Atomic Playboy
Lifer
- Feb 6, 2007
- 16,432
- 1
- 81
LMAO, you have to call me a hater because I don't support your choice of canidate!?!?!??
You just made my point, thank you.
Unfortunately I agree...she would handily beat McCain or Huckabee.
And for the person talking about her "universal" health care....the trick is if they deem "you can afford it" then you have to pay for it yourself, ala Massachusetts or in the form of higher taxes, only the "poor" get free care....I know many here in MA that make 30-40K/year that are getting killed by having to pay $200+ a month on mandatory insurance, and that is with the new lower rates.
lozina
Lifer
- Sep 10, 2001
- 11,711
- 8
- 81
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
LMAO, you have to call me a hater because I don't support your choice of canidate!?!?!??
You just made my point, thank you.:lips:
No, I called you that to annoy you in retaliation for your annoying pointless reply to me.
And it worked so thank you.
jonks
Lifer
- Feb 7, 2005
- 13,918
- 20
- 81
Not entirely accurate, but the gist is that Rudy wasn't focusing much there.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080109/ap_po/giuliani
"Though he all but ignored Iowa, Giuliani invested a fair amount in New Hampshire, with a cluster of visits in the fall and $2.5 million in advertising. At the same time, his underlying strategy has been to focus on later voting states, particularly delegate-rich states like California and Florida."
Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
LMAO, you have to call me a hater because I don't support your choice of canidate!?!?!??
You just made my point, thank you.:lips:
No, I called you that to annoy you in retaliation for your annoying pointless reply to me.
And it worked so thank you.:lips:
Apparently declaring victory when you've so obviously had the shit kicked out of you is a favored Ron Paul supporter attribute.
Quotes from Hillaryclinton.com -
"Individuals: will be required to get and keep insurance in a system where insurance is affordable and accessible. "
"Provide Tax Relief to Ensure Affordability: Working families will receive a refundable tax credit to help them afford high-quality health coverage.
Limit Premium Payments to a Percentage of Income: The refundable tax credit will be designed to prevent premiums from exceeding a percentage of family income, while maintaining consumer price consciousness in choosing health plans.
"
What percentage of family income?
What is a 'working' family?
I am not currently working, neither is my fiancee, we are students, yet having health insurance is absolutely essential for us. I have to get scans that cost upwards of 7500 dollars every 6 months, and she needs about 10,000 a year in prescription and preventative care measures. Since we are unemployed, are we shit out of luck?
We have no income. Zero. Nothing. The most I could possible work right now would be 10-15 hours a week in a low income, low physical activity job. Am I doing nothing? No, I go to school full-time. I volunteer when I have the time and energy to do so with helping out other cancer survivors.
Frankly, I don't support a person who receives donations from drug and health insurance companies and wants to mandate healthcare. Actually, sounds pretty damn scary to me.
The worst part is that if you actually go and read Obama and Hillary's healthcare proposal, you will realize they are 99% the same. With the exception that Barack, who does NOT take donations from health insurance companies, does not require a manadate.
He still plans to open up the Congressional healthcare plan, he still will provide tax credits and breaks so that low-income families CAN afford it if they CHOOSE to. In addition, he has a much greater focus on disease prevention rather than disease treatment, which is why healthcare costs are so high in the first place.
So you will have a choice of whether or not to participate in a healthcare program, you won't be turned away because you had/have disease x. Additionally, he wants to setup a government watchgroup to oversee Health Care companies to make sure they do not act in as a monopoly, given that 2-3 companies control almost all health insurance in the U.S.
Medicare is the most efficient health insurance system in the United States, with 2-3% overhead. Critics who think that number is misleading say they have ~15% overhead. The typical PRIVATE HMO has 30-40% overhead, so anyway you look at it the government run program is more efficient at providing care.
If the governmental health care system is opened up to everyone, it would force HMOs to take steps to compete with that plan. The end result is better healthcare for all of us, whether or not you participate in Barack's governmental plan or not.
