The Islamic thread

[Bumrush99]

Sultan, what is the Muslim view of Issac, who to the Jews rightfully stole the blessing of his father from Ishmael? Is Ishmael the forefather of Mohammed?

 

[rufruf44]

From Islamic standpoint, whats the course of action when a moslem is confronted by those that perform the act of spreading another religion?

 

[rufruf44]

In the same realm with the question above, whats the penalty for those ex-moslem who abandoned Islam? IIRC, the Hadith has some serious repercussion toward them (killing them if not mistaken).

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: Bumrush99
Sultan, what is the Muslim view of Issac, who to the Jews rightfully stole the blessing of his father from Ishmael? Is Ishmael the forefather of Mohammed?

I am not well-versed in the historical aspects of Islam. From a website:

Ishmael*
The son of Abraham, Ishmael is known as Ismail in Arabic. For Islam, Ishmael is the ancestor of the (northern) Arabs. He is a prophet, and assisted Abraham in buildling the Kaba. He is seen as the most important of Abraham's two sons; this is the reverse of Judaism and Christianity which sees Isaac as the dominant son. Indeed, in the story about Abraham almost sacrificing his son, Islam identifies the son as Ishmael, not Isaac.

Source: Link

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: rufruf44
In the same realm with the question above, whats the penalty for those ex-moslem who abandoned Islam? IIRC, the Hadith has some serious repercussion toward them (killing them if not mistaken).

Yes, the punishment for Riddah, apostasy is death. A more comprehensive answer is given below from Islamiccity.com

Riddah is apostasy, and by definition, it is the PUBLIC act of leaving one's religion to another belief system (which can be atheism). By the way, "public" includes telling any person of the act and doesn't have to be in a press conference to be public. Therefore, regardless if someone leaves Islam and only tells one other person or a group of people about the act, the judgment for that person would be the same. He/she would have done something damaging to Islam by expressing that he was once a Muslim and no longer believes that the Divine Law is the correct Law. As to the issue of how to apply the judgment on an apostate, the killing is not applied immediately. In an Islamic State, the judge makes the judgment to his discretion, and he may ask the apostate to rethink his decision and to repent; the judge also gives him a period of time after which the final judgment is applied. Thank you for asking and God knows best.

I am sure you will disagree with the law, but it is an Islamic law, Muslims, including me believe in it, and we can debate on it ad nauseum, but I stand by it.

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: rufruf44
From Islamic standpoint, whats the course of action when a moslem is confronted by those that perform the act of spreading another religion?

I dont believe there is any. However, I am unsure of the Islamic ruling on this subject, maybe some other Muslim on this forum can assist you with this question.

A small quote from Islamiccity Q&A:

Islam is not a faith which seeks the suppression of other religions, nor does it stamp out religious freedom. Indeed, it preaches freedom of belief and tries to protect that freedom wherever possible.

 

[rufruf44]

Isn't your last 2 post contradicting each other? How can Islamiccity make such statement about religious freedom when the Hadith stated death for those who abandon Islam?

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: rufruf44
Isn't your last 2 post contradicting each other? How can Islamiccity make such statement about religious freedom when the Hadith stated death for those who abandon Islam?

No, Islam is not a faith which seeks the suppression of other religions. Riddah is the PUBLIC act of leaving Islam to another belief system.

 

[Aimster]

So Sultan do you believe if I convert to Christianity I deserve to die?

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: Aimster
So Sultan do you believe if I convert to Christianity I deserve to die?

Do you really find it hard to comprehend the following:

Riddah is apostasy, and by definition, it is the PUBLIC act of leaving one's religion to another belief system (which can be atheism). By the way, "public" includes telling any person of the act and doesn't have to be in a press conference to be public. Therefore, regardless if someone leaves Islam and only tells one other person or a group of people about the act, the judgment for that person would be the same. He/she would have done something damaging to Islam by expressing that he was once a Muslim and no longer believes that the Divine Law is the correct Law. As to the issue of how to apply the judgment on an apostate, the killing is not applied immediately. In an Islamic State, the judge makes the judgment to his discretion, and he may ask the apostate to rethink his decision and to repent; the judge also gives him a period of time after which the final judgment is applied. Thank you for asking and God knows best.

