The Problem With Europe

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: JackStorm

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
If you think racism is declining in Europe you must not be reading the news much.

I don't have to read the news to see that it's in decline in the area where I live (Or have lived in). I live there. But that doesn't mean that there aren't areas where it's getting worse. It really depends on the country. It might help if you pointed out the countries in question, rather then use the broad 'europe' label.

CanOWorms, what are these stats you are talking about for racism in Europe? Have you been there for more than six months at a time (not including military service)?

I've mentioned it several times on this forum. I'm refering to the poll carried out by the request of the Employment, Industrial Relations, and Social Affairs Directorate of the European Commission which involved 16,154 people and organized by University of Michigan and Ecole des Hautes Etudes en Sciences Sociales, Paris. 66% of the EU15 back then described themselves as racists with half of that 66% describing themselves as 'extremely racist.' Now if you consider the newly introduced Eastern European nations with such lovely problems as 95% of Slovenia voting to restrict rights to a group of minorities, the rise of the far-right, etc. I think it's obvious that the problem is getting worse. Avoiding it my saying things such as 'oh it happens everywhere else' or 'it's getting better even though far-right parties are seizing power' is contributing to the problem.

No, I haven't been there for more than six months at a time. Have you been to Iraq for longer than six months?

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
I've mentioned it several times on this forum. I'm refering to the poll carried out by the request of the Employment, Industrial Relations, and Social Affairs Directorate of the European Commission which involved 16,154 people and organized by University of Michigan and Ecole des Hautes Etudes en Sciences Sociales, Paris. 66% of the EU15 back then described themselves as racists with half of that 66% describing themselves as 'extremely racist.' Now if you consider the newly introduced Eastern European nations with such lovely problems as 95% of Slovenia voting to restrict rights to a group of minorities, the rise of the far-right, etc. I think it's obvious that the problem is getting worse. Avoiding it my saying things such as 'oh it happens everywhere else' or 'it's getting better even though far-right parties are seizing power' is contributing to the problem.

Do you have a link? Do you have a comparable study of US racism? A comparison might put it into perspective because it really depends how you define racism and extremely racist. I have a very strong hunch that you are overestimating the amount of racism in Europe in your mind.

No, I haven't been there for more than six months at a time. Have you been to Iraq for longer than six months?

I was just curious. I am aware it doesn't impact your ability to make a good argument on Europe. On the other hand I think those that have been in Europe would find a situation where your average white European is more racist than your average American to be hard to believe. But anyway, I'm more interested in the stats.

 

[Starbuck1975]

While I don't agree with many of the conclusions taken from this article as it plays on certain stereotypes, some of it is factually correct.

Anyone who has spent any extended time living in Europe knows that many Europeans are still xenophobic, discriminatory and perhaps racists...although the European brands of racism, sexism and discrimination are a slight bit different then those here in America.

The whole distribution of wealth and power is spot on...if you look at the elite class in Europe, most of it is tied to old money...very old money...some of these people still buy into the whole title, royalty, bloodline crap...others simply enjoy their wealth without assuming an air of superiority...however, you will find that the upper class of Eurpope is predominately white, has some blood ties to aristocracy and is extremely elitist...you do not hear many stories of farmers going to college and becoming business executives...especially in a society where test scores dictate profession, and freedom of choice with regards to education is severly limited.

So I dont know...I dont think the European elites are plotting collectively to strike against America's culture...however, I would caution those who think that Europe has it so much better then us...if you like the government making decisions for you, then be my guest.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
I've mentioned it several times on this forum. I'm refering to the poll carried out by the request of the Employment, Industrial Relations, and Social Affairs Directorate of the European Commission which involved 16,154 people and organized by University of Michigan and Ecole des Hautes Etudes en Sciences Sociales, Paris. 66% of the EU15 back then described themselves as racists with half of that 66% describing themselves as 'extremely racist.' Now if you consider the newly introduced Eastern European nations with such lovely problems as 95% of Slovenia voting to restrict rights to a group of minorities, the rise of the far-right, etc. I think it's obvious that the problem is getting worse. Avoiding it my saying things such as 'oh it happens everywhere else' or 'it's getting better even though far-right parties are seizing power' is contributing to the problem.

