"There is no moral equivalence between Israel and Hamas"

[JEDIYoda]

Even gaza s birth certificates can only be issued by israel, i wont even talk of economical and borders control issues...

So whose ass are you blowing smoke up?
That's not true......here let me site a few webpages --
http://travel.state.gov/content/visas/english/fees/reciprocity-by-country/IS.html
The Palestinian Authority (Gaza And West Bank):.

Generally available for those born in the West Bank and Gaza. Applications for Birth Certificates for Palestinian residents of the West Bank and Gaza must be submitted to the Palestinian Authority Ministry of Interior office located nearest the applicant's place of residence. Non-residents of the West Bank and Gaza may approach the nearest overseas representative of the PLO to request a birth certificate or write to the Palestinian Authority Ministry of Interior office nearest their birth place..

The Consulate General in Jerusalem accepts birth extracts issued by the Palestinian Authority for Palestinian applicants born before 1948 within the pre-1967 boundaries of Israel, but who are now resident overseas or in the West Bank and Gaza..

The Interior Ministry of the Palestinian National Authority is the branch of the Palestinian National Authority (PNA) cabinet in charge of the security and statistics of the Palestinian people. The Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics (PCBS) is a sub-branch of the Interior Ministry that has the responsibility for the population and economic statistics of the Palestinian territories. The Preventive Security Service (PSS) is the primary security branch of the Interior Ministry. The PSS has a force of 30,000.

 

[Newell Steamer]

JEDIYoda

<-- says you?? Israel belongs where ever they are at....I see you have no solution to where Israel does belong...

I never said I have, nor care to have a solution. Especially when it involves a rabid crazed dog, diseased in the mind, and perfectly OK with innocent casualties.

<-- you truly have no clue do you??

See above comment - I call them as I see them.

I don't think you seem to get it JEDIYoda, I don't care that Israel doesn't care - because I've accepted that Israel will do whatever the fuck it wants. So, why waste my breath is my point.

Why even bother trying to stop someone who bulldozes over civilians?

Each time a civilian victim is presented, it's;
- well, their leaders did this to them
- well, they were terrorists
- well, they didn't move out of the way
- well, we have the right to defend ourselve
- well, we aren't the worst
- well, you sound pretty anti-semitic

It has never been; "Oh, yeah, we were pretty heavy handed,...".

So, why even bother arguing against Israel? The answer is; you don't.

 

[JEDIYoda]

For more accuracy i would add that whoever is a racist and a supremacist will automaticaly side with racists/supremacists.

It is obvious that people from the US, and elsewhere, who support the zionists continual land grabs are mainly racists/supremacists whose "opinion" is generaly shaped by zionists propagandists like the one whose worthless paper is discussed on this thread.

Notice than nobody did comment on the quotes i posted and it s not by chance.

You must really be desperate playing the racists/supremacists card...now that is super funny!!

 

[JEDIYoda]

What is sure is that many people that hang by there are either brainless or are deliberatly lying about israel s supposed moral ground by refuting the israelis leaders statements.

Do people who support the zionists know better than said israelis leaders.??..

So lets get all moral..ok?
List all the times that the Palesitnians or even Hamas has warned the Israeli`s to move or find shelter because they were going to attack or lob missles at them?

There is nothing moral about war......so get over it.....

 

[JEDIYoda]

A last quote from former prime minister ehud barak that say it all :


Quote:
"I would have joined a terrorist organization."
-- Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.

He nailed it...

No he did not nail it!!

He made an accurate statement that applies to almost everybody -- based on your up bringing and circumstances that is what he would have done......had he been born a Palestinians....
Had he been born an American he would not have took a plane to Palestine and became a terrorist...
Had he been born in Graet britian he would not have become a Palestinians terrorist!

That is just misguided the way you are slanting what was said --

Had most of been born Palestinians we would have became terrorists. why?
Because that is how we would have been brought up. why?
Because Palestinian children in their schools are taught from the first day that Israel is wrong and to hate Israeli children.....go figure!!

His statement has absolutely nothing to do with who is right or who is wrong......so get over it!

Vladimir Putin if he was born an Russian American would not have flew to Russia to join the KGB....what a crock of caca you are spewing!!

 

[Abwx]

You must really be desperate playing the racists/supremacists card...now that is super funny!!

