The Problem With Europe

[aceadrian1]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
and seriously, until europe stops building ever more suv's and gas guzzling luxury vehicles for the us market, they should stfu about emissions.

You said it yourself - building for the US market. For US citizens. If the US takes advantage of cheap labour elsewhere due to globalisation, and builds SUVs in other countries aside from the US, for almost only the US market (no demand for gas guzzlers in Europe - we recognise the effect they have on the environment and believe that this outweighs any personal gains they would bring - we are willing to make *sacrifices*) you can hardly blame the countries the US outsources labour work to. That is a ridiculous point IMHO. If the governments of these European countries barred these (US) companies from manufacturing SUVs in Europe, you'd say Europe was attacking the US economy and waggling its big powerful finger at the US. If we don't, like it is now, you say we don't care about emissions. Your point is ridiculous in the extreme. The US citizens should be willing to make sacrifices like European citizens.

In the UK there has recently been a slight rise in demand for 4x4s, and already campaigners have been staging protests in London, complaining that they are harming the envorionment and are unsafe for pedestrians.

 

[0roo0roo]

well actually they are made for all markets too i was just giving an example of what would be right considernig their position. and frankly the us building suvs in other places, giving jobs to others is irrelevant. what matters is the ethical consitency of the european nations. if you consider them the standard, then they should not be selling suvs and sports/lux cars to anyone. europeans are just fine being the drug dealers, while being morally outraged by the drug user. that is about inconsistent as it gets. you dodging the issue entirely is what is ridiculous in the extreme

 

[0roo0roo]

In the UK there has recently been a slight rise in demand for 4x4s, and already campaigners have been staging protests in London, complaining that they are harming the envorionment and are unsafe for pedestrians.

another myth. pedesterians tend to be knocked clear by the flat noses of suvs. while with cars they are tossed in the air rotating head first into the windshield or whatever. and well, many sports coupes/sedans have pretty lousy gas usage too, be consistent.

 

[aceadrian1]

The fact that you are saying I'm dodging the issue shows you haven't actually read what I wrote, or at least didn't take the time to digest it/give any thought to it.

To save you the effort of having to think, I'll make it clear (and if you don't agree with this, maybe you'd like to go back and read my previous post again): almost the entire post was about saying that it's the US who are making the SUVs - the US companies. They are outsourcing to other countries, which all large global businesses do. The EU cannot just ban US businesses from making things in EU countries - that goes against our liberties and freedoms, and should that happen, I along with many others would protest against it. It's still the US companies making the SUVs for the US, but in different countries (as there's a cheaper workforce most probably - Americans want value for money). I don't know what you think the EU could possibly do about it that I haven't already covered.

It's simple supply and demand after all - the market will always find a way to supply anyway. If the EU was impossible, they'd just go elsewhere. The only thing that can be tackled is the demand. Higher taxes on SUVs in America, culture change, education about environmental effects - all these are real possibilities ensuring the Americans are still free to buy SUVs if they wish, but they're educated or pressurized and therefore, hopefully, less likely to demand them in mass.

Instead of blaming the Americans, you blame everyone but - even things which are totally illogical (say if Europe could refuse to produce SUVs, which it can't, America would take advantage of the cheap workforce in China or whatever). Blame the EU. Blame Europeans. Blame me. What about you?! In this liberal society of lawyers and advertisements making you feel like a king with all the rights in the world, nobody takes any blame any more. We can blame someone else. That'll be fine. Well, it won't help, it won't solve anything, and it'll annoy those you're blaming instead of yourself. It is also severely damaging the environment.

 

[aceadrian1]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
another myth. pedesterians tend to be knocked clear by the flat noses of suvs. while with cars they are tossed in the air rotating head first into the windshield or whatever. and well, many sports coupes/sedans have pretty lousy gas usage too, be consistent.

In England, we have much smaller cars than in America. Gas (petrol) usage in these is much less than in SUVs. Pedestrian safety is AWFUL on SUVs and 4x4s - they almost always die. More and more cars being made and sold in the UK these days have soft bonnets to cushion impacts with pedestrians, and it is scientifically proven that cars are much saver than SUVs. There has never even been any debate about that because it's a fact.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
The Europeans can't speak softly and carry a big stick, so they scream constantly with a twig in
hand... and I'm supposed to change for them. I'd rather be hated but right.