Do you have a link? Do you have a comparable study of US racism? A comparison might put it into perspective because it really depends how you define racism and extremely racist. I have a very strong hunch that you are overestimating the amount of racism in Europe in your mind.

link

I feel that people are underplaying it. It's not widely reported in American media...

No, I haven't been there for more than six months at a time. Have you been to Iraq for longer than six months?

I was just curious. I am aware it doesn't impact your ability to make a good argument on Europe. On the other hand I think those that have been in Europe would find a situation where your average white European is more racist than your average American to be hard to believe. But anyway, I'm more interested in the stats.

Well, when our most popular political party has slogans similar to "The Swiss are becoming Negroes" and have posters depicting brown people feasting on the blood of whites, or almost 100% of Americans vote to technically not even view some of their own countryment as human, maybe I'll agree with you.

 

[biostud]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

frankly your hands are far dirtier then you'd admit, and thats the problem. hell...most of the problems stem from europe to begin with. time to stfu with the whole moral superiorty act.

Yes, it's time for Europeans to drop the moral superiority act. I'm not sure how they can even have a sense of moral superiority when they raped the entire world a million times over, resulting in most of today's problems coming from Europe.

I suppose that now that these European countries have significantly dropped in importance and global reach, they feel that they are a 'moral superpower' now. The sad thing is that apparently many Europeans believe it. It's pathetic how blind many Americans and Europeans are - these people actually believe that their countries are purely benevolent countries. Even more sad is how many Europeans are completely focused on the US yet apparently spend almost no time learning about what their own country and their neighbors are doing. Forsythe is a perfect example of this. Every post I read from him reinforces my thought that he is just some 16 year old Danish kid that has no idea about anything in the world.

I simply cannot believe that many Europeans seem to believe that their general area has not supported any dictators, cruel regimes, etc. or sold weapons and weapon systems to horrible countries. Instead they spend all of their time centered around the US while completely ignoring what their own area does, which results in a hilariously ridiculous aura of moral superiority.

I agree that many problems around the world was created during the colonization from the European countries (US included j/k ). It fvcked the world up pretty good and during the Cold War I would say that pretty much all countries with an active foreign policy tried to get theit own pocket dictator. Either in their colonies or former (European Countries) or in regional important countries (US/China/USSR). The worst thing that could happen was if the other side got their dictator in to rule, so there was basically no limits on how to get hold of power in these countries. We can now see how these countries often are teared up with civil wars, huge amount of crime etc. But these deeds was done during the cold war, and while most have gotten their hands pretty dirty, there's no way we could tell if it could have been done another way and still lead to the fall of USSR. This is history, we cannot change what has happened. What we can change is how we're going to deal with the consequences of our former foreign policy. I do think Europe is doing too little to clear up their history, I hope that the "Marshall plan for Africa" or similar will help going the right direction. The main threat to the western world is not military, but the societies where terrorists can be recruited. My main concern about the current US foreign policy is, that it does not seem to have a solution to this. I see more and more hating US, and I would think this also created more subjects who would fight against "the great SATAN".

I would like ot be presented for a solution that I could believe in. Maybe I just don't read enough of about "The Great Master Plan", but it seems to me that no politician is able to do this, atleast no one that actually takes place in the real world. All the promises and evidence they gave before the war hasn't they been able to live up to. And now they keep giving these hyper optimistic promises, and I'm suposed to ignore it? If the politicians atleast would try to give a realistic view on the situation, what sacrifices was needed and maybe admit that something went wrong according to their first assumptions, but now they have learned and maybe change something according to this. But they don't. The sheer arrogance keep them from accepting mistakes (atleast in public). That's all I'm asking for. (I don't think asking for more is possible ATM)

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Well, when our most popular political party has slogans similar to "The Swiss are becoming Negroes" and have posters depicting brown people feasting on the blood of whites, or almost 100% of Americans vote to technically not even view some of their own countryment as human, maybe I'll agree with you.