You still didnt answer if you agree with the israeli prime ministers sayings who are explicitly stating what their policy is , i post a link to my post, but i guess that who stay voluntarly silent is indeed supporting thoses supremacists statements.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=36530156&postcount=8

 

[JEDIYoda]

Land looters using an anecdtot as a general rule and then drawing conclusions without even mentionning that israel is continualy looting land by means of force.

Really a propaganda" that will surely suit the supremacists, as for moral ground, well, let s ask an israeli parliament member who stated this a few days ago :


Quote:
Ayelet Shaked represents the far-right Jewish Home party in the Knesset. This means she is well to the right of Benyamin Netanyahu, just in case you thought such a thing was not possible.

On Monday she quoted this on her Facebook page: &#8220;Behind every terrorist stand dozens of men and women, without whom he could not engage in terrorism. They are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads. Now this also includes the mothers of the martyrs, who send them to hell with flowers and kisses. They should follow their sons, nothing would be more just. They should go, as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes. Otherwise, more little snakes will be raised there."

Advocating for mass murders of children and their mothers, dubbed "snakes"....

And then let s check the degree of morality of about all israeli prime ministers since this state started its miserable existence :


Quote:
"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
-- Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.

Quote:
"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to."
-- Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.




Quote:
"The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever."
-- Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.

Quote:
"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."
-- Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.

Quote:
"[Israel will] create in the course of the next 10 or 20 years conditions which would attract natural and voluntary migration of the refugees from the Gaza Strip and the west Bank to Jordan. To achieve this we have to come to agreement with King Hussein and not with Yasser Arafat."
-- Yitzhak Rabin (a "Prince of Peace" by Clinton's standards), explaining his method of ethnically cleansing the occupied land without stirring a world outcry. (Quoted in David Shipler in the New York Times, 04/04/1983 citing Meir Cohen's remarks to the Knesset's foreign affairs and defense committee on March 16.)

Quote:

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

Quote:
"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.



Quote:
"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.

"Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial." -- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online

Proves what I might add?
Proves nothing.....you left out the context as well as the fact that you are grasping for anything you can find to make the Palestinians and Hamas look like the oppressed......the ones who are taken advantage of.....in your blindness you display the very reason the Israeli`s need to be vigilant. So that misguided people like you will not be able to mobilize the world into blindly believing your lies and half truths....

 

[Abwx]

No he did not nail it!!

He made an accurate statement that applies to almost everybody -- based on your up bringing and circumstances that is what he would have done......had he been born a Palestinians....


Had he been born an American he would not have took a plane to Palestine and became a terrorist...
Had he been born in Graet britian he would not have become a Palestinians terrorist!

That is just misguided the way you are slanting what was said --

Had most of been born Palestinians we would have became terrorists. why?
Because that is how we would have been brought up. why?
Because Palestinian children in their schools are taught from the first day that Israel is wrong and to hate Israeli children.....go figure!!

His statement has absolutely nothing to do with who is right or who is wrong......so get over it!

Vladimir Putin if he was born an Russian American would not have flew to Russia to join the KGB....what a crock of caca you are spewing!!

What he said is that the palestinians acted and are acting as would do any sane human being, that s all, he didnt talk of anyting else, all the rest in your post are pure speculation, we dont know for other situations what would had been his answer.

As i said you know better than him, isnt it, because at least he was frank about it while you are deliberatly trying to misguide the general public about your own real thoughts but reading your non sense it is easy to deduct that you are yourself a supremacist.

 

[Harabec]

"We need somewhere to put our people" doesn't seem like a very good justification for illegally occupying land.

Never said it was...I don't like the idea of pissing off our neighbors by intentionally harassing them either.
However, it may be ironic if in the next 30-40 years we'll all be living next to each other, window to window, anyway due to massive increases in population density (as I did not mean just us - but also 4 million pals) making the idea of borders between us largely irrelevant.

Me, I just hope we'll all get along. Don't know how or when.

 

[Abwx]

Proves what I might add?
Proves nothing.....you left out the context as well as the fact that you are grasping for anything you can find to make the Palestinians and Hamas look like the oppressed......the ones who are taken advantage of.....in your blindness you display the very reason the Israeli`s need to be vigilant. So that misguided people like you will not be able to mobilize the world into blindly believing your lies and half truths....