Yeah, Limbaugh says the same thing. And he's an arrogant blowhard who thinks he's right all the time.

 

[aceadrian1]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
BTW, there are statements from Bush and other officials that the US will try to independently reduce its emissions.

True, however I seriously doubt that they will actually make any effort whatsoever. Were they willing to do so, they would have signed up to kyoto for the 7% reduction target. After all, signing up to Kyoto doesn't harm them in any way if they are prepared to reduce emissions anyway. In fact, it would stifle some of the criticism against the Americans from abroad, which certainly wouldn't go amiss. It'll be interesting to see more recently figures when we can find them, which I suspect will prove that the US has hardly adhered to its words.

Kyoto covers 6 main greenhouse gases I believe, including CO2 and methane. I don't know about adjusting for population fluctuations, however it was structured in such a way as to enable countries to comply - for example Iceland is allowed to increase emissions by 10%, because (I'm guessing) it has a new, growing oil industry that needs slowing rather than stopping. Some countries have to get their emissions under control, whilst others need to reduce emissions, e.g. the UK by 8%, and when the US was involved, its target was 7%. Of course, by now those targets will realistically be *much* higher, as there's been huge growth in emissions since Kyoto was agreed, and I believe it counts for a 5 year period between 2008 and 2012 or something like that.

 

[0roo0roo]

To save you the effort of having to think, I'll make it clear (and if you don't agree with this, maybe you'd like to go back and read my previous post again): almost the entire post was about saying that it's the US who are making the SUVs - the US companies. They are outsourcing to other countries, which all large global businesses do. The EU cannot just ban US businesses from making things in EU countries - that goes against our liberties and freedoms, and should that happen, I along with many others would protest against it. It's still the US companies making the SUVs for the US, but in different countries (as there's a cheaper workforce most probably - Americans want value for money). I don't know what you think the EU could possibly do about it that I haven't already covered.

i'm sorry thats just a complete dodge of the issue. i said nothing of us companies building suvs in europe. i was talking abuot european companies. companys like volvo bmw, vw, merc all make suvs and gas guzzling cars for sale in america. and no, these are not "american" companies forcing poor poor europeans to make bunny killing monster vehicles.

It's simple supply and demand after all - the market will always find a way to supply anyway. If the EU was impossible, they'd just go elsewhere. The only thing that can be tackled is the demand. Higher taxes on SUVs in America, culture change, education about environmental effects - all these are real possibilities ensuring the Americans are still free to buy SUVs if they wish, but they're educated or pressurized and therefore, hopefully, less likely to demand them in mass.

oh u are so full of sh*t its amazing. being ethically consistent means nothing to you. if theres a demand you have no choice? good god.. if your son wants crack cocaine.. i guess you should make some for him..or buy some. he'll get some if he wants it anyways eh? u might as well do it yourself if you are opposed to somethig for moral or ethical reasons, you should not contribute in any way. economics is NOT an excuse. the fact that you think so really says something about your lack of critical thought.. or simple ethics.

Instead of blaming the Americans, you blame everyone but - even things which are totally illogical (say if Europe could refuse to produce SUVs, which it can't, America would take advantage of the cheap workforce in China or whatever). Blame the EU. Blame Europeans. Blame me. What about you?! In this liberal society of lawyers and advertisements making you feel like a king with all the rights in the world, nobody takes any blame any more. We can blame someone else. That'll be fine. Well, it won't help, it won't solve anything, and it'll annoy those you're blaming instead of yourself. It is also severely damaging the environment.

its perfectly ok to look at if the person on the high horse actually applies his principals and their required actions to himself. your copping out of responsibility for supplying the things you so hate is just pathetic. no choice? lol... of course theres a choice. but you are greedy and unwilling to sacrifice the gobs of american money that come from high performance cars and suvs. you are hipocrites.

and as for pedestrians, it can't be that much of a fact if even one of your own tv shows fifth gear simply demonstrated that suv's are not more dangerous than cars.