You do understand that Europe has more diverse political parties right? So that on either side you are going to get extreme views. That is a proportional system. So obviously some Americans also believe the same things but they have no party to represent them properly.

I take it links to those stats are on the way?

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Well, when our most popular political party has slogans similar to "The Swiss are becoming Negroes" and have posters depicting brown people feasting on the blood of whites, or almost 100% of Americans vote to technically not even view some of their own countryment as human, maybe I'll agree with you.

You do understand that Europe has more diverse political parties right? So that on either side you are going to get extreme views. That is a proportional system. So obviously some Americans also believe the same things but they have no party to represent them properly.

I take it links to those stats are on the way?

Yes of course. Many of those parties have tremendous support and are in power right now though. I'm not saying that Americans don't have those views. I'm stating that they are magnified much more so and accepted in Europe. They're used to colonizing others, not others 'colonizing' them.

I gave you the link in the previous post.

 

[biostud]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
The whole distribution of wealth and power is spot on...if you look at the elite class in Europe, most of it is tied to old money...very old money...some of these people still buy into the whole title, royalty, bloodline crap...others simply enjoy their wealth without assuming an air of superiority...however, you will find that the upper class of Eurpope is predominately white, has some blood ties to aristocracy and is extremely elitist...you do not hear many stories of farmers going to college and becoming business executives...especially in a society where test scores dictate profession, and freedom of choice with regards to education is severly limited.

So the money in US is not tied to old and large families? And are these families not white also? How come certain families produces so many politicians? A modern aristocracy? Does many farmers son's in US get a ph.D? Does many of those living in the ghetto's or trailer parks?

So I dont know...I dont think the European elites are plotting collectively to strike against America's culture...however, I would caution those who think that Europe has it so much better then us...if you like the government making decisions for you, then be my guest.

Democracy is when you select a government to represent you and make the laws. So I will gladly vote for a poltician I believe in and make him/her make decisions on my behalf, on how our society should take form. If we didn't like the way it was going we could just vote for other politicians, and as CanOWorms always nicely points out, racists or close to parties have had a large part of the votes in many countries. That is because many think they can solve a problem, so because we have a democracy they're elected. I would like to know of a better way of how to run a country.

 

[Infohawk]

As I suspected a brief glance at the poll suggests it's more complex than Europeans being racist. 33% described themselves as a "little" racist. Seems like less than that described themselves as very racist. If someone asked me about racism I might say "little" depending on what racist means. If you see a black guy and a hood and a white guy in a hood who are you more afraid of? Most honest white people will say the black person. Does that make them racist? Maybe a little. Does that mean they are racist according to most definitions, I doubt it. So you are basically down to at most 33% being genuinely racist. And that link doesn't show their methods. Do you have any American numbers we can compare that to?

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: Infohawk
As I suspected a brief glance at the poll suggests it's more complex than Europeans being racist. 33% described themselves as a "little" racist. Seems like less than that described themselves as very racist. If someone asked me about racism I might say "little" depending on what racist means. If you see a black guy and a hood and a white guy in a hood who are you more afraid of? Most honest white people will say the black person. Does that make them racist? Maybe a little. Does that mean they are racist according to most definitions, I doubt it. So you are basically down to at most 33% being genuinely racist. And that link doesn't show their methods. Do you have any American numbers we can compare that to?

Obviously it's more complex! This is about more than just racism/xenophobia/discrimination.

I already stated previously that half of the 66% described themselves as 'very racist.' You're not exactly revealing extraordinary information here.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Obviously it's more complex! This is about more than just racism/xenophobia/discrimination.

I already stated previously that half of the 66% described themselves as 'very racist.' You're not exactly revealing extraordinary information here.

I'm contesting your repeated suggestions though that Europe on the whole is somehow a racist society (using a reasonable definition of racist). Do you think white Europeans are more racist than white Americans? I suspect you do. If I'm wrong about one of those things correct me. How racist do you think white America is?

