I will somewhat agree with someone way up there who said my post is exagerration, but it's hyperbole with a point. And maybe I should have prefaced my thoughts because there's some misunderstanding... I do not hate Europe. I appreciate Europe and our historical ties are significant. We share more commonalities than differences and Europeans are important allies. But just as I would face and question problems I see in a friend, the same goes for Europe.
Many of those problems stem for historical traditions and customs, seized on by Elites, and pushed through by a collusive media. Whereas the US is an extremely independent nation with individualism ingrained in our national character, Europe still hasn't shaken the old principles that cling to dark corners of her psyche. The ideas that man is a sacrificial means to the ends of others and that society is an end in itself manifests in the European view of the nature of man and government. The subtle yet primitive attitude that any freedom people enjoy is theirs by favor of the state, by permission of the society, still linger. This is why the Elite agenda dominates the European landscape, and this is why they cannot understand -and even fear- an assertive United States.
The Elites have the power in Europe and see America as the next great challenge... but because of their history, Europe was ripe for Elitist domination. Such a thing could never happen in the United States. Not yet.
The Elites are ashamed of the US. We need to be more like them (Europe). We're rude and crude. We're brash and arrogant. American values are low-brow... you know, all that "frontier" stuff about patriotism, faith, apple pie, and self-reliant rugged individualism. The Elites have a nervous tic that kicks in whenever the subject of American greatness comes up. And forget what you've heard about Europeans disliking Bush, not our people. Not true- Bush is seen as a symbol of America, with all her ugly policies and all. Besides, who are the people who elected this guy: American citizens... obviously they are very, very bad!
The Euro-Elites (along with American Liberal Elites) aim to tie the America giant down. Why? Because their view of man and the world is so completely out of touch with reality that they see the US as the biggest threat. It's also because Europe is weak and scared, as well as poisonously jealous. They have been telling themselves for years that we're the stupiest bunch of people on the planet, yet somehow we're a thriving success... it drives them insane with bitterness to see such low-level cowboys with our simpleton concepts prosper- and threaten their ideals in the process.
The problem with Europe is, they're just not American enough
Many of those problems stem for historical traditions and customs, seized on by Elites, and pushed through by a collusive media. Whereas the US is an extremely independent nation with individualism ingrained in our national character, Europe still hasn't shaken the old principles that cling to dark corners of her psyche. The ideas that man is a sacrificial means to the ends of others and that society is an end in itself manifests in the European view of the nature of man and government. The subtle yet primitive attitude that any freedom people enjoy is theirs by favor of the state, by permission of the society, still linger. This is why the Elite agenda dominates the European landscape, and this is why they cannot understand -and even fear- an assertive United States.
The Elites have the power in Europe and see America as the next great challenge... but because of their history, Europe was ripe for Elitist domination. Such a thing could never happen in the United States. Not yet.
The Elites are ashamed of the US. We need to be more like them (Europe). We're rude and crude. We're brash and arrogant. American values are low-brow... you know, all that "frontier" stuff about patriotism, faith, apple pie, and self-reliant rugged individualism. The Elites have a nervous tic that kicks in whenever the subject of American greatness comes up. And forget what you've heard about Europeans disliking Bush, not our people. Not true- Bush is seen as a symbol of America, with all her ugly policies and all. Besides, who are the people who elected this guy: American citizens... obviously they are very, very bad!
The Euro-Elites (along with American Liberal Elites) aim to tie the America giant down. Why? Because their view of man and the world is so completely out of touch with reality that they see the US as the biggest threat. It's also because Europe is weak and scared, as well as poisonously jealous. They have been telling themselves for years that we're the stupiest bunch of people on the planet, yet somehow we're a thriving success... it drives them insane with bitterness to see such low-level cowboys with our simpleton concepts prosper- and threaten their ideals in the process.
The problem with Europe is, they're just not American enough
Hayabusa Rider
Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
- Jan 26, 2000
- 50,879
- 4,268
- 126
Originally posted by: cwjerome
I will somewhat agree with someone way up there who said my post is exagerration, but it's hyperbole with a point. And maybe I should have prefaced my thoughts because there's some misunderstanding... I do not hate Europe. I appreciate Europe and our historical ties are significant. We share more commonalities than differences and Europeans are important allies. But just as I would face and question problems I see in a friend, the same goes for Europe.