 

[Terumo]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
There's a problem in Old Europe. The Euro-Elites are facing a great obstacle they so wish to
subdue.

In Berlin each year they replay JFK's great Berlin Wall speech that draws thousands. The old and young listen to the once solidarity both countries shared. Each hoping for a better future, and understanding the risks of falling under communist rule.

That we've gone so backwards is sad. Not only is our current Administration limiting the rights of Americans, he also casts a cloud on the hope of Europe -- because if the USA can attack any country it pleases, how would another country feel by that possibility? It's like the mid 1930s all over again, when everyone knew war was on the horizon, but no one knew just when.

At one time our country had a vision. We set our sights on a feat never accomplished in the history of man. And we made it happen in *8* years when Neil Armstrong placed his feet on the moon. Three years into the post 9/11 horror and we're nowhere near in understanding the post-Soviet fall problems and the vacuum it created. We're fighting a war that will go nowhere and there's no national dream here, or in Europe to grasp.

Instead of blaming the world's problems on Europeans, Americans need to reflect on our past policies and not let the post-Soviet collapse pull us to the depths of depravity, famine and war. Not only for us, for the world that so much depends on us to succeed.

 

[aceadrian1]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
oh u are so full of sh*t its amazing. being ethically consistent means nothing to you. if theres a demand you have no choice? good god.. if your son wants crack cocaine.. i guess you should make some for him..or buy some. he'll get some if he wants it anyways eh? u might as well do it yourself if you are opposed to somethig for moral or ethical reasons, you should not contribute in any way. economics is NOT an excuse. the fact that you think so really says something about your lack of critical thought.. or simple ethics.

You're still not listening to me, which is why you used a profanity in your post. Whether you like it or not, we live in capitalist societies and have to work within the constraints of economics. Thinking otherwise is simply naive and silly. Supply and demand - US citizens demand SUVs. Supply is from America, Europe, China, wherever... totally worldwide. If Europe bans the manufacture of SUVs (which is impossible) Americans will then get their supply of SUVs from America, China and elsewhere. This is not complicated. I'm saying if Europe does what you're proposing (which is impossible anyway so this speculation of yours is pointless), then America imports from elsewhere. No big deal. No supply interuption. Demand remains. Consumption of SUVs remains the same. The only way to lower the number of SUVs in the US will be to reduce demand, by methods I have detailed in previous posts. This is not rocket science.

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
no choice? lol... of course theres a choice.

Suggest one instead of consistently saying there is. Europe cannot ban the manufacture of SUVs - get over it. Want to know why? I've already told you in previous posts.

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
and as for pedestrians, it can't be that much of a fact if even one of your own tv shows fifth gear simply demonstrated that suv's are not more dangerous than cars.

Yeah, lots of us like to watch top gear. However, it's a totally biased program so a pathetic source to choose. Scientific tests prove otherwise - and personally I trust MANY UNBIASED scientific tests more than Jeremy Clarkson trying to entertain the public. In fact, scientists say that 2000 people may still be alive were they hit by a "HEAVY car" rather than an SUV. SUVs don't just pose a danger to pedestrians, but other drivers too. The high bumper things on the front generally render ther cars crash protection features useless. They also are highly likely to roll over, making them deadly for anyone in their way. But I suppose you probably won't believe scientific research. I suppose if it was mentioned that SUVs were safe on an American sitcom or Top Gear (oh, they did...) you'd think they were safe (oh, you do).

 

[irwincur]

The Europeans have always hated Republican presidents. People act like this is a permanent issue. The fact is, they will eventually get over it. Just like they got over their hatred for Reagan.

It is all about who defies Europe, and who bends over for them. I think we know which party is which, and why the Europeans like them.

 

[aceadrian1]

Originally posted by: irwincur
It is all about who defies Europe, and who bends over for them. I think we know which party is which, and why the Europeans like them.