Read the plans, then make up your mind. Don't just buy Hillary's plan hook,line, and sinker because it sounds nice without doing some research.
lozina
Lifer
- Sep 10, 2001
- 11,711
- 8
- 81
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
LMAO, you have to call me a hater because I don't support your choice of canidate!?!?!??
You just made my point, thank you.:lips:
No, I called you that to annoy you in retaliation for your annoying pointless reply to me.
And it worked so thank you.:lips:
Apparently declaring victory when you've so obviously had the shit kicked out of you is a favored Ron Paul supporter attribute.
Declaring victory?
Getting shit kicked out of you?
Talk about delusional...
Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
LMAO, you have to call me a hater because I don't support your choice of canidate!?!?!??
You just made my point, thank you.:lips:
No, I called you that to annoy you in retaliation for your annoying pointless reply to me.
And it worked so thank you.:lips:
Apparently declaring victory when you've so obviously had the shit kicked out of you is a favored Ron Paul supporter attribute.
Declaring victory?
Getting shit kicked out of you?
Talk about delusional...
You Ron Paul supporters should be an expert in that category. :laugh:
Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
LMAO, you have to call me a hater because I don't support your choice of canidate!?!?!??
You just made my point, thank you.:lips:
No, I called you that to annoy you in retaliation for your annoying pointless reply to me.
And it worked so thank you.:lips:
Apparently declaring victory when you've so obviously had the shit kicked out of you is a favored Ron Paul supporter attribute.
Declaring victory?
Getting shit kicked out of you?
Talk about delusional...
I don't understand why people like Ron Paul. I've read some of his ideas, and I think they are certifiably nuts.
Constitional Amendment ending 'jus soli'.
Pullback all of our troops from every single nation on the planet. (Umm...Korea=BOOM)
Dissolve IRS and Department of Education, give all the power back to the states.
So people get to choose what their kids will learn in school. Terrific, evolution taught next to intelligent design!
Not to mention that IF he won the election, his ability to enact many of these changes simply because he was president would not be possible.
We already had a government where the states were in charge. Go look up Articles of Confederation and learn how it turned out!
jonks
Lifer
- Feb 7, 2005
- 13,918
- 20
- 81
Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Apparently declaring victory when you've so obviously had the shit kicked out of you is a favored Ron Paul supporter attribute.
Declaring victory?
Getting shit kicked out of you?
Talk about delusional...
I seem to recall online polls showing paul winning with upwards of 30-50% of the vote for, well, everywhere. Accusations of flooding the poll were denied, and it was claimed these were accurate results. Meanwhile, scientifically conducted polls put him at about 10%. His showings in Iowa and NH were at about 10%. I haven't seen any RP peeps admit the online polls were overrun by fans trying to create hype or concessions that the telephone polls had it right all along.
Delusional isn't the right word, b/c RP followers see reality and just deny it. They aren't deluded, they simply won't admit the truth.
RP followers: RP will win IA and NH! Everyone else: RP will get about 10% if he's lucky.
RP followers: telephone polls are rigged, he'll get much higher than 10% as the online polls show.
Everyone else: the online polls are clearly being flooded and flocked to by RP supporters, the gallup/rasmussen/etc polls are right
RP followers: the media is ignoring RP b/c they're afraid of him
Everyone else: the media is ignoring RP b/c he is a distant longshot and is not likely to win anything, so they don't want to waste the time on him
RP followers: NH is mostly independent so RP will really shine here and get most of the independent vote
Everyone else: the independents will vote McCain/Obama for the most part
Who was part of the "delusional" set?
You do see Pabster and Evan Lieb and all the other people who predicted Clinton dead yesterday admitting today they were wrong. There was a vote, Clinton won, mea culpas ensue, not claims Clinton didn't really win or other excuses. Why is it so hard for RP'ers to just admit what everyone else knows? Being contrary for the sake of contrariness just pisses people off.
lozina
Lifer
- Sep 10, 2001
- 11,711
- 8
- 81
Do you realize how much money we spend funding troops across the planet? It's astronomical. And who's interests does it serve? Certainly not ours, as that money is coming from our checkbooks.
