~~~The Official New Hampshire Primary Thread~~~

[Carmen813]

Originally posted by: Wreckem

1.) Illegalize Pre-Existing Condition Clauses (i.e., discrimination because of disability)

Insurance companies couldnt afford that. People who have pre-existing conditions would cause them to lose hundreds of millions or even billions a year.

Ok, I'll bite Mind you, this is highly personal to me.

You are of course correct, it isn't profitable. Perhaps HMOs should be not-for-profit organizations.

I have never had a cigarette, done drugs, I rarely drink, and when I was diagnosed I was an ROTC cadet who had recently scored 'Outstanding' on the Air Force Physical Fitness test. I was scheduled to go active duty this past May.

Because I was unlucky enough to get cancer, I should die. My follow on treament runs about 20,000 dollars a year. No matter what I pay, no one is going to make a profit off of me...cept maybe the drug companies.

Every time I go for a CAT scan, I get a letter from Bluecross/Blueshield telling me that they are reviewing the medical need of the procedure. These cat scans are used to determine if I am still in remission. The key to treating cancer is finding it EARLY so that it can be treated before it spreads.

If I don't have adequate preventative maintenance, my cancer could very easily come back and spread and I wouldn't know until it is to late. I would almost certainly die. Because I wasn't profitable, I am not worth treating.

That is the core of your argument, even though it's not what you said. Cancer death rates among the uninsured are DOUBLE that of those who have adequate healthcare. It's a death sentence.

Cancer survival rates among 20-40 year olds has declined in the past 30 years, while all other survival rates have improved. This group is the most likely to not have adequate healthcare.

Now, not everyone is like me, but I'm going to assume I'm not the only person who had a run of bad luck.

So my response to it not being profitable? To bad. You can't put a price tag on a life.


I should mention that both Hillary and Obama plan to outlaw pre-existing condition clauses.

 

[SSSnail]

Originally posted by: Carmen813

Originally posted by: SSSnail
Hi Carmen813,

I've read your posts and sympathize with your situation and cause, but what do you suggest that we do? Communism?

For healthcare?

1.) Illegalize Pre-Existing Condition Clauses (i.e., discrimination because of disability)
That'll leave the system wide open for abuse, which will drive the cost of others that don't have pre-existing conditions. I don't want to pay for your disease (not you specifically).

2.) Refocus healthcare on disease prevention, not disease management. Offer small tax credits to cover the cost of a gym membership and for behaviors that are pro-health, such as not smoking. Establish programs that ensure children have access to basic healthcare, such as vaccinations and educate them on the importance of taking care of their bodies.
Not yet tax, but all insurance company do give incentives for healthy habits, in the form of lesser fees. Children are taught PE in schools, it's up to them and their parents to sustain the discipline. Again, it's not my business and I shouldn't have to pay for some one else's irresponsibility.

3.) Open up a governmental program that provides individuals the option of buying affordable healthcare. Create credits and tax breaks exist so that everyone can afford to buy into it. Allow individuals who chose to remain with private insurer's to use their health insurance costs as a tax credit.
Define "affordable", you mean free? Or do you want other people to pitch in because someone can't afford for the care? A lot of money are spent on health care professionals; Docs, nurses, research, etc... They all need to get paid.

4.) Establish a governmental review board to ensure fair business practices among private health insurance companies (a 'watchdog')
I think they have something like this already, just need them to do their job.

5.) Work to moderize the health care system, placing medical records on computers and creating electronic networks for health providers always have up to date information on patients. Make the system more efficient.
They're working on that, takes some time.

Am I leaning towards socialism? Yes, not not as extreme as you may think. I think healthcare in this country is broken. Insurance companies have hung Americans out to dry. Huge conglomerates now control almost all of the American insurance industry, and they have abused their power. Basically, the private industry has shown itself inadequate in handling healthcare, because nearly 50 million people still don't have any. Adequate healthcare should be a right guaranteed to every single citizen in the United States, not a privaledge for the wealthy.

There is a lot that needs to be done.

Anyway, that's my opinion. I'm only 23, and I was lucky to have excellent health insurance through my parents while I had cancer. My fiancee is lucky as well. But just because I was lucky enough to have good coverage doesn't mean I should live, and someone else should die.
A lot of people that are saying they can't afford health insurance aren't looking at other venues. I suppose some won't get it, but there are government programs out there that will offer assistant to those in need. If we can devise a program where everyone pays equally and reaps the same benefits, I'm all for it. I just don't want to have a system where certain individuals can expect entitlement because of their social or income status, that will then breed abuse and complacency, much like the current welfare system. I also don't want to have to pay for someone else's problem, call me selfish.