I am absolutely astounded by the bizarre debate that has occured in this thread. I told my peers about it and they laughed loudly. My teachers laughed too. I'm somewhere in-between being irate and in hysterics. This is nothing about bending over for Europe. This is utter lunacy. It's about bending over for America - whatever the US wants to do, it does. Stuff what any other country thinks. I can't be bothered to elaborate. I've done that already.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: aceadrian1

Originally posted by: irwincur
It is all about who defies Europe, and who bends over for them. I think we know which party is which, and why the Europeans like them.

I am absolutely astounded by the bizarre debate that has occured in this thread. I told my peers about it and they laughed loudly. My teachers laughed too. I'm somewhere in-between being irate and in hysterics. This is nothing about bending over for Europe. This is utter lunacy. It's about bending over for America - whatever the US wants to do, it does. Stuff what any other country thinks. I can't be bothered to elaborate. I've done that already.

No, it is about bending over Europe and their colonialism tendencies - Kyoto, ICC, etc. The US and other progressive nations don't participate in them and that's fine. However, Europe is irate and demands others follow them. This is utter lunacy.

 

[aceadrian1]

Who demanded everyone follow them into Iraq? What about Afghanistan? Who pumped vast swathes of money into Europe during the Cold War to "pursuade" Europe to remain capitalist? Who is now threatening Iran? These are aggressive actions (- the Truman Doctrine/original Marshall Aid to some extent) with really serious consequences.

Europe proposes a policy which may be flawed (but isn't everything - EVERYTHING is flawed, all of the above were certainly highly flawed, but I don't hear you complaining about them) but is put forward for the indisputable good of the world, which you ignorantly deny. I that what "Fox" said? But even running with your description which is entirely incorrect, Kyoto/ICC etc are policies which would *never, ever* have a noticeable impact on the American economy. And we're talking about one country's economy (actually, it's a group effort, so all economies would suffer, reducing all power, so your whole argument is yet *again* wrong), not the lives of millions as America's policies have impacted.

I don't see how you can call yourselves moral, and call me immoral, but sit there and argue over things you've dreamed up which could, at most, blip your economy slightly (do the sums and you'll see it is only a blip really) yet passively sit and watch as America imposes war after war on the UN, Europe, the UK, Afghanistan, Iraq, (the middle east as a whole TBH), and next: Iran (probably). You call us colonial... by golly... what does that make America?

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: aceadrian1
Who demanded everyone follow them into Iraq? What about Afghanistan? Who pumped vast swathes of money into Europe during the Cold War to "pursuade" Europe to remain capitalist? Who is now threatening Iran? These are aggressive actions (- the Truman Doctrine/original Marshall Aid to some extent) with really serious consequences.

Who raped the world with colonialism? Who caused most of the world troublespots? Who is bullying other nations into Kyoto and ICC? Who forced the US to pump money into Europe during the Cold War so they wouldn't turn communist? Who organized the Rwanda genocide? etc. Those are aggressive actions.

Europe proposes a policy which may be flawed (but isn't everything - EVERYTHING is flawed, all of the above were certainly highly flawed, but I don't hear you complaining about them) but is put forward for the indisputable good of the world, which you ignorantly deny. I that what "Fox" said? But even running with your description which is entirely incorrect, Kyoto/ICC etc are policies which would *never, ever* have a noticeable impact on the American economy. And we're talking about one country's economy (actually, it's a group effort, so all economies would suffer, reducing all power, so your whole argument is yet *again* wrong), not the lives of millions as America's policies have impacted.

Europe proposes a policy which is in line with their desire to return to colonialism. Too bad many experts disagree with you regarding Kyoto. And honestly, I don't care too much about the economy argument (and I don't even know WHY you're talking about ICC and economy.. do you even know what that is?). I'm worried about the colonialism aspects of those policies.

I don't see how you can call yourselves moral, and call me immoral, but sit there and argue over things you've dreamed up which could, at most, blip your economy slightly (do the sums and you'll see it is only a blip really) yet passively sit and watch as America imposes war after war on the UN, Europe, the UK, Afghanistan, Iraq, (the middle east as a whole TBH), and next: Iran (probably). You call us colonial... by golly... what does that make America?

Where did I call myself moral and you immoral? Nope, didn't say that. I don't know how you can call yourself moral, and call me immoral, but sit there and argue over things you've dreamed up which could devastate the entire world again through Europe's horrible policies. Yet you sit passively and watch Europe instigate genocides, colonialism, and start war after war on all non-Europeans just because you think they are inherently inferior. It's sad to see history repeat itself.