If you are asking for my PERSONAL opinion, you can PM me, this thread is meant to reply to questions on Islamic laws.

 

[rufruf44]

I don't think you getting what I'm trying to convey. Say you're a missionary in an islamic world. You preach christianity to moslem, which according to Islam is permittable and will not be suppresed. But the moment a moslem convert to Christianity, he's punishable by death. Isn't that the same with saying, "Sure, you can preach and convert moslem if you want, but we're going to kill them if they do." Don't you see that as contradicting? How's that not detering the missionary from preaching christianity?

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: rufruf44
In the same realm with the question above, whats the penalty for those ex-moslem who abandoned Islam? IIRC, the Hadith has some serious repercussion toward them (killing them if not mistaken).

Yes, the punishment for Riddah, apostasy is death. A more comprehensive answer is given below from Islamiccity.com

Riddah is apostasy, and by definition, it is the PUBLIC act of leaving one's religion to another belief system (which can be atheism). By the way, "public" includes telling any person of the act and doesn't have to be in a press conference to be public. Therefore, regardless if someone leaves Islam and only tells one other person or a group of people about the act, the judgment for that person would be the same. He/she would have done something damaging to Islam by expressing that he was once a Muslim and no longer believes that the Divine Law is the correct Law. As to the issue of how to apply the judgment on an apostate, the killing is not applied immediately. In an Islamic State, the judge makes the judgment to his discretion, and he may ask the apostate to rethink his decision and to repent; the judge also gives him a period of time after which the final judgment is applied. Thank you for asking and God knows best.

I am sure you will disagree with the law, but it is an Islamic law, Muslims, including me believe in it, and we can debate on it ad nauseum, but I stand by it.

That's not a very tolerant belief at all. Why do you have to force your religion upon others? Things like this & the jizyah minority mafia tax are forcing Islamic beliefs onto people that don't believe in Islam.

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: rufruf44
I don't think you getting what I'm trying to convey. Say you're a missionary in an islamic world. You preach christianity to moslem, which according to Islam is permittable and will not be suppresed. But the moment a moslem convert to Christianity, he's punishable by death. Isn't that the same with saying, "Sure, you can preach and convert moslem if you want, but we're going to kill them if they do." Don't you see that as contradicting? How's that not detering the missionary from preaching christianity?

As I said before, I am unsure of the Islamic ruling on this subject, maybe some other Muslim on this forum can assist you with this question.

However, going along your train of thought, the Christian missionary neednt fear for his safety, while the Muslim person who knows the Islamic faith should be aware of the consequence of his PUBLIC announcement of apostasy. Again, the punishment of Riddah is comprehensively defined above, an Islamic judge is needed to warrant the punishment, so on and so forth...

 

[dahunan]

Are honor killings moral?

Can a man kill his wife and children from that wife if she was raped or if she cheated on him?

 

[Aimster]

Everything you are saying Sultan is not practiced in today's society. Even in the majority of the Muslim countries. That is why I continue to stick my nose in this thread.

Most of these rules were there to help the growth of Islam. Why? Because back then they were going against Christianity and you need to keep your new faith strong if you want it to survive. Times have changed and there is no point for any of these rules. The majority of Muslims agree with me. Look at the governments in Muslim countries. They follow the Laws of Islam as well.

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: dahunan
Are honor killings moral?

Can a man kill his wife and children from that wife if she was raped or if she cheated on him?

Honor killings are not part of Islamic law. Period.

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: Aimster
Everything you are saying Sultan is not practiced in today's society. Even in the majority of the Muslim countries. That is why I continue to stick my nose in this thread.