 

[Carmen813]

Ok, your selfish!

We all pay for things with taxes that we get no direct benefit from. People in NY pay for things that only people in Oregon benefit from.

Like it or not, you are paying for someone else's problem, somewhere, and you might as well get used to it. You might not like it, but that's how it is, and it isn't going to change no matter who wins the election.

The system as is already is open to abuse, it's just the abuse is benefiting the corporations, and not individuals.

Statistically, someday you will get sick and someone will be paying for you. The ~3500 dollars a year you pay in health insurance costs would last approximately one month if you become seriously injured/ill. Then someone else starts picking up the tab.

That's how it works in our society.

By affordable I mean you should pitch in that which you can afford. If you work two jobs with a family of four making 20,000 a year, you should still be covered. Just like the guy who works on his own making 90,000 a year. Everyone is different. Personally, I think a good way to pay for healthcare is to put a national sales tax on cigarettes, alcohol, and fast food (Yah yah, that's nuts...)




'Children are taught PE in schools, it's up to them and their parents to sustain the discipline. Again, it's not my business and I shouldn't have to pay for some one else's irresponsibility'

You are already paying for it. Childhood obesity leads to adult obesity, which is epidemic in the United States. The only way you will stop paying for it is if we work harder to encourage schools to make physical education a priority. To stand by and do nothing when you witness a problem is it's own form of irresponsibility.

As for the other venues, you are right, there are some options, but they apply only to the extremely poor. Most middle class (people making >20k a year) are not eligible. They should be.

 

[imported_Shivetya]

Originally posted by: BrownTown
Well shit now Clinton is back on track...

She closed the gap, that is sure.

Obama has 25 delegates
Hillary, 24
Edwards 18

Romney has 24
Huckabee 18
McCain 10
Thompson 6
Ghouliani 1


The key isn't finishing first, its finishing the best at all times. A few more whompings and she will slide... but still win in the end... if not on the first vote then the second or third..

 

[Starbuck1975]

Can someone explain to me why NH is a Clinton victory? Both her and Obama secured 9 delegates...she won the popular vote by an insignificant margin...last I checked, this is a tie?

 

[Jinru]

Update on the Sutton and Greenville situation for Ron Paul, this also applies to Obama as well.

http://www.bostonnow.com/blogs...fraud-in-new-hampshire

 

[SSSnail]

Carmen,

Oh, I get it, so since I'm already paying, pay more won't hurt right? That's exactly what's wrong with this country, a sense of entitlement by everybody that's not paying.

You're right, I'm paying for someone else's problem. I'm paying SS that I'll never see, I'm paying federal taxes so that we can use it to fund wars on someone else's country while ignoring our own problems. I'm paying all sort of taxes to take care of I don't know what other problems, but I'm sure they're not mine because I have yet to benefit from anything I'm paying for (oh yes, I do have these freeways that I drive on, yay, something free). I'm paying health insurance, again, for naught, I'm healthy. I should be the one crying, not the people that's not paying anything and still crying that it's not enough.

Everything that you're pointing out screams socialism or communism, let's just pool everything and everyone gets a piece. No.

The money that I pay every year for health care is not sitting idle, it's being used to make more money and that in itself will pay for my illness. And yes, we're already paying taxes on everything you've mentioned, and more.

The health problem with most Americans, more specifically obesity, has nothing to do with education but more of a social problem. Most parents don't have the necessary parenting skills or the discipline themselves to take care of the problems, or motivating their kids properly. That's akin to saying that because people didn't push themselves hard enough in school to learn a skill, a trade, or and education and now they don't earn enough money. That's not anyone's fault but their own, and that's not my problems to deal with and I shouldn't have to.

So by saying "pitch in what you can afford", are you suggesting that if you make $20K, you should pitch in $20? While the guy that makes $90K shell out $900? That was an example of the absurdity in your argument.

FYI, if you're making >$20K a year, that's not anywhere near middle class. Heck, people making >$100K a year now wouldn't even consider middle class. Regardless, the people that make $100K shouldn't be paying for the $20K.

Speaking of which, can I cash out my SS now since I've earned more than enough SS credits?

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
Can someone explain to me why NH is a Clinton victory? Both her and Obama secured 9 delegates...she won the popular vote by an insignificant margin...last I checked, this is a tie?

Same reason Bill Clinton finishing a close 2nd in 1992 was a big win. It's all about managing expectations. Knocked the momentum out of Obama coming out of Iowa. No 1-2 punch first round knockout for him, this is going 12 rounds. And Clinton has organization and resources to fight an endurance fight very well.