 

[0roo0roo]

You're still not listening to me, which is why you used a profanity in your post. Whether you like it or not, we live in capitalist societies and have to work within the constraints of economics. Thinking otherwise is simply naive and silly. Supply and demand - US citizens demand SUVs. Supply is from America, Europe, China, wherever... totally worldwide. If Europe bans the manufacture of SUVs (which is impossible) Americans will then get their supply of SUVs from America, China and elsewhere. This is not complicated. I'm saying if Europe does what you're proposing (which is impossible anyway so this speculation of yours is pointless), then America imports from elsewhere. No big deal. No supply interuption. Demand remains. Consumption of SUVs remains the same. The only way to lower the number of SUVs in the US will be to reduce demand, by methods I have detailed in previous posts. This is not rocket science.

lol you are so pathetic it would be laughable, if it were not so sad. your arguement is economics trump enviroment and ethics/morals. its very simple. iran wants nuclear weapons. many shady sources out there for weapons. so even though selling wmd to evil iran is a horrible thing to do, we might as well. economics demands it! or how about another example. lets say genocide is bad. you are against genocide. but the perpetrators of genocide need to buy weapons! there are many suppliers out there, so why the hell would you want to miss out on some of that money eh? they are gonna get it anyways? so heck, sell em the weapons, and then express your outrage. its still good. lol u are truely sad...really.

Suggest one instead of consistently saying there is. Europe cannot ban the manufacture of SUVs - get over it. Want to know why? I've already told you in previous posts.

yes they can. is there a commandment from god saying" thou shalt not ban thy creation of suvs and sports vehicles!"? if there is.. i sorta didn't know about it... u can correct me if u think its out there though. if the eu can ban excessive pollution from its industrys, it can ban the creation and sale of vehicles that contribute to said pollution too. nothing to stop you except greed and hipocrisy.

 

[aceadrian1]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
lol you are so pathetic it would be laughable, if it were not so sad. your arguement is economics trump enviroment and ethics/morals. its very simple. iran wants nuclear weapons. many shady sources out there for weapons. so even though selling wmd to evil iran is a horrible thing to do, we might as well. economics demands it! or how about another example. lets say genocide is bad. you are against genocide. but the perpetrators of genocide need to buy weapons! there are many suppliers out there, so why the hell would you want to miss out on some of that money eh? they are gonna get it anyways? so heck, sell em the weapons, and then express your outrage. its still good. lol u are truely sad...really.

If you bothered to read my post, you'd see I said it's impossible to cut the supply, as you've proved yourself, therefore you need to cut demand. All in previous posts you haven't bothered to read as you're so closed minded.

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
yes they can. is there a commandment from god saying" thou shalt not ban thy creation of suvs and sports vehicles!"? if there is.. i sorta didn't know about it... u can correct me if u think its out there though. if the eu can ban excessive pollution from its industrys, it can ban the creation and sale of vehicles that contribute to said pollution too. nothing to stop you except greed and hipocrisy.

Answers in previous posts you haven't bothered to read as you're so closed minded.

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Who raped the world with colonialism? Who caused most of the world troublespots? Who is bullying other nations into Kyoto and ICC? Who forced the US to pump money into Europe during the Cold War so they wouldn't turn communist? Who organized the Rwanda genocide? etc. Those are aggressive actions.

Is this what they teach you in school? If so, I'm extremely concerned. Try doing some research into these events yourself.

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Too bad many experts disagree with you regarding Kyoto.

It evidently depends on whether these experts are American or otherwise.

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
And honestly, I don't care too much about the economy argument

That was the cornerstone of your argument - without that, you're left with very little to go on as far as I can see. You think Kyoto would have enabled Europe to regain its old colonies again?

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
(and I don't even know WHY you're talking about ICC and economy.. do you even know what that is?).

Yeah sorry that slipped in by mistake.

