The Crumbling Pillars of American Racial Orthodoxy

[Amused]

<< you guys are taking this too far... mods just lock this thread its not going anywhere and is getting stupider and more similar by the minute...
this thread turned into bullsh!t with the same couple of people just restating the same garbage and flaming each other...


fools >>



Who have I flamed? Please, if this thread offends you, don't click on it. But don't come in here thread-crapping calling other people fools, when it is you who is doing the crapping.

Classy and myself are having an extremely civil conversation about race. Given the circumstances of today's political climate, I'd say that's a rarity.

I may disagree with Classy, but I respect him, as I suspect most of the members of this board do. I am not flaming him, and I have yet to see him flame me.

 

[67gt500]

Classy you have just broken about half a dozen laws of statistical analysis. You are turning this thread into a circus.

Core analysis here is ALWAYS done by putting numbers into perspective.

Allow me to recite my third grade example of statistical analysis.

1000 woman
100 men

of the 1000 women, 300 can't read.

of the 100 men, 70 can't read.


Now your logic would imply that women having a higher likelihood of being illiterate because MORE women are illiterate than men... When in reality, 70% of men are illiterate and 30% of women are illiterate, in this given situation.



This is basic statistical analysis here classy.. it isn't very difficult. What you are doing with numbers defies the laws of mathematics, statistical analysis and common sense. There isn't a point in debating with you when you are going to be this way.

 

[Moonbeam]

We are all the same.

Because we are all the same we are all mirrors.

That should answer any questions as to why we don't get along.

I'm you? BARF!

 

[classy]

Ok I see now. Now that we see the numbers for whites which are terrible, we now turn to percentages. Well if percentages are where you to go to how do you explain that whites commit almost as many hate crimes than all other races combined. And there is no question that there are more minorities in America than whites. It is your way of side stepping the issue. This thread is about done. But I think we can readily see that whites are just as ignorant and crime ridden as anyone else on this strip of dirt we call America.

 

[Amused]

<< Ok I see now. Now that we see the numbers for whites which are terrible, we now turn to percentages.
Well if percentages are where you to go to how do you explain that whites commit almost as many hate crimes than all other races combined. And there is no question that there are more minorities in America than whites. It is your way of side stepping the issue. This thread is about done. But I think we can readily see that whites are just as ignorant and crime ridden as anyone else on this strip of dirt we call America. >>



More minorities than whites? Huh???

No, Classy. You have side stepped the issue over and over again. The issue here is: Why has the black community, by and large, failed to succeed in the US while nearly every other racial minority has? The issue here is: Why is a black person, on average, more than 8 times more likely to commit murder than whites? (2.5 vs 16.8 per 100,000)

You can try to spin the numbers all you want, deny factual statistics, and throw in something so absurdly subjective as hate crimes, but you cannot deny those two facts about the present state of the black community, no matter how hard you try.

Classy, by pointing these things out, I'm only trying to start with reality, and work from there. If the black community wont even accept the reality that their community is killing itself, and others at such an alraming rate, how will they ever help themselves?

 

[Doboji]

This whole argument is Post Hoc ergo propter hoc...

Everyone is saying... We have found that Black people in this country are far more likely to commit crime than White people. This must be in some way due to Black culture or Black people as a race.

This is a trash argument...

The truth....

We have found that Black people in this country are far more likely to commit crimes than white people. Black people make up an overwhelming share (historically and presently) of the poverty population. Crime is far more prevelent within poverty populations than any other populations. Therefore the trend in black crime is an indication of Black poverty.

And unfortunately the FBI has no statistics of crimes according to income level...

-Max

 

[Capn]

&quot;And there is no question that there are more minorities in America than whites. &quot;

What the hell? Where do you live?

According to a 1997 Census report (here)
year 2000 population projections:
71.8% White
12.9% Black
0.9% American Indian
4.1% Asian or Pacific Islander
11.4% Hispanic

 

[Amused]

<< This whole argument is Post Hoc ergo propter hoc...

Everyone is saying... We have found that Black people in this country are far more likely to commit crime than White people. This must be in some way due to Black culture or Black people as a race.

This is a trash argument...

The truth....

We have found that Black people in this country are far more likely to commit crimes than white people. Black people make up an overwhelming share (historically and presently) of the poverty population. Crime is far more prevelent within poverty populations than any other populations. Therefore the trend in black crime is an indication of Black poverty.

And unfortunately the FBI has no statistics of crimes according to income level...

