weapons. What better time to flex your muscles than when a new Islamic movement is afoot?

It's sad, religious tribalism.

I'll tell you what's sad...your complete ignorance of the most basic events surrounding this conflict.

Israel did not bomb Hamas in retribution for the teenagers' deaths as you stated, it was a direct response to a marked escalation in Hamas rocket attacks. The reason Hamas escalated the rocket attacks was because they were unhappy with Israel's collective punishment of Gaza over the teenagers' deaths.

Israeli jets hit targets in Gaza in response to escalation of rocket fire (June 29)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...e73b6a-ff8f-11e3-b8ff-89afd3fad6bd_story.html

 

[Abwx]

Hamas' charter is pretty clear.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant#Statements_about_Israel

And likud charter , likud is netanyaou s party :

The 'Peace & Security' chapter of the 1999 Likud Party platform rejects a Palestinian state.

"The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Likud

So when it s the palestinians it s evil and when the israeli say the same it s holy words.

This show that you are indeed completely biaised.

 

[Abwx]

Again, you have quite convincingly demonstrated your inability to read/comprehend what you linked to or deliberately taking sound bites/quotes out of the full context. I would suspect the later, given all of your quotes previously.

A full quote of the article is below for anyone who desires to see what a fool/tool Abwx is showing to be. As if not already obvious :biggrin:

The rest of the article is the opinion of the israeli army providing numbers that they cant prove otherwise than by asking the US to make a testimony, we can guess that the US will do nothing that israel could find unpleasant, heck , Obama is more of an israeli controled prez than anything else.

As for the zionist current crimes their goal is to kill as much palestinians as possible in a given amount of time, with Netanyaou being coward and hypocritical enough that he dont even take responsability for the very decisions that he s doing, claiming "it s hamas fault" , but we know that zionists are the best specialists when it comes to lliving in denials.

 

[cubby1223]

Here is an example of the "moral equivalence" between Israel and it's Arab neighbors...

Friend of mine back in college (~15 years ago), spent a year studying abroad over in Jordan. One day a fellow classmate has his laptop with him in class, the screen saver comes on, and it's picture after picture of dead people. When my friend asked what the deal was with his screensaver, the guy smiled and said "fucking jews".

If any of you sitting in the comfort of your homes in the U.S. think you have the full understanding of what is really going on over in that region of the world, you're just so full of yourself.

 

[emperus]

Israel accused of war crimes (UK Parliament)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJWNE83j__k&sns=fb

 

[emperus]

We saw what happened when the US tried to enforce a Court Order against Bundy for land the US owned. I just wonder what would be the US civilian response if another nation built settlements on US land claiming it was there own?

 

[Atreus21]

And likud charter , likud is netanyaou s party :





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Likud

So when it s the palestinians it s evil and when the israeli say the same it s holy words.

This show that you are indeed completely biaised.

I didn't say that Netanyahu had no problem with a Palestinian state. I said Hamas remains committed to Israel's destruction.

 

[fskimospy]

I didn't say that Netanyahu had no problem with a Palestinian state. I said Hamas remains committed to Israel's destruction.

And Israel remains committed to Palestine never existing at all. Why do you keep ascribing Hamas's views to all Palestinians? Why ignore Fatah and others?

Israel's policies towards the occupied territories are simply indefensible. Collective punishment is banned by the Geneva Conventions. Settlements in occupied territory violate the UN Charter and the 4th Geneva Convention. The ICJ, the Red Cross, the EU, the UN, etc, etc, have all described Israel's actions in regards to the occupied territories as anywhere from violations of the Geneva Conventions to war crimes.

With that in mind, exactly how do you expect the Palestinians to act? Are they supposed to simply acquiesce to the commission of war crimes?

 

[cubby1223]

With that in mind, exactly how do you expect the Palestinians to act?

I expect them not to launch a barrage of missiles every time they feel slighted. How do you expect Israel to act when there are constant missiles launched at them? How do missile attacks rank with your laundry list of international organizations?

The back & forth rationale can go on forever and never produce a result.

It's going to be a long, long, long time before the two sides can trust each other.

 

[fskimospy]

I expect them not to launch a barrage of missiles every time they feel slighted. How do you expect Israel to act when there are constant missiles launched at them? How do missile attacks rank with your laundry list of international organizations?

The back & forth rationale can go on forever and never produce a result.

It's going to be a long, long, long time before the two sides can trust each other.

And by "feel slighted" you mean "are attacked", correct?

 

[cabri]

And Israel remains committed to Palestine never existing at all. Why do you keep ascribing Hamas's views to all Palestinians? Why ignore Fatah and others?

Israel's policies towards the occupied territories are simply indefensible. Collective punishment is banned by the Geneva Conventions. Settlements in occupied territory violate the UN Charter and the 4th Geneva Convention. The ICJ, the Red Cross, the EU, the UN, etc, etc, have all described Israel's actions in regards to the occupied territories as anywhere from violations of the Geneva Conventions to war crimes.