Many of those problems stem for historical traditions and customs, seized on by Elites, and pushed through by a collusive media. Whereas the US is an extremely independent nation with individualism ingrained in our national character, Europe still hasn't shaken the old principles that cling to dark corners of her psyche. The ideas that man is a sacrificial means to the ends of others and that society is an end in itself manifests in the European view of the nature of man and government. The subtle yet primitive attitude that any freedom people enjoy is theirs by favor of the state, by permission of the society, still linger. This is why the Elite agenda dominates the European landscape, and this is why they cannot understand -and even fear- an assertive United States.
The Elites have the power in Europe and see America as the next great challenge... but because of their history, Europe was ripe for Elitist domination. Such a thing could never happen in the United States. Not yet.
The Elites are ashamed of the US. We need to be more like them (Europe). We're rude and crude. We're brash and arrogant. American values are low-brow... you know, all that "frontier" stuff about patriotism, faith, apple pie, and self-reliant rugged individualism. The Elites have a nervous tic that kicks in whenever the subject of American greatness comes up. And forget what you've heard about Europeans disliking Bush, not our people. Not true- Bush is seen as a symbol of America, with all her ugly policies and all. Besides, who are the people who elected this guy: American citizens... obviously they are very, very bad!
The Euro-Elites (along with American Liberal Elites) aim to tie the America giant down. Why? Because their view of man and the world is so completely out of touch with reality that they see the US as the biggest threat. It's also because Europe is weak and scared, as well as poisonously jealous. They have been telling themselves for years that we're the stupiest bunch of people on the planet, yet somehow we're a thriving success... it drives them insane with bitterness to see such low-level cowboys with our simpleton concepts prosper- and threaten their ideals in the process.
The problem with Europe is, they're just not American enough
I must say you project yourself onto others very well. So you spent lots of time in Europe. What was it about them that you can objectively say in your experience makes you able to say these things?
Guys, I think cwjerome is really a liberal who's bent on destroying the image of the right by taking on this ridiculous persona and spewing this laughable propoganda. Well, um props to him then...
I hate for my debut post to be a disagreement, but as a cynical, pesimistic and generally unpatriotic UK teenager, I feel I should speak out against your initial post. You make a point that American citizens, unlike Europeans, are not simply passive spectators to authoritarianism. I dare you to look back upon the huge protests that Parliament Square and indeed large portions of London has played host to over the past few years, notwithstanding the visit of your President, the War in Iraq, and tuition fees to name but a few. In fact, there is another mass rally planned for March against the continuing occupation of Iraq which I will be attending. We, the British people, by and large, are currently in a dilemma, because since Blair came to power in 1997, much of the electorate has been highly displeased with a huge number of policy introductions, and also simply the ways in which our government and PM dealt with specific unplanned issues. I think I speak for the majority when I say we desperately want to vote out Blair and install a PM who holds a true ideology, whatever that may be. Again, I believe I speak for the electorate when I say that we are struggling to do so because there simply is no alternative government at the moment. The UK is a politically aware country, well informed on global issues, and with a population which frequently exercises its right to protest. I could quote many carefully selected examples of where America doesn't exactly follow suit, by and large.
Yet you talk about this in relation to authoritarianism. The UK boasts a liberal democracy not unlike that of the United States, except debatably out legislature and executive are more connected than yours, and we lack a written constitution, instead preferring conventions which have served us well up to now. In fact, it is this which has enabled the UK to adapt its unwritten constitution well over the years, especially since the change from ruling over the Commonwealth. I fail to see what authoritarianism you are referring to. In the UK we have a two-and-a-half, debatably two, debatably three party system. Our governments have set limits of how much they can spend on election campaigns to limit the corruption, bribery and behind the scenes corporate handouts that occur all too frequently in the United States. The United States has a definite two party system and the results of the last two elections, in my opinion, were incorrect; a belief substantiated by reasonable evidence, may I add. I can only see hypocrisy when Americans refer to authoritarianism in Europe.