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
sit there and argue over things you've dreamed up

Now you're just using my text for effect. The only things I've talked about are the Iraq war, a probable war in Iran next, the war in Afghanistan, Vietnam, the Marshall Plan and the Truman Doctine. I dreamed these up did I?!?!

And you tell me how the heck europe is instigating wars on non-europeans?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?! This is utter lunacy!!!!!!!!!! You sit there having gone to war with Afghanistan and Iraq recently, to name but two, which were opposed by the EU (and they couldn't stop you ***because you're MUCH more powerful***) and then accuse Europe of going to war with non-Europeans?!!!!! The worst Europe's done is sent UN peacekeeping forces to countries in need!!! OOH, those dangerous Europeans with no power whatsoever are out to get the country which has recently blown up half the world!

Side remark:

I really do not mean this in a derogatory way to Americans, so please don't take offence, but I am really very concerned with the views expressed in this post, and would like to hear how you developed your views that Europe, this evil empire, is out to colonise once more. You are the only country to hold these views, therefore it seems obvious that you have been indoctinated my the media, the political parties or something else. How did you come up with this theory?

 

[0roo0roo]

If you bothered to read my post, you'd see I said it's impossible to cut the supply, as you've proved yourself, therefore you need to cut demand. All in previous posts you haven't bothered to read as you're so closed minded.

and as i said, that is not an excuse if one is to act ethically and constent with ones beliefs. you essentially condone a position of total hipocrisy and call me close minded for not accepting it? lol ..hillarious. apparently you've failed critical thinking 101 or something. i'm starting to think that you are just a troll.

 

[aceadrian1]

Ditto

 

[0roo0roo]

i guess you must agree that you are a hypocrite then. i'm not yapping about passing kyoto, so i'm not being inconsistent, you are just a greedy pathetic eurowanker without the balls to follow through with the actions required by your beliefs. i guess even you realize that repeating your assertion that europe has absolutely no choice in what polluting trash it sells to others just makes you look really stupid.

 

[imported_yetti]

Originally posted by: ForThePeople

Originally posted by: cwjerome
Long rant...

My first question to you is whether you have ever lived in Europe? Or speak any other languages (ie German, French, etc).

My second is more a statement of facts.

Europe is quickly becoming more economically viable than America. It's no accident that the Euro is stronger than the dollar and that they can come here and easily outspend Americans with their 35% discount.

You do realize that we are a country of importers, like Europe, and that we both import all of our stuff from China?

And that the quality of life is markedly better in some European countries than in a lot of single industry town red America?

I think this is just a pre-packaged anti-European rant from some Bible Belter who has never left his own country.

I lived there and I can you that your rant is ridiculous and that the power of the European economy is just beginning to eclipse ours.

It's no accident that the major cell phone company is Swedish (Nokia), that the best machinery and mechanical know-how is German and Swiss, and that all of our American drugs are manufactured in Swiss labs.

Europe is a continent of literate, science loving people. I doubt most Americans could pass the exams required for even a high school degree in Europe.

We're just a bunch of gun and Jesus loving fat people addicted to imported electronics and foreign oil. Or at least you red staters are.

i absolutely agree with what you said, but nokia is not swedish. it's finnish, named after the town nokia, finland.

 

[0roo0roo]

Europe is a continent of literate, science loving people. I doubt most Americans could pass the exams required for even a high school degree in Europe.

perhaps, but our science and r&d funding dwarfs european countries..even combined just look at investments in nanotech... its japan and the us at the top... europe combined doesn't touch either.

Europe is quickly becoming more economically viable than America. It's no accident that the Euro is stronger than the dollar and that they can come here and easily outspend Americans with their 35% discount.

questionable. look at the demographics and impending disaster. the european way of life of working less hours with early retirement is under serious threat and is unsustainable. and as china advances and starts grabbing high skill sectors of business, its just going to get worse.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: aceadrian1

Is this what they teach you in school? If so, I'm extremely concerned. Try doing some research into these events yourself.

Great, another colonialism denier. You must deny the Holocaust too, huh?

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Too bad many experts disagree with you regarding Kyoto.

It evidently depends on whether these experts are American or otherwise.

Why? There are many experts all around the world. Just because someone isn't European doesn't mean that they are inferior.