-Max >>



Yes, I have no doubt that poverty plays a part in it. I've never denied that. But to have an incidence of murder 8 times that of all whites, including poor whites and Hispanics, leads one to realize that poverty alone is not the whole answer.

Max, I'll ask you this question: If cigarette ads lead people to smoke, and hate propaganda lead people to hate, what does a popular culture heavily steeped in violence, gang banging, misogyny lead people to do? What does a culture that makes excuses for violence and crime rather than condemn it lead people to do?

 

[AaronP]

I think that black and white newborns have the same IQ in general. However, the victim mentality that is taught to blacks during their youth, the lack of emphasis that is put on getting good grades and a good education (for a lot of blacks, but certainly not all), and the general culture that they are raised in conditions them to underacheive, this cycle is repeated over and over from generation to generation. Programs like affirmative action do nothing but make this problem worse.

There is a black guy who is a professor at either Stanford or Berkely, that has a very strong arguement to this affect (or is it effect) that is very convincing, but I forget the name of his book.

I firmly believe that whites have no innate mental superiority over blacks, however, I think that whites are raised in a way, and their culture is better able to help them succeed in our soceity. Now, remember this is ON THE WHOLE. There are certainly some black parents that are EXCELLENT, and there are definitely a lot of white parents who are duds. You see, in the old days, I wouldn't have to put that qualifier that this is &quot;on the whole&quot; it would just be assumed, but nowadays, you gotta cover your ass so that the bleeding heart, acquisational PC liberals don't jump down your throat.

EDIT I just looked at that Rushford IQ table, and perhaps I am wrong! Maybe there is a biological component there as well as enviromental. Ohh well, ya learn something new every day, I would like to see more studies in this area if anyone has any links or anything. Perhaps the cold hard truth is that on the whole, blacks have lower intelligence than whites and the reason is at least partly genetic. Of course if this is true, you will NEVER hear anyone in the media say it. And of course, there are many exceptions to the rule, a lot of smart brotha's out there.

 

[Doboji]

<< violence, gang banging, misogyny lead people to do? >>



Are you aware that the greatest consumers of the above culture are White kids and not black kids?

The above culture... IS NOT BLACK CULTURE!... it is no more an influence on Black kids then groups like mettalica or skin head music influences White kids...

This is the mistake we're making... we're looking at a culture that is broadcasted all throughout the media and accepting it as gospel... as if this was what black culture is all about... and it simply isn't so.

-Max

 

[Doboji]

here's a great opinion piece that expresses my thoughts on this subject quite well...

Link

 

[Amused]

<<

<< violence, gang banging, misogyny lead people to do? >>



Are you aware that the greatest consumers of the above culture are White kids and not black kids?

The above culture... IS NOT BLACK CULTURE!... it is no more an influence on Black kids then groups like mettalica or skin head music influences White kids...

This is the mistake we're making... we're looking at a culture that is broadcasted all throughout the media and accepting it as gospel... as if this was what black culture is all about... and it simply isn't so.

-Max >>



Oh BS. Sure, some white kids listen to gangter rap and hip-hop, but the vast majority do not. Sure, there is some watered down hip-hop out there that is popular among white kids, but it is no where near as prevalent, or a &quot;lifestyle&quot; as it is among black youth.

Gangster rap IS a part of black culture, Dob. You can try to deny it all you want, or make excuses for it. But any thinking person is not going to buy that BS.

 

[Doboji]

I'll do some research and dig up you some statistics on Gangsta Rap consumption...

But ignoring that for now.... what about the fact that despite the enourmous growth of the Gangsta Rap industry throughout the late 90s and into the new millenium, violent crime is dropping most rapidly in the black community? Apparantly the &quot;culture&quot; isn't as inluential as we thought?...

In order to really examine this issue fairly we have to examine the trends and ALL the variables involved...

And I also want to argue further and state that Gangbanging is not as big a part of Black culture as you think... I myself grew up in the Black culture of Washington DC... and Black culture consisted of as much positive influences as negatives. Go-go was certainly more popular where I grew up than Snoop... Religion was huge... The Black community has a very very devout christian population.... There is so much more in need of understanding in regard to Black culture than what we've discussed thus far.

-Max

 

[Amused]

<< here's a great opinion piece that expresses my thoughts on this subject quite well...

Link >>



Well, that was pretty shallow and silly.

The number one reason for the drop in crime rates is nearly universally attributed to the increase in the average age of the US citizen. There are fewer younger folks in relation to older folks. It is well documented that people between the ages of 18 and 30 are many times more likely to commit a crime than a person over 30. Fewer people 18-30 and more people 30 and older is going to lead to lower crime rates.