I am afraid I have limited time, so I will skip to a point which I could barely believe my eyes when reading. We are not repulsed by your religion - In fact, we share your religion (not me personally, I'm an atheist). We are not repulsed by your guns, but I believe the fact you deem it necessary to carry firearms a terrible sign. I'm sure you would spout "liberty" as you've always been told, but there's a difference between liberty and pure danger. I won't get into this argument right now because of time restraints. I can't believe you refer to us as elites, bossing the US around, when the US is the one with all the power and the riches. The US is the one who threatened France with economic sanctions when it disagreed with the US and threatened to use its vito. The US is the one policing the world, thinking it needs to give every country the "gift" of a liberal democracy, whether it likes it or not. Even the concept of imposing liberal democracies on countries just relieved of dictatorships is incredible - sometimes it's the dictatorships that are holding these unstable countries and factions together, even if the regimes seem harsh to you and me. I sincerely believe a lot more blood will be spilled in Iraq than could have ever been possible with the UN carefully watching Hussein's actions.
We Europeans are not bitter over decay, high unemployment and a loss of prestige. None of that is true. We are bitter about the US "ELITE", the US strutting its imperialist muscle, the US which thinks it knows better than every other country on the face of the world. The US which ignores the UN. The US which believes its sole system of government is superior. The US which doesn't care about the fact that in say 40 years global warming will be having absolutely devastating consequences for humanity (the US which refuses to join the Kyoto protocol, whilst countries like the UK pledge to attempt to exceed Kyoto targets). The US doesn't seem to understand that it is the largest emittor of greenhouse gases and that, at this rate, it won't be long before we render the world uninhabitable. The US is the one strugging the muscle and waving the stick. Europe has no stick to wave - give me some examples of where Europe has told the US what to do and actually succeeded?
I think you really need to start watching some world news channels and actually experience life outside of the brainwashing that the American people have been subject to. I'm not a member of Greenpeace. I'm not a member of the Communist Party. I'm just your average UK teenager, a believer in the centre form of government (at the moment I believe in a slightly right wing method for a left wing solution) and I'm against the war. I'm not a partiuarly radical person.
I'm not saying I expect you to agree with everything I've said - I don't believe a forum post will ever change people's well considered beliefs. But I hope you can appreciate that some other people see things differently to you.
Yet you talk about this in relation to authoritarianism. The UK boasts a liberal democracy not unlike that of the United States, except debatably out legislature and executive are more connected than yours, and we lack a written constitution, instead preferring conventions which have served us well up to now. In fact, it is this which has enabled the UK to adapt its unwritten constitution well over the years, especially since the change from ruling over the Commonwealth. I fail to see what authoritarianism you are referring to. In the UK we have a two-and-a-half, debatably two, debatably three party system. Our governments have set limits of how much they can spend on election campaigns to limit the corruption, bribery and behind the scenes corporate handouts that occur all too frequently in the United States. The United States has a definite two party system and the results of the last two elections, in my opinion, were incorrect; a belief substantiated by reasonable evidence, may I add. I can only see hypocrisy when Americans refer to authoritarianism in Europe.
I am afraid I have limited time, so I will skip to a point which I could barely believe my eyes when reading. We are not repulsed by your religion - In fact, we share your religion (not me personally, I'm an atheist). We are not repulsed by your guns, but I believe the fact you deem it necessary to carry firearms a terrible sign. I'm sure you would spout "liberty" as you've always been told, but there's a difference between liberty and pure danger. I won't get into this argument right now because of time restraints. I can't believe you refer to us as elites, bossing the US around, when the US is the one with all the power and the riches. The US is the one who threatened France with economic sanctions when it disagreed with the US and threatened to use its vito. The US is the one policing the world, thinking it needs to give every country the "gift" of a liberal democracy, whether it likes it or not. Even the concept of imposing liberal democracies on countries just relieved of dictatorships is incredible - sometimes it's the dictatorships that are holding these unstable countries and factions together, even if the regimes seem harsh to you and me. I sincerely believe a lot more blood will be spilled in Iraq than could have ever been possible with the UN carefully watching Hussein's actions.
We Europeans are not bitter over decay, high unemployment and a loss of prestige. None of that is true. We are bitter about the US "ELITE", the US strutting its imperialist muscle, the US which thinks it knows better than every other country on the face of the world. The US which ignores the UN. The US which believes its sole system of government is superior. The US which doesn't care about the fact that in say 40 years global warming will be having absolutely devastating consequences for humanity (the US which refuses to join the Kyoto protocol, whilst countries like the UK pledge to attempt to exceed Kyoto targets). The US doesn't seem to understand that it is the largest emittor of greenhouse gases and that, at this rate, it won't be long before we render the world uninhabitable. The US is the one strugging the muscle and waving the stick. Europe has no stick to wave - give me some examples of where Europe has told the US what to do and actually succeeded?