Education in this nation is broken. It needs radical changes if we are to have any hope of our children competing intellectually with foreigners. Look at statistics comparing our public funded education to other nations.
And the states wouldn't be in charge, there would be a Fed Gov. It would just be much much smaller and hence interfere in our lives less and demand less tribute from us in form of direct taxation
lozina
Lifer
- Sep 10, 2001
- 11,711
- 8
- 81
Originally posted by: sirjonk
Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Apparently declaring victory when you've so obviously had the shit kicked out of you is a favored Ron Paul supporter attribute.
Declaring victory?
Getting shit kicked out of you?
Talk about delusional...
I seem to recall online polls showing paul winning with upwards of 30-50% of the vote for, well, everywhere. Accusations of flooding the poll were denied, and it was claimed these were accurate results. Meanwhile, scientifically conducted polls put him at about 10%. His showings in Iowa and NH were at about 10%. I haven't seen any RP peeps admit the online polls were overrun by fans trying to create hype or concessions that the telephone polls had it right all along.
Delusional isn't the right word, b/c RP followers see reality and just deny it. They aren't deluded, they simply won't admit the truth.
RP followers: RP will win IA and NH! Everyone else: RP will get about 10% if he's lucky.
RP followers: telephone polls are rigged, he'll get much higher than 10% as the online polls show.
Everyone else: the online polls are clearly being flooded and flocked to by RP supporters, the gallup/rasmussen/etc polls are right
RP followers: the media is ignoring RP b/c they're afraid of him
Everyone else: the media is ignoring RP b/c he is a distant longshot and is not likely to win anything, so they don't want to waste the time on him
RP followers: NH is mostly independent so RP will really shine here and get most of the independent vote
Everyone else: the independents will vote McCain/Obama for the most part
Who was part of the "delusional" set?
Well, if you take the observations of a few, and apply them to the whole, you will not get accurate results, at least when the subject are humans.
I don't know why you or some other posters insist on projecting the opinions of others onto me just so they can call me delusional or whatever, I guess it's when you combine childish behavior with the lack of an argument you have no alternative but to do that.
I never predicted RP to win NH, he got just what I expected and I'm really pleased with the results.
And what is so wrong with having a passion for your candidate? Why is it only Ron Paul supporters get the loaded adjectives "rabid", "fanatic", "zealous" while the loyal fans of other candidates get "loving", "organized" and "passionate" adjectives?
There's a lot of prejudices when it comes to Ron Paul and it's fun to watch some of the posters here reveal just who they are.
Our troops overseas help us tremendously. For one, we have infrastructure in place so that if a hotzone errupts we can respond anywhere, anytime, within 24 hours. No other military in the world has that capability. This means if we want to retaliate against say, oh, a terroist attack, we don't need to spend three months building a base so that it can happen.
Our troops in Korea serve as a deterent for a radical regime and provide stability to South Korea, one of our largest trading partners. Our troops (really, sailors) in the strait between China and Taiwan allow Taiwan to function independently without fear of being exterminated.
Soldiers and Airmen in Europe work with our allies daily to ensure that joint operations can function smoothly. Without these joint training exercises, the amount of fraticide in our military operations would increase tremendously. Not to mention they would be less effective.
We cannot simply withdraw from the world and hope all the problems will go away. We tried that in WWI and WWII and it did not work. The problems came to us.
Do I think we should be entagled in Iraq? No. But we do have to maintain stability in this region because our entire economy relies on Oil. Do I like that? No. We need aggressive funding to make ourselves oil free ASAP.
I'm all for less entanglement in foreign affairs, but not withdrawal from the world. Globalization is real, and it won't end because we put our hands over our ears and go 'lalala'.