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Obviously it's more complex! This is about more than just racism/xenophobia/discrimination.

I already stated previously that half of the 66% described themselves as 'very racist.' You're not exactly revealing extraordinary information here.

I'm contesting your repeated suggestions though that Europe on the whole is somehow a racist society (using a reasonable definition of racist). Do you think white Europeans are more racist than white Americans? I suspect you do. If I'm wrong about one of those things correct me. How racist do you think white America is?

Yes, I think the US as well as Canada are less racist than Europe. I think it's pretty obvious if you follow the news.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Yes, I think the US as well as Canada are less racist than Europe. I think it's pretty obvious if you follow the news.

Okay, where are your stats on the US side? Which news stories are you talking about specifically? Most of your posts are generally examples of the extremes in Europe. We both know that extreme examples from the US can be dragged up too. And to think-- without stats to back it up on the American side-- that America is less racist than Europe, you are ignoring history. Europe didn't have slavery as an institution. It's common knowledge that black troops in Europe during the world wars felt more free in EUrope than they did in the US. Now maybe by some miracle America has leapedfrogged ahead of Europe but frankly I don't see any reason to think it has.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Yes, I think the US as well as Canada are less racist than Europe. I think it's pretty obvious if you follow the news.

Okay, where are your stats on the US side? Which news stories are you talking about specifically? Most of your posts are generally examples of the extremes in Europe. We both know that extreme examples from the US can be dragged up too. And to think-- without stats to back it up on the American side-- that America is less racist than Europe, you are ignoring history. Europe didn't have slavery as an institution. It's common knowledge that black troops in Europe during the world wars felt more free in EUrope than they did in the US. Now maybe by some miracle America has leapedfrogged ahead of Europe but frankly I don't see any reason to think it has.

lol, Europe didn't have slavery as an institution? They started it in the Americas! I suggest you read up on history, especially 20th century slavery practiced by many of the colonial powers. What you just said is akin to denying the holocaust.

Racism isn't really quantifiable like that. It's my viewpoint. You're welcome to agree or disagree. The sad thing is, I'm not even talking about the extremes - these are mainstream things I'm talking about.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: Infohawk
Europe didn't have slavery as an institution.

This is perhaps the funniest thing that I have ever seen in my life. You and Forsythe should get together.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
lol, Europe didn't have slavery as an institution? They started it in the Americas!

And in the 19th century did they have it? Those Europeans who started it in the Americas were frequently early Americans so it's silly to try and pin them as Europeans. You can also think about the problems in the 1960s in the South of the US. Nothing like that was happening in Europe and segregation had been a thing of the past for a very long time. And I don't think it's useful to confound colonialism with racism. Colonialism is a different kind of evil.

Racism isn't really quantifiable like that. It's my viewpoint.

If it isn't then how can you compare the two?

The sad thing is, I'm not even talking about the extremes - these are mainstream things I'm talking about.

Like what else? Your story about extreme parties in Russia? Didn't you have some other bizarre story claiming Europeans had concentration camps? What would it take for you to believe that Europeans aren't as racist as you think? What would it take for you to believe that Europeans are not more racist than Americans?

 

[Genx87]

Europe is quickly becoming more economically viable than America. It's no accident that the Euro is stronger than the dollar and that they can come here and easily outspend Americans with their 35% discount.

Is that why their unemployment rate is much higher than us? Their GDP growth lags behind ours? What exactly about the EU is making it more economically viable than America?

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Infohawk
Europe didn't have slavery as an institution.

This is perhaps the funniest thing that I have ever seen in my life. You and Forsythe should get together.

Maybe because we actually know something about Europe besides bizzaro trumped-up stories?

Saying that there was no slavery in Europe is obviously a simplification. Going back farther enough there was obviously slavery. I'm comparing the USA and thus am not going to go back to pre-colonial period Europe. France abolished slavery in 1794. Northern Europe did so effectively far earlier. In America slavery persisted into the 19th century and the racist institutions and laws weren't abolished 'til the 1960s. Absolutely pathetic. With that in mind it makes it very hard to believe, even if you haven't been to Europe, that Europe is much more racist. Again, you have black troops who went to Europe to fight and found themselves to have more freedom than they did when they got home to the country they fought for. How do you rectify that with a vision of a super-racist Europe.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
lol, Europe didn't have slavery as an institution? They started it in the Americas!