Most of these rules were there to help the growth of Islam. Why? Because back then they were going against Christianity and you need to keep your new faith strong if you want it to survive. Times have changed and there is no point for any of these rules. The majority of Muslims agree with me. Look at the governments in Muslim countries. They follow the Laws of Islam as well.

This is the THIRD time I am repeating the same thing:

I meant this thread to serve as a means to understand the Islamic RELIGION, not debate on the cultural and traditional norms of different nations of the world.

I dont understand you. When countries DO practice the Islamic laws, you criticize them, such as death penalty for adulterors, or enforcement of the Hijaab. I have yet to see you offer any encouraging words about any Muslim majority nation. I have so far seen you criticize Iran, Saudi Arabia and Palestine amongst others. And now you say the majority of Muslim countries dont practice the above Islamic laws? Please make up your mind.

I dont know what Christianity has to do with men/women lowering their gaze, marriage on puberty, and the other topics we have discussed here in this thread. I seriously do not know how you base your opinions. The Arabs at the time of the Prophet (S.A) were mostly pagans, idolators or Jews. To say that the apostasy law was formulated specifically because Muslims were going against Christianity is the biggest distortion of information I have yet seen from you.

Are you saying that since the times have changed, the Quran is irrelevant? Or do you just pick and choose which parts of the Quran you wish to follow? And please do tell me how a "good" Muslim like you picks and chooses which parts of the Quran are relevant in these times? If you can draw up all the relevant rules that you choose to follow in the present times, that would be more helpful to bring about your point of view.

And to claim that the majority of Muslims agree with you is laughable at best. Please dont take offense. There's a few Muslim members on this forum. I am not saying they all agree with me but if you PM them and ask whether they agree with you, and they reply in the affirmative, I will accept that the majority of Muslims agree with you.

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: rufruf44
In the same realm with the question above, whats the penalty for those ex-moslem who abandoned Islam? IIRC, the Hadith has some serious repercussion toward them (killing them if not mistaken).

Yes, the punishment for Riddah, apostasy is death. A more comprehensive answer is given below from Islamiccity.com

Riddah is apostasy, and by definition, it is the PUBLIC act of leaving one's religion to another belief system (which can be atheism). By the way, "public" includes telling any person of the act and doesn't have to be in a press conference to be public. Therefore, regardless if someone leaves Islam and only tells one other person or a group of people about the act, the judgment for that person would be the same. He/she would have done something damaging to Islam by expressing that he was once a Muslim and no longer believes that the Divine Law is the correct Law. As to the issue of how to apply the judgment on an apostate, the killing is not applied immediately. In an Islamic State, the judge makes the judgment to his discretion, and he may ask the apostate to rethink his decision and to repent; the judge also gives him a period of time after which the final judgment is applied. Thank you for asking and God knows best.

I am sure you will disagree with the law, but it is an Islamic law, Muslims, including me believe in it, and we can debate on it ad nauseum, but I stand by it.

That's not a very tolerant belief at all. Why do you have to force your religion upon others? Things like this & the jizyah minority mafia tax are forcing Islamic beliefs onto people that don't believe in Islam.

I am not asking you to follow the belief. It is part of Islamic law. A Muslim must abide by the law, just as you abide by the laws of the land you live in.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: rufruf44
In the same realm with the question above, whats the penalty for those ex-moslem who abandoned Islam? IIRC, the Hadith has some serious repercussion toward them (killing them if not mistaken).

Yes, the punishment for Riddah, apostasy is death. A more comprehensive answer is given below from Islamiccity.com

Riddah is apostasy, and by definition, it is the PUBLIC act of leaving one's religion to another belief system (which can be atheism). By the way, "public" includes telling any person of the act and doesn't have to be in a press conference to be public. Therefore, regardless if someone leaves Islam and only tells one other person or a group of people about the act, the judgment for that person would be the same. He/she would have done something damaging to Islam by expressing that he was once a Muslim and no longer believes that the Divine Law is the correct Law. As to the issue of how to apply the judgment on an apostate, the killing is not applied immediately. In an Islamic State, the judge makes the judgment to his discretion, and he may ask the apostate to rethink his decision and to repent; the judge also gives him a period of time after which the final judgment is applied. Thank you for asking and God knows best.