These doesnt need a context since these are declarations about a general and long term policy.

Now if you look at the israelis actions you can clearly see that they are an enforcements of thoses statements.

As for lies and half truths, well , i let the people who have some insight to decide who between you and me is producing irrelevancies...

 

[JEDIYoda]

You still didnt answer if you agree with the israeli prime ministers sayings who are explicitly stating what their policy is , i post a link to my post, but i guess that who stay voluntarly silent is indeed supporting thoses supremacists statements.

I cannot comment on something that you posted saying something was said without knowing the full context and why it was said.........

When you are a tiny country like Israel you have to wake up everyday realizing that the world is not your friend! You cannot allow yourself to become so complacent that you get over run or you lose your will to defend yourself!! You have to wake up understanding that given the chance once again the Arab worked would unite to do battle against Israel if they thought they had a chance to win.......so in the context you claim these statements were made -- NO!! I do not agree with them.

As basic statements of course I agree with them..after I am a Jew@!
Before we go there of course there are Jews who disagree with those statememnts.

Yet when it comes to the nation of Israel almost all Jews agree in the self defense of Israel....go figure....

technically and it does not matter who has since recognized the Palestinian people.......they are still the people of Palestine.....

We found these very same war of words on these forums back in 2005, 2006, 2007......I made a good friend of somebody who totally disagreed with me and I with him -- LemonLaw was his name!!

 

[Harabec]

Hamas has released a video (meant for Israeli eyes really) showing footage of the 2011 AT missile firing on a school bus. A 16 year old was killed.
It says at the beginning "You remember".

I honestly think Hamas and its more active brother, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, are a cancer inside the palestinian society. Without it they could have a chance for a normal life and we could move on to build a real future. Until then, most attempts at "peace" will fail because Hamas and Fatah don't share the same ideals, but they are seen as a single body when negotiating.

 

[Abwx]

I cannot comment on something that you posted saying something was said without knowing the full context and why it was said.........

When you are a tiny country like Israel you have to wake up everyday realizing that the world is not your friend! You cannot allow yourself to become so complacent that you get over run or you lose your will to defend yourself!! You have to wake up understanding that given the chance once again the Arab worked would unite to do battle against Israel if they thought they had a chance to win.......so in the context you claim these statements were made -- NO!! I do not agree with them.

As basic statements of course I agree with them..after I am a Jew@!
Before we go there of course there are Jews who disagree with those statememnts.

Yet when it comes to the nation of Israel almost all Jews agree in the self defense of Israel....go figure....

technically and it does not matter who has since recognized the Palestinian people.......they are still the people of Palestine.....

We found these very same war of words on these forums back in 2005, 2006, 2007......I made a good friend of somebody who totally disagreed with me and I with him -- LemonLaw was his name!!

Thank you for this post and for being frank, much appreciated, and we know that it s not easy for us all to be up to the human being status.

Be assured that i m not in the slightest way an anti semitic as some might think in this forum, i was in school with jews(actualy they were a majority in my class when i was 15-18), i had scores of jew professors and comrades, my sister got helped by jews in her career on several instances and i have personnal relations with scores of jews to this day.

 

[Abwx]

I honestly think Hamas and its more active brother, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, are a cancer inside the palestinian society. Without it they could have a chance for a normal life and we could move on to build a real future. Until then, most attempts at "peace" will fail because Hamas and Fatah don't share the same ideals, but they are seen as a single body when negotiating.

Hamas took the upper hand because the corrupted Fatah became nothing else than a sub contractor of the israeli government, also dont forget that Hamas creation was supported at the time by the israelis as a mean to weaken the Fatah....

Hamas rise to power is due to the Oslo agreements being used as mean by israel to gain time but with no intent to really end the conflict, once Itzhak Rabin was assassinated the situation returned to "business as usual", but still even Hamas is reasonnable, need i to remind you that under big pressures their current leader, Khaled Meashal, did approve a s palestinian state based on the 67 borders..?..

So what are the israeli griefs against Hamas since he finaly accepted what was were the Oslo agrrements as a basis for definitive negociations..?.

Isnt israel refusal of such a basis an aknowledgment that they dont want to negociate at all..??.