I think you really need to start watching some world news channels and actually experience life outside of the brainwashing that the American people have been subject to. I'm not a member of Greenpeace. I'm not a member of the Communist Party. I'm just your average UK teenager, a believer in the centre form of government (at the moment I believe in a slightly right wing method for a left wing solution) and I'm against the war. I'm not a partiuarly radical person.
I'm not saying I expect you to agree with everything I've said - I don't believe a forum post will ever change people's well considered beliefs. But I hope you can appreciate that some other people see things differently to you.
aceadrian1, when I talk about a penchant for tolerating authoritarianism, I'm not saying there's no mass protests. I'm saying that a long feudalistic history in Europe has made the general societies more accepting of state power and being ruled. There's no doubt most are very democratic, but compared to America and the values birthed by our very different history, Europeans seem more willing to vote themselves into slavery to the state. That said, I do believe the UK is perhaps the most resistant European power to this mindset, and has had *some* turn-arounds in this area in the past 10 years or so (more privitization, less regs, etc).
I do strongly disagree with you over religion. Western Europe is much less religious, and to think the European Elites don't frown upon America's religiousness is pure ignorance or evasion. As far as the Elite label I'm not talking about power or riches. I'm talking about an attitude and philosophy that's prevailent on the Left. Part of that is something you mentioned -the UN and Kyoto- and the orgasmic adulation Elites have for the UN and other NGO/international protocal/conventions UN/Elites .
I think I'm decently knowledgable on world affairs and news... and I often wonder at the mass media in Europe, I have no idea how some astonishingly biased publications are so widely circulated and actually called "news." You have to admit, the Fleet Street crowd are a pretty crazy bunch
I do strongly disagree with you over religion. Western Europe is much less religious, and to think the European Elites don't frown upon America's religiousness is pure ignorance or evasion. As far as the Elite label I'm not talking about power or riches. I'm talking about an attitude and philosophy that's prevailent on the Left. Part of that is something you mentioned -the UN and Kyoto- and the orgasmic adulation Elites have for the UN and other NGO/international protocal/conventions UN/Elites .
I think I'm decently knowledgable on world affairs and news... and I often wonder at the mass media in Europe, I have no idea how some astonishingly biased publications are so widely circulated and actually called "news." You have to admit, the Fleet Street crowd are a pretty crazy bunch
0roo0roo
No Lifer
- Sep 21, 2002
- 64,795
- 84
- 91
once again that is YOUR fault.
where is the moral superiority in undermining sanctions against iraq?
and in 40 years we'll be doomed? i'm sure you've read the population bomb and other scary books about the end of oil like 10 years ago...... that didn't pan out
Infohawk should also look up the root of the word "slavery". I'll save him the bother. It comes from the root Slav:
Slave catching and slave trade was one of the main occupations of the Vikings. Swedish Vikings, the Varangians or Rus, established strongholds and founded the first Russian state, Kievan Rus' during their trade and Slave catching operations. The Persian traveller Ibn Rustah recounts how they terrorized the Slavs and treated them like cattle. This trade was part of making the ethnic label Slav the name for "slave".
slavery
He should also research current trafficing in humans resolutions and the routes.
TIH
It sucks, especially since it turns all brown and sludgey. I actually have some friends up here in Boston that are from AL, too (including myself!).
nCred
Golden Member
- Oct 13, 2003
- 1,109
- 114
- 106
Originally posted by: cwjerome
I will somewhat agree with someone way up there who said my post is exagerration, but it's hyperbole with a point. And maybe I should have prefaced my thoughts because there's some misunderstanding... I do not hate Europe. I appreciate Europe and our historical ties are significant. We share more commonalities than differences and Europeans are important allies. But just as I would face and question problems I see in a friend, the same goes for Europe.