I am sure you will disagree with the law, but it is an Islamic law, Muslims, including me believe in it, and we can debate on it ad nauseum, but I stand by it.

That's not a very tolerant belief at all. Why do you have to force your religion upon others? Things like this & the jizyah minority mafia tax are forcing Islamic beliefs onto people that don't believe in Islam.

I am not asking you to follow the belief. It is part of Islamic law. A Muslim must abide by the law, just as you abide by the laws of the land you live in.

The point is that they're not Muslims and therefore why should Islamic law be forced upon them? Islamic law how you're describing is extremely intolerant.

 

[rufruf44]

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: rufruf44
In the same realm with the question above, whats the penalty for those ex-moslem who abandoned Islam? IIRC, the Hadith has some serious repercussion toward them (killing them if not mistaken).

Yes, the punishment for Riddah, apostasy is death. A more comprehensive answer is given below from Islamiccity.com

Riddah is apostasy, and by definition, it is the PUBLIC act of leaving one's religion to another belief system (which can be atheism). By the way, "public" includes telling any person of the act and doesn't have to be in a press conference to be public. Therefore, regardless if someone leaves Islam and only tells one other person or a group of people about the act, the judgment for that person would be the same. He/she would have done something damaging to Islam by expressing that he was once a Muslim and no longer believes that the Divine Law is the correct Law. As to the issue of how to apply the judgment on an apostate, the killing is not applied immediately. In an Islamic State, the judge makes the judgment to his discretion, and he may ask the apostate to rethink his decision and to repent; the judge also gives him a period of time after which the final judgment is applied. Thank you for asking and God knows best.

I am sure you will disagree with the law, but it is an Islamic law, Muslims, including me believe in it, and we can debate on it ad nauseum, but I stand by it.

That's not a very tolerant belief at all. Why do you have to force your religion upon others? Things like this & the jizyah minority mafia tax are forcing Islamic beliefs onto people that don't believe in Islam.

I am not asking you to follow the belief. It is part of Islamic law. A Muslim must abide by the law, just as you abide by the laws of the land you live in.

But if a moslem lived in where Syariah isn't the so-called law of the land. It is ok for said moslem not to follow it then? In other word, for a moslem the law of the land took precedence over the Syariah ?

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
The point is that they're not Muslims and therefore why should Islamic law be forced upon them? Islamic law how you're describing is extremely intolerant.

I am sorry to disagree. They are Muslims before they choose to apostasize. When they commit the crime of apostasy, they are punished. You are a normal civilian before you commit a crime. When you do commit a crime, you are punished.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
The point is that they're not Muslims and therefore why should Islamic law be forced upon them? Islamic law how you're describing is extremely intolerant.

I am sorry to disagree. They are Muslims before they choose to apostasize. When they commit the crime of apostasy, they are punished. You are a normal civilian before you commit a crime. When you do commit a crime, you are punished.

I disagree. When they apostasize, they instantly at that moment are no longer Muslims, so Islamic law shouldn't apply to them. Maybe if you could scan their brainwaves or had a time machine to look into the future to see if they were going to apostasize you could punish them. Maybe they weren't even Muslims to begin with, but were born to a Muslim family and just followed along.

Also, jizyah shouldn't apply to non-Muslims because they are not followers of Islam.

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
The point is that they're not Muslims and therefore why should Islamic law be forced upon them? Islamic law how you're describing is extremely intolerant.

I am sorry to disagree. They are Muslims before they choose to apostasize. When they commit the crime of apostasy, they are punished. You are a normal civilian before you commit a crime. When you do commit a crime, you are punished.