 

[Phokus]

"There is no moral equivalence between Israel and Hamas"

Israel intentionally starves Palestinians (or as Israel euphemistically calls it, 'putting them on diets'), steals their land, and uses US tax payer funded money to kill them with high tech weaponry and you think Israel is the 'good guys' here?

 

[JEDIYoda]

As for lies and half truths, well , i let the people who have some insight to decide who between you and me is producing irrelevancies...

sounds good but the truth is what you are saying and hoping is that those who are pro-Palestinian and Pro-Hamas will post on this thread in support of your misguided opinions on this whole Israeli/Palestinian/Hamas thing!

Let me say that something needs to be done -- in fact several things need to be done!

Israel needs to be allowed to preserve their heritage/race and regulate who they want to enter their country!

We need to do something about the Palestinian people and more importantly those who need food and shelter and clean water.
I have been all for a 2 state solution. Yet I have always said -- the Palesinian`s are their own worse enemy! Why?
What group of people in their right mind would elect a terrorist organization like Hamas to lead them and provide for them?

Then we have other players in this such as ABBAS and a few lurkers.......

The bottom line is the Palestinians or the people who are called Palestinians need to take control and responsibility for themselves and sit down with the World and Israel and say hey -- we understand that our Arab brothers want nothing to do with us. They don`t!! If they did there would be no Palestinian problem because they would be welcomed to integrate into other Arab societies. Or the Arab nations would set aside land with a working infrastructure such as electricity and water for their Arab brothers and sisters!

In 2006 or shortly there after -- Hamas has dropped its call for the destruction of Israel from its manifesto for the Palestinian parliamentary election in a fortnight, a move that brings the group closer to the mainstream Palestinian position of building a state within the boundaries of the occupied territories.
The Islamist faction, responsible for a long campaign of suicide bombings and other attacks on Israelis, still calls for the maintenance of the armed struggle against occupation. But it steps back from Hamas's 1988 charter demanding Israel's eradication and the establishment of a Palestinian state in its place.

The manifesto makes no mention of the destruction of the Jewish state and instead takes a more ambiguous position by saying that Hamas had decided to compete in the elections because it would contribute to "the establishment of an independent state whose capital is Jerusalem".

IMO as long as Hamas is around there will be no chance of peace!
In fact back IN 2012....
Hamas real colors keep appearing and the following is only one example --

Speaking at the weekly Cabinet meeting in Jerusalem, Netanyahu said Israel's Palestinian enemies have proven once again that they are not interested in compromise.

He was referring to comments by Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal, who returned to Gaza on Friday after 45 years of exile. At a rally marking the 25th anniversary of the founding of Hamas, Meshaal vowed Hamas would fight until all of Palestine, including the territory of the State of Israel, is liberated from the Jews.

He reiterated this position at speech Sunday in Gaza. There will be “no concessions on a single inch of Palestine,” he declared. He said armed struggle would continue until the liberation of Jerusalem.


so who is lying here....perhaps both sides.....hmmm

 

[JEDIYoda]

Israel intentionally starves Palestinians (or as Israel euphemistically calls it, 'putting them on diets'), steals their land, and uses US tax payer funded money to kill them with high tech weaponry and you think Israel is the 'good guys' here?

You think its that cut and dried.....
I believe if hamas was not involved there would be a 2 state solution favorable for both sides!!
It is a proven fact that almost anything Israel lets into Gaza first touches Hamas hands and can be routed to hamas supportrs and then to the people who need these items the most.....whats wrong with this picture?
The people who need these items the most should get them first -- that is if Hamas truly cared about the people it technically governs!

In fact perhaps the Israeli`s should demand other groups than Hamas get these items first....difficult situation!
Palestinian land.......I am sure you would agree there is no state of Palestine and as such their still technically is no group of people called the Palestinians.........

As usual you over look the reasons why....but that's OK..your not interested in the reasons why....

 

[Harabec]

So what are the israeli griefs against Hamas since he finaly accepted what was were the Oslo agrrements as a basis for definitive negociations..?.

Isnt israel refusal of such a basis an aknowledgment that they dont want to negociate at all..??.

See this...

Yet I have always said -- the Palesinian`s are their own worse enemy!

And the rest of the post.
Hamas has been in power for years. It could have rebuilt Gaza instead of making rockets and smuggled food and other goods instead of weapons. It chose not to.