Our Education system IS seriously messed up. I think No Child Left Behind is far from perfect, but it's a step in the right direction. It needs radical reform to be effective. Many people at the department of education work hard every single day to improve our education system. Those who do not should be fired. The bureacracy needs to be fixed.
The main problem with our education system right now is how it is funded. It's based on property taxes. So if you live in a rich area, your schools are well-funded and well-equipped. If you live in the inner city, your school is broke and falling apart.
lozina
Lifer
- Sep 10, 2001
- 11,711
- 8
- 81
Well, you have your opinion on foreign policy and I respect that. And don't think your nuts because you don't agree with mine. To me, to try and be prepared for every possibly conflict in the world is simply not feasible and to even attempt it like we do with our worldwide military presence is a waste of resources. There is a chicken and egg argument concerning our "problems" in the world. Which came first, our problems, or our military presence? Take the most polpular terrorist in the world- what was his beef with America? That we had troops in Saudi Arabia... I don't remember our country dealing with so many problems with "terrorism" prior to the past several decades. Was terrorism only invented recently? Or is it because since WW2 we've been actively meddling in the affairs of other nations.
That is our fundamental difference in opinion here. And it's good that we can disagree on things because maybe sometimes the best solution is somewhere between mine and yours, for example.
Can't say I'm surprised.
Most likely this is why the other polls though Obama would win by a landslide before precincts started reporting HIllary winning. Probably Obama DID win it.
Not a coincidence that the first time the exit polls were "wrong" got us Bush.
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
- 50,422
- 14,337
- 136
Government cannot do and be everything for everyone. It's just not possible. Expecting that is simply irrational and unreasonable. We can't guarantee that there will never be wars, or sickness, or hardship, or death. We would all like to see them go away but those things will always exist. It's not evil, it's not sin, it's not punishment, it's not because some people don't believe "the right way" (whatever that right way may be, whether religious belief or political ideology), or any of that. They just are.
And I'm not going to say it's because we don't live in a perfect world, because that's not ther case either. Perfection is a personal opinion with no basis in reality. It is what it is.
And I'm not going to say it's because we don't live in a perfect world, because that's not ther case either. Perfection is a personal opinion with no basis in reality. It is what it is.
For healthcare?
1.) Illegalize Pre-Existing Condition Clauses (i.e., discrimination because of disability)
2.) Refocus healthcare on disease prevention, not disease management. Offer small tax credits to cover the cost of a gym membership and for behaviors that are pro-health, such as not smoking. Establish programs that ensure children have access to basic healthcare, such as vaccinations and educate them on the importance of taking care of their bodies.
3.) Open up a governmental program that provides individuals the option of buying affordable healthcare. Create credits and tax breaks exist so that everyone can afford to buy into it. Allow individuals who chose to remain with private insurer's to use their health insurance costs as a tax credit.
4.) Establish a governmental review board to ensure fair business practices among private health insurance companies (a 'watchdog')
5.) Work to moderize the health care system, placing medical records on computers and creating electronic networks for health providers always have up to date information on patients. Make the system more efficient.
Am I leaning towards socialism? Yes, not not as extreme as you may think. I think healthcare in this country is broken. Insurance companies have hung Americans out to dry. Huge conglomerates now control almost all of the American insurance industry, and they have abused their power. Basically, the private industry has shown itself inadequate in handling healthcare, because nearly 50 million people still don't have any. Adequate healthcare should be a right guaranteed to every single citizen in the United States, not a privaledge for the wealthy.
There is a lot that needs to be done.
Anyway, that's my opinion. I'm only 23, and I was lucky to have excellent health insurance through my parents while I had cancer. My fiancee is lucky as well. But just because I was lucky enough to have good coverage doesn't mean I should live, and someone else should die.
Insurance companies couldnt afford that. People who have pre-existing conditions would cause them to lose hundreds of millions or even billions a year.
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