With that in mind, exactly how do you expect the Palestinians to act? Are they supposed to simply acquiesce to the commission of war crimes?

If Israel wants the destruction of the Palestinians, then why have they returned controlled territory and not instituted a force exodus?

Gaza could be swept clean in a couple of weeks. Allow ships to dock and embark Palestinians. the world feels so concerned about their welfare; other Arab nations will be pleased to take them.


Oops; the Arab nations despise the Palestinians based on past actions and do not want anything to do with them.

So does Israel continue to put up the headaches and control or do what the Arabs would attempted to do them them multiple times. The Palestinians control their destiny

 

[cabri]

And by "feel slighted" you mean "are attacked", correct?

Some one has to take the first step; Israel tried Wed and Hamas refused the action. Why? It did not have any political gain for them. Political points, not lives of the residents are important to them.

 

[cubby1223]

And by "feel slighted" you mean "are attacked", correct?

one side does one thing. the other side does another thing. the first side does something else. then the other side does yet another thing...

you've really cracked the code on this situation! It's for sure *that* side that is wrong!

I don't believe Israel is so committed to wiping out Palestine as you think, so there we have our own difference of opinions. What's the solution? There is none. The two sides will not and cannot trust each other.

 

[fskimospy]

Some one has to take the first step; Israel tried Wed and Hamas refused the action. Why? It did not have any political gain for them. Political points, not lives of the residents are important to them.

How about instead of blaming Hamas for the deaths of Palestinians we blame the people killing Palestinians for the deaths of Palestinians.

I wonder what your view would be if someone conquered America and started displacing us and building settlements where you used to live.

The Palestinians are nowhere close to blameless but that doesn't mean that both sides are equally blameworthy here.

 

[marincounty]

So in this last episode, what were the causalities on both sides?

What were the casualties on both sides in the Iraq wars? Winning a war does not automatically make you the bad guy.
Maybe the Israelis should abandon their precision air strikes, and just randomly lob missiles into Palestinian territory?
Israel is trying to kill terrorists, Hamas is trying to kill any Israeli they can.

 

[CitizenKain]

Here is an example of the "moral equivalence" between Israel and it's Arab neighbors...

Friend of mine back in college (~15 years ago), spent a year studying abroad over in Jordan. One day a fellow classmate has his laptop with him in class, the screen saver comes on, and it's picture after picture of dead people. When my friend asked what the deal was with his screensaver, the guy smiled and said "fucking jews".

If any of you sitting in the comfort of your homes in the U.S. think you have the full understanding of what is really going on over in that region of the world, you're just so full of yourself.

Meanwhile Israeli teens simply post how great it would be kill palestinians on twitter.
https://************/davidsheen/israeli-army-the-next-generation
The *** part is storify dot com
The difference is this actually happened, the other your friend probably made up.

Interesting that Anandtech blocks that link.

 

[bradly1101]

I'll tell you what's sad...your complete ignorance of the most basic events surrounding this conflict.

Israel did not bomb Hamas in retribution for the teenagers' deaths as you stated, it was a direct response to a marked escalation in Hamas rocket attacks. The reason Hamas escalated the rocket attacks was because they were unhappy with Israel's collective punishment of Gaza over the teenagers' deaths.

Israeli jets hit targets in Gaza in response to escalation of rocket fire (June 29)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...e73b6a-ff8f-11e3-b8ff-89afd3fad6bd_story.html

All along Israel has been picking off Palestinians at a much greater rate than they get struck. I was talking about the recent escalation with so many rockets into Israel. That was a retribution for the retribution.

Humans desire power, control and are filled with leftover, ancient territorial instincts that seem to no longer work in our interconnected, interdependent and hopefully humble and peaceful world. Until both sides get power, control and territory there will be conflict. Israel will probably never support a Palestinian state, and Palestine will never support Israel.

Territorial tribalism. Will man ever evolve?

Plenty of people don't just see Israel attacking, they see that American made weapons are used. And Hamas is apparently supplied by Iran. They are waging a war within another war. Our war by proxy.

 

[emperus]

What were the casualties on both sides in the Iraq wars? Winning a war does not automatically make you the bad guy.
Maybe the Israelis should abandon their precision air strikes, and just randomly lob missiles into Palestinian territory?
Israel is trying to kill terrorists, Hamas is trying to kill any Israeli they can.

So winning wars equates to killing more civilians than the other side? What does the civilian casualty number have to do with winning a war? Also how many "terrorists" have been killed versus "civilians"?

I just find it odd people don't try to see things from the other perspective. You have an occupying force that is militarily superior by 10 folds and funded by other wealthy countries, who is systematically taking your land and forcing you and your people into abject poverty. What would you do in that situation to stop it? What resources do you have to even begin to oppose the occupation?

Unless you're arguing might makes right. I don't see how Israel is right in this situation.