And in the 19th century did they have it? Those Europeans who started it in the Americas were frequently early Americans so it's silly to try and pin them as Europeans. You can also think about the problems in the 1960s in the South of the US. Nothing like that was happening in Europe and segregation had been a thing of the past for a very long time. And I don't think it's useful to confound colonialism with racism. Colonialism is a different kind of evil.

Yikes, you have no idea of history regarding slavery and colonialism, huh? Yes, they had it in the 19th century. It was even practiced in the 20th century, and even slave-like conditions for their colonial 'animals' well into the mid-20th century. Like I said before, what you're saying is akin to denying the Holocaust.

In the 60s there were still colonies being oppressed. Of course you won't see much in the 1960s in Europe because they were basically an all-white homogeneous society! That's why we're seeing things that happened decades ago in North America happen today in Europe.

Racism isn't really quantifiable like that. It's my viewpoint.

If it isn't then how can you compare the two?

You can compare them if you want. You just can't 'tally' up racism points and quantify it. You can't quantify happiness, yet you can compare the happiness in your life at different times.

The sad thing is, I'm not even talking about the extremes - these are mainstream things I'm talking about.

Like what else? Your story about extreme parties in Russia? Didn't you have some other bizarre story claiming Europeans had concentration camps? What would it take for you to believe that Europeans aren't as racist as you think? What would it take for you to believe that Europeans are not more racist than Americans?

These parties aren't in the extreme anymore, and their ideas are in the mainstream now. I suggest you look up some of my old threads for some news articles. These are not all fringe parties.

When I think of Europe, I don't really think of Russia. I post these types of articles regardless of where they are - Europe, US, anyone.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Infohawk
Europe didn't have slavery as an institution.

This is perhaps the funniest thing that I have ever seen in my life. You and Forsythe should get together.

Maybe because we actually know something about Europe besides bizzaro trumped-up stories?

Saying that there was no slavery in Europe is obviously a simplification. Going back farther enough there was obviously slavery. I'm comparing the USA and thus am not going to go back to pre-colonial period Europe. France abolished slavery in 1794. Northern Europe did so effectively far earlier. In America slavery persisted into the 19th century and the racist institutions and laws weren't abolished 'til the 1960s. Absolutely pathetic. With that in mind it makes it very hard to believe, even if you haven't been to Europe, that Europe is much more racist. Again, you have black troops who went to Europe to fight and found themselves to have more freedom than they did when they got home to the country they fought for. How do you rectify that with a vision of a super-racist Europe.

Completely false. France practiced slavery in the 1800s too, it was just banned for about 8 years from 1794-1802 or so. They also "banned" slavery - what you think of as slavery. But in reality, their colonies were still slave pits.

As for Northern Europe banning slavery far earlier, even Sweden was active in the slave trade in the 1800s.

I suggest you read some books on colonialism and slavery.

Fun fact regarding France: they forced Haiti to pay reparations for the loss of slave plantations when Haiti declared its independence.. which they paid until the 1950s!

 

[Infohawk]

Thanks for the suggestions about reading up about slavery. I suggest you go live in Europe for a while and compare first hand. Even, for the sake of argument, I accepted the limited European slavery you mention is equal to the slavery in the southern united states, that doesn't convince me Europe is MORE racist. All you have in the more racist category is again the bizarro stories (and I could go on about the dragging cases in teh south and the cross-burnings but why?). And frankly just like the Russian example I don't think it's terribly indicative. Yes, many Russians are anti-semites. And in a proportional system you are going to get parties that represent their interests. But you can't extrapolate based on that. Same thing with France's experience with their far right party. Sure it represents that minority that is genuinely racist, but again you can't extrapolate on that. I've seen your other stories and your repeated suggestions (which I rightly picked up on) that they make other places more racist than the US are bogus for the reasons mentioned above. I saw them and brushed them aside but I thought I'd see what was behind it.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: Infohawk
Thanks for the suggestions about reading up about slavery.