I disagree. When they apostasize, they instantly at that moment are no longer Muslims, so Islamic law shouldn't apply to them. Maybe if you could scan their brainwaves or had a time machine to look into the future to see if they were going to apostasize you could punish them. Maybe they weren't even Muslims to begin with, but were born to a Muslim family and just followed along.

Also, jizyah shouldn't apply to non-Muslims because they are not followers of Islam.

By your logic, a murderer should not be punished because when he murders someone, the law of the land is no longer applicable to him. Maybe if you could scan his/her brainwaves or had a time machine to look into the future to see if he/she was going to commit murder, you could punish them. Maybe they werent civilians to begin with, they were murderers all along.

A Muslim who apostasizes goes against the Islamic law and he is aware of the consequences. His punishment will be handed out by an Islamic judge. If he so steadfastly believes in his converted religion, he should not fear death, if the punishment is death. Islamic law is not mandated for an individual, it is for the entire country/nation so saying the law does not apply to him is without any basis.

Also, non-Muslims who live in Muslim land under Islamic Law agree to abide by the law of the land, just as I abide by the laws of the United States. Are you saying I should not abide by the US Laws because I am a Muslim?

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
The point is that they're not Muslims and therefore why should Islamic law be forced upon them? Islamic law how you're describing is extremely intolerant.

I am sorry to disagree. They are Muslims before they choose to apostasize. When they commit the crime of apostasy, they are punished. You are a normal civilian before you commit a crime. When you do commit a crime, you are punished.

I disagree. When they apostasize, they instantly at that moment are no longer Muslims, so Islamic law shouldn't apply to them. Maybe if you could scan their brainwaves or had a time machine to look into the future to see if they were going to apostasize you could punish them. Maybe they weren't even Muslims to begin with, but were born to a Muslim family and just followed along.

Also, jizyah shouldn't apply to non-Muslims because they are not followers of Islam.

By your logic, a murderer should not be punished because when he murders someone, the law of the land is no longer applicable to him. Maybe if you could scan his/her brainwaves or had a time machine to look into the future to see if he/she was going to commit murder, you could punish them. Maybe they werent civilians to begin with, they were murderers all along.

No. The law is still applicable to him because he is still a resident of the country. When you convert from Islam, you are no longer a Muslim, so why should Islam's beliefs be applicable to him?

A Muslim who apostasizes goes against the Islamic law and he is aware of the consequences. His punishment will be handed out by an Islamic judge. If he so steadfastly believes in his converted religion, he should not fear death, if the punishment is death. Islamic law is not mandated for an individual, it is for the entire country/nation so saying the law does not apply to him is without any basis.

You are no longer a Muslim when you apostasize, so why should Islamic law be considered for a non-Muslim?

Also, non-Muslims who live in Muslim land under Islamic Law agree to abide by the law of the land, just as I abide by the laws of the United States. Are you saying I should not abide by the US Laws because I am a Muslim?

Sure, people should abide by the law even if they live in an Islamic law country. However, many of those laws are barbaric and oppressive when someone takes everything so literally. I think you can probably compare such a state to apartheid South Africa.

 

[Sultan]

No. The law is still applicable to him because he is still a resident of the country. When you convert from Islam, you are no longer a Muslim, so why should Islam's beliefs be applicable to him?

The law is still applicable to him because he is still a resident of the country. In an Islamic state, the law of the land is Islamic law. Therefore the crime is punished as dictated by Islamic law.

You are no longer a Muslim when you apostasize, so why should Islamic law be considered for a non-Muslim?

Because he is a resident of an Islamic country where the law is Islamic law.

Sure, people should abide by the law even if they live in an Islamic law country. However, many of those laws are barbaric and oppressive when someone takes everything so literally. I think you can probably compare such a state to apartheid South Africa.

I dont think the laws are barbaric and oppressive. You can have your own opinion. I dont agree with your comparison either.

The end to this argument would be my question:

Are you saying I should not abide by the US Laws because I am a Muslim? I have different beliefs than American beliefs. Does that mean I do not have to follow American beliefs?

Please answer my question. I answered yours.