To jump to the conclusion that because movies and music became more violent and this somehow caused people to become less violent is so remarkably stupid, I'm having trouble even justifying my responding to it.

It's about as stupid as the Christian Right's assertion that the end of prayer in school is the reason for the rise in crime during the 60s, 70s, and 80s.

Here's a hint: Correlation does not prove causation.

Yet I bet this same guy, if asked if ads for cigarettes or hate websites influence people, he'd agree whole heartily to that. The hypocrisy among guys like this is so astounding, I'm having trouble even expressing my feelings on it.

 

[Amused]

<< I'll do some research and dig up you some statistics on Gangsta Rap consumption...

But ignoring that for now.... what about the fact that despite the enourmous growth of the Gangsta Rap industry throughout the late 90s and into the new millenium, violent crime is dropping most rapidly in the black community? Apparantly the &quot;culture&quot; isn't as inluential as we thought?...

In order to really examine this issue fairly we have to examine the trends and ALL the variables involved...

And I also want to argue further and state that Gangbanging is not as big a part of Black culture as you think... I myself grew up in the Black culture of Washington DC... and Black culture consisted of as much positive influences as negatives. Go-go was certainly more popular where I grew up than Snoop... Religion was huge... The Black community has a very very devout christian population.... There is so much more in need of understanding in regard to Black culture than what we've discussed thus far.

-Max >>



Max, I understand there is a large religious element in the black community. I'm not saying ALL of black culture is the problem. I'm only saying the elements that promote violence, makes excuses for or even condones a 70% illegitimacy rate, makes excuses for violence and crime, and blames everyone else for their community's ills is the problem here.

One case very close to home was Jesse Jackson in Decatur, Illinois excusing the actions of a number of violent thugs who were beating up people at a football game, and demanding they be returned to school after expulsion (not to mention the lies they tried to pass off in the process).

 

[StormRider]

Group hug everyone!

 

[67gt500]

Ok I see now. Now that we see the numbers for whites which are terrible, we now turn to percentages. Well if percentages are where you to go to how do you explain that whites commit almost as many hate crimes than all other races combined. And there is no question that there are more minorities in America than whites. It is your way of side stepping the issue. This thread is about done. But I think we can readily see that whites are just as ignorant and crime ridden as anyone else on this strip of dirt we call America.


It's the other way around Classy. You know you are wrong so find some statistics and begin defying the laws of statistical analysis.

You aren't looking for answers.. your opinions are set in stone. You want to know what I think of hate crimes? I find all crimes, crimes of hate.

Your moronic attempt to turn the criminal divide on its head with the term 'hate crimes' is above and beyond any rational response. What you've done with the legitimate numbers and statistics presented is appalling.

And you know what else classy? Living in hatred will get you knowhere. Calling America a strip of dirt or constantly being ridiculous to prove some twisted point you may have gets you absolutely nowhere in life.

If you want to hate America, fine. If you want to hate white people, fine. If you want to ignore statistics when talking about analyzing numbers, fine. If you want to redefine criminal terminology to suit your cause, fine.

The great thing about this 'strip of dirt' is that it allows people like yourself to express your opinions freely, openly, and without governmental persecution. And this cannot be said for countries like China which you so openly admire. Over there they just forget the trials and drive you over with tanks.

 

[Doboji]

67Troll.... you better speed up... your trolls per day is down to 44...

-Max

 

[67gt500]

Doboji,


We have found that Black people in this country are far more likely to commit crimes than white people. Black people make up an overwhelming share (historically and presently) of the poverty population. Crime is far more prevelent within poverty populations than any other populations. Therefore the trend in black crime is an indication of Black poverty.


How far do you take it? Is this the new explanation for the fact that 70% of black children are born out of wedlock? The fact that 60% of black 4th graders cannot read?

Poverty? If this is the case then why does it not effect all black children? Why are some capable of making something out of themselves while others living in the same economic socio status cannot?

It comes down to family values, and having a family for that matter. Having parents that care about you, that would rather read to you than snort it up. You can blame surface issues like economic status all day long. The fact of the matter is that every single day people living in these economically deprived circumstances make something positive out of their lives.

The solution in my view is school choice. Let the parents that do care about their children send them to a better public school when the one they are currently in does not meet standards.

We can't legislate morality.. what you failed to mention is the drug addiction rate in these poverty stricken areas. This is in my view a leading cause of poverty in this country.