 

[Abwx]

See this...



And the rest of the post.

Terrible post of yours, really...

 

[Cozarkian]

I am sure you would agree there is no state of Palestine and as such their still technically is no group of people called the Palestinians.........

There is no state called Seminolia either, but the group of people called Seminoles still exist.

 

[Abwx]

He was referring to comments by Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal, who returned to Gaza on Friday after 45 years of exile. At a rally marking the 25th anniversary of the founding of Hamas, Meshaal vowed Hamas would fight until all of Palestine, including the territory of the State of Israel, is liberated from the Jews.

He reiterated this position at speech Sunday in Gaza. There will be &#8220;no concessions on a single inch of Palestine,&#8221; he declared. He said armed struggle would continue until the liberation of Jerusalem.


so who is lying here....perhaps both sides.....hmmm

Like the zionists prime minister i quoted let s quote Khaled Mechaal as well,
notice that i had to rely on the french page of WIKIPEDIA because his statements are not in the english page despite being all documented, one has to wonder why; i put the quote and then a translation of mine :

« Si Israël reconnait nos droits et s'engage à se retirer de tous les territoires occupés, le Hamas, et avec lui l'ensemble du peuple palestinien, décideront de mettre un terme à la résistance armée».

If israel recognize our rights and agree to retire from all occupied territories, the Hamas , as well as the whole palestinian people, will decide to end the armed resistance.

Le 10 janvier 2007, il reconnaît implicitement l'existence de l'État d'Israël3, tout en admettant que l'absence d'un État palestinien est problématique: « Il va rester un État qui s'appelle Israël, c'est un fait. Le problème, ce n'est pas l'existence d'une entité qui s'appelle Israël. Le problème, c'est que l'État palestinien n'existe pas ».

On january 10 2007, he recognize implicitly the existence of israel while admitting that the non existence of a palestinian state is problematic :
"A state called israel will stay, it is a fact, the problem is not the existence of an entity called israel, the problem is that the palestinian state doesnt exist."

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaled_Mechaal

Doesnt seem to me that he s advocting neither for murdering or expelling the jews...


On another site :

«Nous ne sommes pas des tueurs fanatiques. Nous ne sommes pas des gens assoiffés de sang, conclut Mechaal. Nous ne sommes pas contre les Israéliens sous prétexte qu'ils ont une foi différente, ou qu'ils sont d'une race différente. Notre problème avec eux, c'est qu'ils occupent notre terre. Quand l'occupation sera terminée, nous &#339;uvrerons en fonction de nos valeurs et de notre éthique (...) Et ces valeurs sont la démocratie, la justice, les droits de l'Homme et le respect de la diversité de notre monde.»
​

http://www.slate.fr/story/72733/khaled-mechaal-chef-hamas-nous-ne-sommes-pas-tueurs-fanatiques

We are not fanatical killers, we are not bloodthirsty people , (is concluding Mechaal), we are not against israelis under the pretense that they have a different faith, or that they are from a diffrent ethnicity.
Our problem with them is that they are occupying our land.
When occupation end we ll work according to our values and our ethics...
And thoses values are democracy, justice, human rights and the respect of the diversity of our world.

 

[shira]

Ever visit Mount Rushmore?

The bold is pretty much stated - by a US park ranger.

Point being; we've acknowledged we've done wrong to the Native Americans. Israel couldn't give a flying fuck about dead innocent people - since they brought it upon themselves, of course.

edit: couldn't

So if Israel states "We've done wrong to Palestinians," them it's OK for Israel to continue to keep the land they occupy, just like you apparently think it's OK for America to continue to occupy Native American land?

 

[shira]

Terrible post of yours, really...

It's very telling that you avoided responding to his point about what Hamas could have been doing all of these years.

 

[shira]

If israel recognize our rights and agree to retire from all occupied territories, the Hamas , as well as the whole palestinian people, will decide to end the armed resistance.

So you think that Israel should do everything without getting a shred of anything at the same time in return?

Why shouldn't Hamas and the Palestinian people give Israel what it wants at the same time Israel gives Hamas and the Palestinians what they want?

 

[OutHouse]

Do you support their racists and supremacists statements.?.

Looks like you support the Palestinian's, are you a terrorist.