Many of those problems stem for historical traditions and customs, seized on by Elites, and pushed through by a collusive media. Whereas the US is an extremely independent nation with individualism ingrained in our national character, Europe still hasn't shaken the old principles that cling to dark corners of her psyche. The ideas that man is a sacrificial means to the ends of others and that society is an end in itself manifests in the European view of the nature of man and government. The subtle yet primitive attitude that any freedom people enjoy is theirs by favor of the state, by permission of the society, still linger. This is why the Elite agenda dominates the European landscape, and this is why they cannot understand -and even fear- an assertive United States.
The Elites have the power in Europe and see America as the next great challenge... but because of their history, Europe was ripe for Elitist domination. Such a thing could never happen in the United States. Not yet.
The Elites are ashamed of the US. We need to be more like them (Europe). We're rude and crude. We're brash and arrogant. American values are low-brow... you know, all that "frontier" stuff about patriotism, faith, apple pie, and self-reliant rugged individualism. The Elites have a nervous tic that kicks in whenever the subject of American greatness comes up. And forget what you've heard about Europeans disliking Bush, not our people. Not true- Bush is seen as a symbol of America, with all her ugly policies and all. Besides, who are the people who elected this guy: American citizens... obviously they are very, very bad!
The Euro-Elites (along with American Liberal Elites) aim to tie the America giant down. Why? Because their view of man and the world is so completely out of touch with reality that they see the US as the biggest threat. It's also because Europe is weak and scared, as well as poisonously jealous. They have been telling themselves for years that we're the stupiest bunch of people on the planet, yet somehow we're a thriving success... it drives them insane with bitterness to see such low-level cowboys with our simpleton concepts prosper- and threaten their ideals in the process.
The problem with Europe is, they're just not American enough
lol, you are so ignorant.
yes the vikings were very civilized, alot of current setup of government comes from them
the vikings were just not very civilized to certain countries, like England and about half of europe below denmark
I'm afraid I still disagree with you on this issue, although I find your argument interesting to consider. I fail to see how history of feudal socities reflects on the modern day voting habits of the majority of the electorate. I believe this point is enhanced and magnified by the fact that, these days, with apathy and political ignorance provailing in some areas of society, lots (but not necessarily the majority) of voting is done on a per candidate basis, rather than on any ideological grounds. I must admit, I'm not exactly following your "slavery to the state" point, which hints at a highly left wing society, possibly a form of socialism. With reference to the UK (obviously my main experience and largest knkowledge base), it is true that we are experiencing a degree of a welfare state at the moment. However, this is after about seventeen years of conservative governance, with right wind policies all over the place. It is only since 1997 that we voted in New Labour, which contrary to what it sounds like, is rather right wing, unlike Old Labour. We continue to be a stong capitalist power, with the two main parties settling on a slightly right wing stance. If you were to add patriotism/jingoism to the equation, then you'd also be adding the fact that the Americans are, generally speaking, extremely unconditionally patriotic (and most never travel outside America), compared to an incredibly unpatriotic UK (where most people travel abroad reguarly). There is no sense of serving your country in the UK. In fact, the electorate see the role of government as serving them, rather than them serving the government (I doubt many have even considered that concept). Therefore, at least in the UK, I don't see how we vote ourselves into being slaves to the state, especially in comparison to America, which has a strong patriotic element which is worth considering.
I definitely accept your point that Western Europe, and in fact Europe as a whole, is much less religious than America. However (again I'm using the UK as my reference), we have a large Christian community. Taking information from Microsoft Encarta 2004:
---
United States
Protestant 56 percent
Roman Catholic 27 percent
Jewish 2 percent
Nonreligious 8 percent
Other 7 percent
United Kingdom
Anglican 45 percent
Roman Catholic 10 percent
Other Protestant 9 percent
Muslim 2 percent
Sikh, Hindu, Jewish 2 percent
Nonreligious 12 percent
Other 20 percent
© 1993-2003 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
---
As far as I can see, roughly 64% of the UK people questioned in the 2002 consensus (I think it was 2002 that this was taken from) said they were Christian of some denomination or other. I just don't understand how you can say we frown on America's religiousness. I think it's safe to say we frown on America's unwavering and unconditional patriotism, but that is very separate from frowning on America's religiousness. If you could explain this point, I'd be interested to see where you're coming from. To briefly deviate, I for one am concerned about the incredible patriotism that Americans seem to demonstrate primarily because it is this, the nature of being proud of your country regardless of circumstances, which results in the failure of the electorate to hold the executive to account. This is arguably the electorate's primary task, and one which is incompatible with unqualified support.