 

[Carmen813]

I never said pay more, don't put words in my mouth. There are tons of improvements that could be made in healthcare and other areas that would result in savings that would MORE than cover the cost of providing everyone with equal access to healthcare. Making the system more efficient by utilizing readily available technology alone would be enough to save billions every year.

If it's done right, you will never notice an increase in your taxes and you will have coverage for the rest of your life without having to worry about what happens to you, which doctor you see, or where you are when something goes wrong.

The problem is the insurance companies did such a good job of scaring the hell out of people in the 1990s that they haven't even look at universal coverage again. All you need to do is toss a 'socialist' or 'communist' label on it and pretend there is nothing wrong because people (namely, OLD people) start panicing and thinking about soviet tanks and missiles landing in their backyard.

The reason you need to educate people about the importance of taking care of themselves is because in the long run that will SAVE money and stimulate the economy. If a person can work full-time because they are in shape and not obese that will benefit the economy a whole hell of a lot more than if they were overweight and getting treatment for high blood pressure, diabetes, and the whole plethora of other diseases correlated with being overweight.

Disease prevention education is absolutely essential to changing the social problem you described.

The money you put into a health insurance company will almost certainly NOT cover you, even if the company doubles or tripes its. Realistically, you would pay what, 80-100,000 dollars over the course of your life time? My cancer treatment cost well over 500,000. And I never spent a night in a hospital.

Insurance agencies collect money from thousands of people and pay out as little as possible to remain profitable. They could not turn a profit from a single person. If every single person in their organization required healthcare simultaneously they would collapse. They hedge their bets, hoping that nature works in their favor.

Turning healthcare into a profitable business was a ridiculous and stupid idea in the first place. All the big not-for-profit HMOs were bought out by money grubbing executives out to make a buck of the little guy. There are 48 million people in the US without health insurance, and 9 million of them are children. They won't cover them because it won't make them money. It's that simple.

The biological fact of the matter is that the longer people live, even if they live perfectly healthy lives, the chance of a serious illness such as cancer rises. Your genes fall apart as you get old (or to be more exact, your telomeres). People get sick, it's inevitable.

There's another arguement to be made, and thats with regard to big businesses paying for healthcare. General Motors has been getting absolutely destroyed because of their high health insurance costs. They can't compete with other international corporations who do not have to worry about providing it to their employees because they pay less through taxes.

I'd appreciate if you stopped hurling socialist and communist labels at me. I am not a socialist, I am not a communist. I have experienced how flawed our health coverage system in this country is first hand twice. Sense of entitlement? Your fucking right I have one, I don't deserve to die because some greedy executive wants to take home another million bucks. Fuck him. I did nothing wrong, I work my ass off to do well in school so that I can get a well paying job and give something back to society.

I'm not hurling labels back, stick to the issue, or don't discuss it with me.

I don't believe in most entitlement programs, but healthcare is the one area I do. It's simply not right to turn someone away and let them die because they can't afford healthcare. It's. Not. Right.

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
Can someone explain to me why NH is a Clinton victory? Both her and Obama secured 9 delegates...she won the popular vote by an insignificant margin...last I checked, this is a tie?

According to my local newspaper, it was a "Stunning Victory" for Hillary :laugh:

You're right. In fact, Obama has 1 more delegate than she does currently. So she's still behind. :laugh:

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
Can someone explain to me why NH is a Clinton victory? Both her and Obama secured 9 delegates...she won the popular vote by an insignificant margin...last I checked, this is a tie?

According to my local newspaper, it was a "Stunning Victory" for Hillary :laugh:

You're right. In fact, Obama has 1 more delegate than she does currently. So she's still behind. :laugh:

Actually, if you include 'super delegates' Hillary is somewhat ahead:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D...tial_primaries%2C_2008

"235 Democratic House members and nonvoting delegates, 49 senators, the District of Columbia's two shadow congresspeople and 28 governors, a total 314 in all, are automatically delegates to the convention. These "superdelegates," almost 16 percent of the 2,025 delegates (4,049 total) a candidate will need to secure the party's presidential nomination, while officially uncommitted and thus "unreplaceable", can publicly endorse a candidate, adding to his and her total. As of January 5, 2008, the totals were: Hillary Clinton 154; Barack Obama 50; John Edwards 33; Bill Richardson 19; Dennis Kucinich 1. In addition, all members of the Democratic National Committee are automatically delegates, and there are a small number of distinguished party leaders and other unpledged delegates, leading to a total of 852 unpledged delegates"

I think after IA and NH the standings are: Clinton 183, Obama 78 and Edwards 52.