 

[67gt500]

67Troll.... you better speed up... your trolls per day is down to 44...

That isn't my name. I would appreciate it if you would grow up and stop ridiculing me for my beliefs.

 

[Moonbeam]

Don't all grow up at once. The thread will explode.

 

[Viper GTS]

Classy, I'm going to try to make this as simple as possible.

Let's use rough figures of 70% &amp; 15% to represent the portions of the US that are white/black. That gives you a few people, &amp; takes away a few from me. Sound fair? OK. Now let's take this out of 100 people. Therefore we have 70 whites, &amp; 15 blacks. We'll use the numbers you posted to as the total number of crimes committed by the respective groups.

Murder or manslaughter: Whites 10 Blacks 5

Whites: 10/70 = 1 out of 7 whites commited murder or manslaughter
Blacks: 5/15 = 1 out of 3 blacks committed murder or manslaughter

Rape: Whites 3 Blacks 2

Whites: 3/70 = 4.3% of the white population committed rape
Blacks: 2/15 = 13.3% of the black population committed rape

Aggravated assault: Whites 776 Blacks 212

These numbers are bigger than our population size, so we'll divide both numbers by 100. Now it's 7.76/2.12.

7.76/70 = 11.1% of the white population committed aggravated assault
2.12/15 = 14.1% of the black population committed aggravated assault.

Simple assault: Whites 1,110 Blacks 361

Again, we have to adjust the numbers. We'll divide by 100 again. 11.1/3.61.

11.1/70 = 15.9% of the white population committed simple assault.
3.61/15 = 24.0% of the black population committed simple assault.

Do you see the trend here?

Now if we do your little breakdown:

Blacks are more than twice as likely as whites to commit murder.
Blacks are three times as likely as whites to commit rape.
Although closer, blacks are more likely than whites to commit aggravated assault.
Blacks are 1.5 times as likely as whites to commit simple assault.

If you'd like, I can do all of them for you. Keep in mind these are your numbers, &amp; census figures. Hard to argue, if you ask me.

Viper GTS

 

[Maetryx]

Viper GTS, good work and thank you. I'd like to add that the numbers provided by classy are not numbers of crimes committed in the US, but the number of reported interracial &quot;hate crimes&quot;. Of course, the number of crimes that are considered &quot;hate crimes&quot; are nearly statistically insignificant compared to &quot;regular crimes&quot;.

For example, in the numbers classy provided, there were 11 &quot;hate arsons&quot; committed by white people and 0 &quot;hate arsons&quot; committed by black people. He then claimed that white people committed ARSON at 11 times the rate that blacks committed ARSON. Two problems with that statement: 1) 11 is not a multiple of 0; and 2) these are not the numbers for ARSON but for &quot;hate arson&quot;.

Similar problems exist throughout his numbers and statements concerning his numbers. I just wanted readers to be clear that classy's number, taken from an FBI report, are not crime incidences but &quot;hate crime&quot; incidences. A study of crime and interracial crime (not limited to &quot;hate crimes&quot is far less subjective and a better indicator of differential crime rates amongst the races.

Also, a look at classy's numbers reveals a disproportionate number of black perpetrated hate crimes in the violent offenses like assault, robbery and murder. Whites are more likely than blacks to be perpetrators of non-violent &quot;hate crimes&quot; like intimidation and vandalism.

 

[classy]

Yea good work. Good to see the calvary of whites hanging together and sticking together. The fact is no matter of the size of the race, the fact is whites are more apt to racial violence and prejudice. Period. You can spin it all you want. But the numbers are clear. Whites as race are more violent than all other races combined. Its amazing how whites can't accept the fact they are the most racist group on the planet. Most genocides in world history were committed by whites. Most serial killers and mass murderers are whites. Who commits the most racial bias in the work place? None other than whites. Most suicidal and leaders in mass suicide? Whites. and What makes it so bad we got to wait 30-40 years for some of them to bought to justice for their racial crimes. You breed filth like Ted Bundy and Timothy McVeigh and you guys have the audacity to make it seem like some other race is worse. Mutts like Stalin and Hitler are in your stinking lineage and you people parade around like you got something to proud of. Please. When it comes to racial hatred Whites not only take the cake, but eat it, and even are the ones who baked it. Now stick that in your percentage pipes and smoke it. I don't mean to downgrade all whites because everyone should be judged as an individual. But there is no stinking way in hell you can put a spin on white racial bias in this country and in the history of the world.

 

[Capn]

hehe, this is a comedy. Does anyone take this joker seriously?