I'm grateful to you for clearing up my slight miscomprehension of the term elite. I would however like to reiterate my complete support for multilateral organisations like the UN and treaties such as the Kyoto treaty. To deal with the organisations first; the UN democratically represents the interests and desires of a large proportion of the world and a wide selection of some of the world's most powerful countries. It provides a basis for lagre scale action to be agreed upon, organised and carefully executed. The political pressure this exerts on the various governments helps to ensure that these countries work multi-laterally, and therefore there is a much greater chance of action in the interests of the many, rather than just in the interests of the country involved (with specific reference to the Iraq war). Had the US been integrated into a group such as the UN at the time of choosing to go to war, it would have faced much more resistance, and would most probably have found itself expelled; a potentially politically devastating move. It is such groups which help ensure that single leaders, such as Bush, in almost dictatorial positions, have a restraint on them that ensures they cannot run amock when the lives of those outside of their countries, who never voted for them in the first place, are at stake. I think this concept is absolutely essential.
Without wishing to rant on much longer, I'll touch briefly on the specific Kyoto treaty. We are repulsed that the US refuses to partake in this essential project. It demonstrates that the US government is right in the hands of big businesses, and that democracy is having trouble shining through. This alone is a worrying issue, but the issue of global warming and other environmental concerns is much more so. We are already too late, in my opinion, to save our world. Nothing can slow the emission of greenhouse gases enough over the next few decades to achieve this. The very fact that countries like the US refuses to commit to even the most lenient (and pathetic) of targets such as those specified in Kyoto is a sign that the US government doesn't care one jot about the world, that the US people are generally equally apathetic (they won't be in about 40 years... then it'll be the top of their agenda as they realise their freedom is being terribly restricted by the environmental consequences of their actions years previously). It is nothing other than scary. It's forcing rational people such as myself to think that a socialist revolution may not be quite so negative at this specific point in time, even though it's the last thing I want ideologically. Americans just don't seem to realise the severity of the situation - or maybe they don't *want* to realise. Either way, something colosal needs to happen now.
Originally posted by: cwjerome
I think I'm decently knowledgable on world affairs and news... and I often wonder at the mass media in Europe, I have no idea how some astonishingly biased publications are so widely circulated and actually called "news." You have to admit, the Fleet Street crowd are a pretty crazy bunch
Which group of publications are you referring to when you use the term "The Fleet Street crowd"? I would say, though, Europeans hold a similar opinion about many American news publications, channels etc.
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
and in 40 years we'll be doomed? i'm sure you've read the population bomb and other scary books about the end of oil like 10 years ago...... that didn't pan out
Good point. However, that argument only works for so long. How long do you want to risk pushing the rotten door to the dragon's cave for before it gives in? The ice caps are melting at a truly alarming rate and we're already seeing huge changes to our climate based upon global warming - even though scientists have to be careful that they don't specifically state that's unequivocally the cause, as it's almost impossible to prove 100%. Even small climate changes have huge consequences for our environment which are already being realised. This *is* serious and it *does* require serious action now.
Excuse me bud, but I seriously doubt you have a lot of experience in Europe. None of what you said makes any sense and you DO NOT sound like a friend of Europe at all in your first 'pulled out of the National Review' diatribe.
Europeans have had a lot of experience with war they know the horrors that it brings and they know how evil the propaganda can get. I am neutral about Europe but kudos to them for showing some balls and standing in the way of the bible-thumping, ignorant, think-they-know-it-all but know nothing red staters.
Europeans have had a lot of experience with war they know the horrors that it brings and they know how evil the propaganda can get. I am neutral about Europe but kudos to them for showing some balls and standing in the way of the bible-thumping, ignorant, think-they-know-it-all but know nothing red staters.
You view it as that, but others view it as the return of European colonialism. And now what has happened regarding Kyoto? The US as well as other Western nations, developing nations, and oil nations have all banded together to reject further talks on what to do when Kyoto expires to resist EU bullying. It's the pefect example that the EU is in the hands of colonialism worshipping crazies, and that democracy is having trouble shining through.