 

[Pabster]

I'm not including 'super' delegates. But thanks for the clarification

 

[lozina]

Is this guy one of those 'super delegates'?? click

 

[Wreckem]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
Can someone explain to me why NH is a Clinton victory? Both her and Obama secured 9 delegates...she won the popular vote by an insignificant margin...last I checked, this is a tie?

According to my local newspaper, it was a "Stunning Victory" for Hillary :laugh:

You're right. In fact, Obama has 1 more delegate than she does currently. So she's still behind. :laugh:

Actually, she has 105 more than him. The reason for this is those pesky "Super Delegates" on the GOP side.

 

[Wreckem]

Originally posted by: Pabster
I'm not including 'super' delegates. But thanks for the clarification

You should because when all is said and done, she'll get the vast majority of the Super Delegates.

 

[Wreckem]

Originally posted by: lozina
Is this guy one of those 'super delegates'?? click

No but Howard "Arrrggh" Dean is.

 

[nageov3t]

Originally posted by: sirjonk
Dennis Kucinich 1.

did he endorse himself? :laugh:

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: loki8481
did he endorse himself? :laugh:

That's classified. :laugh:

 

[SSSnail]

I don't want to appear as an insensitive prick, nor I'm downplaying your suffering but... not everyone have cancer and not everyone will incur $500K in their lifetime in medical expenses. Most people will pay into the system much more than they will ever get out of it.

Speaking on your term, you'd have to be a millionaire to "afford" your fair share of the cost, understood?

 

[Pabster]

For anyone still asking "What happened to the polling?", Here Is Rasmussen's Take On It

 

[Carmen813]

Originally posted by: SSSnail
I don't want to appear as an insensitive prick, nor I'm downplaying your suffering but... not everyone have cancer and not everyone will incur $500K in their lifetime in medical expenses. Most people will pay into the system much more than they will ever get out of it.

Speaking on your term, you'd have to be a millionaire to "afford" your fair share of the cost, understood?

No I understand where you are coming from, sorry I went off the deep rail there. Statisticall, 1/3 women and 2/3 men will have cancer at some point. You do have a valid opinion, I just feel we have a social responsibility on a higher level.

I'll go take some of the meds you bought for me now (couldn't resist)

 

[Confusednewbie1552]

Originally posted by: Corbett

Originally posted by: Confusednewbie1552

Originally posted by: Corbett

Originally posted by: bamacre
Four years from now, we'll have the moral authority to bitch about all the problems going unsolved, and the new ones that pop up.

I'd love to bring back up your conspiracy theories in 4 years just to see how they played out. North American Union would be number one on my list to see just how that turned out.

In any case, good waste of money donating to Paul. And here I thought his supporters were for fiscal responsiblity.

Why do you have such an insane passion for hating someone you claim to be a waste of time

I dont hate Paul. I actually like some of his ideas (very few I should say). However, his rabid supporters here are a whole different story. They claim if you dont support Pauls ideas you are just a person who wants to kill brown people, and thats just one of the many crazy things they believe.

So yes, i will admit I take an unhealthy ammount of enjoyment in seeing their latest savior do so poorly, but mostly because of the constant barrage of condescending posts from his supporters you see here every hour.

Funny, not a peep from Perry or PC Surgeon yet. LAWL!

Fair enough, I agree, people ought to be less condescending.

Edit: Although, I do think you ought to lay down your anti-paul speech. It seems every post you write is an anti-paul post. Just ignore the paul supporters or make a thread about it instead of saying it in every single post you make.

 

[Pabster]

That crow is going to be rotten by the time PC Surgeon and Perry404 get back here. :laugh:

 

[CitizenKain]

So, Paultards across the country harassed clerk in Sutton County, NH because of a clerical error. This is about the 31 votes that didn't show up during the primaries initially, but did show up the next morning when they double checked the tallies. They discovered the mistake and fixed it. This was also about 31 votes, out of the 920 the county had.

The assault picked up after lunch. Paul supporters phoning Call claimed to be from the media. Others just yelled, saying she had committed treason, fraud. One person said she should be shot. She received as many as 40 calls that day.

The true of sign of rational people.
Paul supporters 'freak out' town clerk

 

[Corbett]

Originally posted by: Pabster
That crow is going to be rotten by the time PC Surgeon and Perry404 get back here. :laugh:

They have jumped ship on this thread, thats for sure. Now they are just back to their old ways of posting in other threads about Paul being superior to all other candidates.