You're welcome on the historical education. Seriously though, read up on it and you'll be completely shocked on what was happening.

I suggest you go live in Europe for a while and compare first hand.

I've been there and experienced it first hand. It was probably the single most insulting and degrading experience of my life. However, my own experience doesn't really factor into it that much (it did cause me to look into the matter though).

Even, for the sake of argument, I accepted the limited European slavery you mention is equal to the slavery in the southern united states, that doesn't convince me Europe is MORE racist.

I never brought up slavery, you did. That was your argument. I don't even understand bringing up slavery when trying to compare which one is more racist. It may help in analyzing the situation though.

Who said that I was trying to convince people that Europe was more racist? I'm just trying to inform people of legitimate news stories. If I convince someone like I did with you regarding Europe slave history, great! But that's not my point.

All you have in the more racist category is again the bizarro stories (and I could go on about the dragging cases in teh south and the cross-burnings but why?). And frankly just like the Russian example I don't think it's terribly indicative. Yes, many Russians are anti-semites. And in a proportional system you are going to get parties that represent their interests. But you can't extrapolate based on that. Same thing with France's experience with their far right party. Sure it represents that minority that is genuinely racist, but again you can't extrapolate on that. I've seen your other stories and your repeated suggestions (which I rightly picked up on) that they make other places more racist than the US are bogus for the reasons mentioned above. I saw them and brushed them aside but I thought I'd see what was behind it.

Actually, I don't post the bizarro stories. I post government actions or mass society actions, etc. I rarely post anything about an individual, and if I do, it's just that: an individual thing of a whacko. I suggest you actually read the threads.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Actually, I don't post the bizarro stories. I post government actions or mass society actions, etc. I rarely post anything about an individual, and if I do, it's just that: an individual thing of a whacko. I suggest you actually read the threads.

Whatever. We could go on all day like this. I'll leave it with the following: You don't have any actual comparative statistics so your claim is unsubstantiated. The only thing close to showing Europe is MORE racist are anecdotal stories that are a) not too useful to begin with and b) even less useful when you ignore the American flip-side (and I haven't seen too many American racist stories by you). It's especially hard for me to take you seriously when you have no substantial personal experience of European life (edit: I see you're now saying you do have experience with it so I'll add that a substantial stay is necessary to get insight into most places. That's why I said six months in the beginning. I've noticed people who've stayed longer tend to have more balanced views).

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Actually, I don't post the bizarro stories. I post government actions or mass society actions, etc. I rarely post anything about an individual, and if I do, it's just that: an individual thing of a whacko. I suggest you actually read the threads.

Whatever. We could go on all day like this. I'll leave it with the following: You don't have any actual comparative statistics so your claim is unsubstantiated. The only thing close to showing Europe is MORE racist are anecdotal stories that are a) not too useful to begin with and b) even less useful when you ignore the American flip-side (and I haven't seen too many American racist stories by you). It's especially hard for me to take you seriously when you have no real personal experience of European life.

Did you only read 10% of my post?

I don't post anecdotal stories (you're the one asking for anecdotal evidence), bizarro stories, etc. I posted government actions and widespread social beliefs. I suggest you do a search for my threads if you want some regarding the US -- but why must someone talk about the US?

You seem to have the state of mind where Europe cannot be flawed in any way. Thankfully, I don't! I've stated my opinion and backed it up.. I'm not here to convince you of anything.

I hope you won't talk about Iraq or Iraqis... hope you take your own advice! Let's see if you do!

 

[Infohawk]

Also wanted to make it clear I'm not saying there is no racism in Europe. I've heard minorities (with first-hand experience) explain that they have been the subject of racism. That said I think it's a different kind of racism and I don't see any evidence that Europe is MORE racist. In some areas, it's less racist.