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
And honestly, I don't care too much about the economy argument

That was the cornerstone of your argument - without that, you're left with very little to go on as far as I can see. You think Kyoto would have enabled Europe to regain its old colonies again?

The economy aspect was never the cornerstone of my argument. My cornerstone is that Kyoto is actually a colonialism scheme and won't actually do anything or work. In fact, some experts think that Kyoto will actually worsen the situation. A real environmentalist would oppose Kyoto.

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
sit there and argue over things you've dreamed up

Now you're just using my text for effect. The only things I've talked about are the Iraq war, a probable war in Iran next, the war in Afghanistan, Vietnam, the Marshall Plan and the Truman Doctine. I dreamed these up did I?!?!

And you tell me how the heck europe is instigating wars on non-europeans?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?! This is utter lunacy!!!!!!!!!! You sit there having gone to war with Afghanistan and Iraq recently, to name but two, which were opposed by the EU (and they couldn't stop you ***because you're MUCH more powerful***) and then accuse Europe of going to war with non-Europeans?!!!!! The worst Europe's done is sent UN peacekeeping forces to countries in need!!! OOH, those dangerous Europeans with no power whatsoever are out to get the country which has recently blown up half the world!

Of course Europe has instigated wars on non-Europeans. They do it all the time. Many European countries are in Iraq, and Afghanistan had almost total support. Europe's UN Peacekeepers that they send out torture innocent people. You should read up on it. You should also read up on Europe's meddling in Rwanda during the Genocide. Most of the problems in the world are due to European colonialism.

I really do not mean this in a derogatory way to Americans, so please don't take offence, but I am really very concerned with the views expressed in this post, and would like to hear how you developed your views that Europe, this evil empire, is out to colonise once more. You are the only country to hold these views, therefore it seems obvious that you have been indoctinated my the media, the political parties or something else. How did you come up with this theory?

Sorry, American is not the only country to hold these views. Many people outside of Europe holds these views. Can't blame them either. European countries were some of the most savage and barbaric nations when they practiced colonialism. We're talking about countries that practiced slavery into the 20th century here. It seems obvious that you have been indoctrinated by the media, the political parties or something else. How did you come up with this theory?

 

[biostud]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Who raped the world with colonialism? Who caused most of the world troublespots? Who is bullying other nations into Kyoto and ICC? Who forced the US to pump money into Europe during the Cold War so they wouldn't turn communist? Who organized the Rwanda genocide? etc. Those are aggressive actions.

Europe did rape the world with colonialism and slavery, US is a product of this along with all the other countries where there where colonies, some places you have a functional country and some places they're royaly fvcked. We don't deny our past, but what we have to discuss is how we would like our future. We can't change what has been done, but we can change what we will do about it. That's why some countries are using diplomacy/non-violent methods (or bullying as you call it) to achieve what they believe is a better world. You can ofcourse agree or disagree with the politics, be we have just as much right to do what we believe is best as any other country, as long as it doesn't involve war.

Nobody forced US to pump money into Europe during the cold war, as it was just as much in US interest to do so. US had a large producion capacity after WW2 and needed a market for the goods produced, so making Europe rich would help this. It also helped against the global communism, and keeping europe rich would lessen the chance of a new WW starting here. And as history has shown, it worked. It was a win-win situation for US and Europe.

AFAIK the Rwanda genocide wasn't started by europeans, but could possibly have been prevented if they had acted fast enough. And that's definately a very sore spot on european "pacifism" and I will hope that EU will do what they can so this will be prevented in the future.

Europe proposes a policy which is in line with their desire to return to colonialism. Too bad many experts disagree with you regarding Kyoto. And honestly, I don't care too much about the economy argument (and I don't even know WHY you're talking about ICC and economy.. do you even know what that is?). I'm worried about the colonialism aspects of those policies.

Europe does not have any desire whatsoever to return to colonialism. That's something you've made up.
Kyoto is a treaty to reduce CO2 production and ICC is a international judge, where people who have committed crimes against humanity can be sentenced. How is this colonialism? If you think they're bad ideas that's your opinion, but I don't understand why you call it colonialism.