Starbuck1975
Lifer
- Jan 6, 2005
- 14,698
- 1,909
- 126
Perhaps 50 years ago that was the case, but you are seeing an increasing number of upper class families in America that come from the families of immigrants...drive into any upper class neighborhood in America, and while you will see a lot of white people, you will also see blacks, Asians, Middle Easterners, Russians and other ethnicities...the same is not the case for the European upper class...it is more difficult to achieve class progression in Europe because in addition to racial boundaries, you also have governmental boundaries that limit people to very specific career paths based on aptitude tests and other such tools...granted, the cost of education and test scores limits many minorities from attending top tier schools here in America...but these minorities have the option to go another route through community colleges and other avenues of achieving higher education...in Europe, the government decides your educational opportunities, and there are few if any alternatives to achieve your dreams through another route.
There is a modern aristocracy in America with regards to politics because money has become a necessity in having a political voice...however, before the two party system and the media dominated our political landscape, it was quite possible for someone not of blue blood to rise to the highest offices of our nation...names like Lincoln and Grant come to mind.
And yes it is possible for a farmer's son in the US to get a phD...or in my case, an immigrant's son to get an education and opportunities that far surpass those of my parents.
I'm wondering which America you are living in Starbuck? This new neo-conservative America is interesting. I can't see it anywhere. In my own neighborhood, which is probably a $120,000+ area income I see all white people, two Indian families, and a black family of 7. In most upper class areas I go I see huge majorities of white people, followed by Indians and Japanese, who are mainly there because of their $70,000+ average incomes. There are huge gaps of wealth in this country and although you are right about the range of choices in America, what does it matter if you have 10 fairly expensive choices and no money to spend on them?
Edit: grammar
Edit: grammar
On the current state of Kyoto - it isn't working out wonderfully, however whether it is or isn't defeats the point of my statement. At least the countries involved are making a statement that they are willing to work to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. All the Americans ever say is "European colonialism" and that the EU is pushing these things on America. Well, yes, the EU is trying to push this on America. Has it dawned on you that almost every other person on this planet except the American people are clamouring for America to sign up to *something* to do with reducing CO2 emissions. And that's a major point there - the Kyoto treaty is going poorly because the support of the US, the largest greenhouse gas emittor, isn't subscribing. That refusal pretty much sentenced Kyoto to failure from the beginning. It's a testament to the will of the nations involved that it got as far as it has today without US involvement.
Why can't you step back for two seconds and see the bigger picture here from the eyes of anyone not living in America (not just those in Europe)? Recently America's waged its own personal little vendetta on a few countries of its choice, in the eyes of many (including myself) for things such as natural resources, power, and the advancement of liberal democracies (America's ONLY solution - it ignores and discredits anything else). America effectively blew up Afghanistan. It invaded Iraq and at the moment it's still a Vietnam II, quite literally. It acts as the world's policeman and puts great economic and political pressure on any country not doing exactly what the US wants (European countries included). It makes no effort to try to reduce greenhouse gas emissions whatsoever. Then a consortium of other countries come along and presents the Kyoto treaty in an attempt to get the US to subscribe for the good of the world (no hidden reasons, quite simply a huge environmental issue that everyone has managed to ignore so far from my posts and attack everything else around it). That's all that happened. Then the Americans attack the Europeans for exercising its great power over the US, waggling its finger at it, being imperialistic, "EU bullying", undemocratic... all we said is you're the largest CO2 emittor, and you're harming the whole world. We're trying to improve the situation and slowing our economies as a result, and you should too. That is not bullying - that is common sense. It enrages me to think you guys can't get over the fact that we are asking America to do something, and not the other way round. Your so called argument spews hypocrisy from every crack. If the US wanted to help the world, it would take it upon itself to lead the other countries in greenhouse gas reductions, rather than spend goodness knows how many billions on killing people for natural resources. I mean, even the Republican party's campaign funding (which is absolutely ridiculously disproportionate to any other political party in any other country), put towards reducing emissions, would probably go quite a way towards Kyoto targets.
America isn't being asked to subscribe to the EU concept, or follow the EU around on a leash (like the EU currently is being forced to with America due to *America's* imperialism). It is being asked to try to slightly improve the environment, which is a global issue affecting everyone on the planet. In my opinion, the decision over the future of the lives of the people of this world should rest with someone with a little more forethought, consideration and intellect than Bush, a man who is unable to string a single sentence together (and who's ridiculous attempts at just that I've been laughing at for the past year in my Bush page a day calendar).
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