The Crumbling Pillars of American Racial Orthodoxy

[classy]

And another thing lets not forget the 6 million or so your pappys dropped at the bottom of the F'IN Ocean when they were carting my people the hell over here either. Now I'm hot, time to go beddy bye! :|

 

[classy]

<< hehe, this is a comedy. Does anyone take this joker seriously? >>



Yeah real funny, I got your comedy!

 

[AaronP]

my &quot;pappies&quot; were Norwegian immigrant farmers in the 1880's, what did they do to your people again?

 

[Capn]

Huh?

 

[Amused]

<< Yea good work. Good to see the calvary of whites hanging together and sticking together. The fact is no matter of the size of the race, the fact is whites are more apt to racial violence and prejudice. Period. You can spin it all you want. But the numbers are clear. Whites as race are more violent than all other races combined. Its amazing how whites can't accept the fact they are the most racist group on the planet. Most genocides in world history were committed by whites. Most serial killers and mass murderers are whites. Who commits the most racial bias in the work place? None other than whites. Most suicidal and leaders in mass suicide? Whites. and What makes it so bad we got to wait 30-40 years for some of them to bought to justice for their racial crimes. You breed filth like Ted Bundy and Timothy McVeigh and you guys have the audacity to make it seem like some other race is worse. Mutts like Stalin and Hitler are in your stinking lineage and you people parade around like you got something to proud of. Please. When it comes to racial hatred Whites not only take the cake, but eat it, and even are the ones who baked it. Now stick that in your percentage pipes and smoke it. I don't mean to downgrade all whites because everyone should be judged as an individual. But there is no stinking way in hell you can put a spin on white racial bias in this country and in the history of the world. >>



Oh yeah. And Africa -- both historically and presently -- is such a peaceful place with no dictators, genocide and mass murder? I guess Rwanda was a debutante ball, huh?

Every race has had it's genocides and madmen, Classy.

Classy, all I have been attempting to do is see if you can admit the black community has serious problems that racism alone cannot explain. It has been my experience in life that if a person or people cannot see or admit it's own problems, they can never help themselves... and if a person or people cannot help themselves, no one else can either.

*I* am not ganging up on you, nor am I motivated by racism. On the contrary, I'm genuinely concerned for the black community and only seek to help in any way I can to make it stronger, more self reliant, and productive. It genuinely hurts me to see blacks killing each other at such an alarming rate. What potential is being wasted every time this happens???

In short, Classy, stop being so defensive. I'm not out to get you, or any other black person.

 

[67gt500]

Yea good work. Good to see the calvary of whites hanging together and sticking together.

You're jumping to concusions there aren't you? There are at least three people here questioning your irrational statistical analysis.. and we're all right. Viper was even nice enough to take my third grade example above and beyond and show you how to apply it to the numbers we all are privy to.


The fact is no matter of the size of the race, the fact is whites are more apt to racial violence and prejudice. Period. You can spin it all you want. But the numbers are clear. Whites as race are more violent than all other races combined.

This is just 110% wrong. Proportionality is something you are obviously incapable of understanding. There are more whites than blacks. Quite a few more.. it would only be logical that more whites committed crimes than blacks. But when the numbers are put in context and compared to class population an entirely different scenario is revealed. And I'm starting to sound like a broken record here because I've told you this at least four times now.

Its amazing how whites can't accept the fact they are the most racist group on the planet.

Look who the racist is now. Keep it coming classy. Who are these 'whites' that you are referring to? I'm white, I'm also a quarter italian and a quarter german. My family is white and is a mix of a variety of nationalities. Jews are white, the french are white, canadians are white, australians are white. Which are you referring to classy??? Or just whites in general?

Most genocides in world history were committed by whites.

This is just wrong. Africa, Asia, genocides for hundreds of years which continue today.

Most serial killers and mass murderers are whites.

how does this tie into racism?

Who commits the most racial bias in the work place? None other than whites. Most suicidal and leaders in mass suicide? Whites. and What makes it so bad we got to wait 30-40 years for some of them to bought to justice for their racial crimes. You breed filth like Ted Bundy and Timothy McVeigh and you guys have the audacity to make it seem like some other race is worse. Mutts like Stalin and Hitler are in your stinking lineage and you people parade around like you got something to proud of. Please. When it comes to racial hatred Whites not only take the cake, but eat it, and even are the ones who baked it. Now stick that in your percentage pipes and smoke it. I don't mean to downgrade all whites because everyone should be judged as an individual. But there is no stinking way in hell you can put a spin on white racial bias in this country and in the history of the world.

The rest of this is just not right.. and not fair. I'm offended.

 

[Moonbeam]

<< In short, Classy, stop being so defensive. I'm not out to get you, or any other black person. >>



Good advise Classy. Amused loves you and knows what's best for you. Drop your defenses and surrender to him. He'll make a great nanny.

Ah me, that was just a little dig at Amused telling him how much he reminds me of myself.

Seriously, the problem I see with your prescription, Amused, is the business of how to drop your defenses. You should ask yourself if you can do that before you ask it of somebody else. My suspicion, is that white people don't know what it's like to be black, generally speaking. I'm white so I can't know this for sure. It's just what I suspect, OK. So anyway, I suspect that racism is a daily experience, a frustrating and engaging experience from which there is no escape. Like all traumatic experiences, individuals react differently. Some walk out of it with fierce determination it won't get in their way. Some drown their sorrow in drugs. The point is that it affects people and generally not for the better. We have all been made to feel worthless, some more than others. When you add racism on top of that it creates extra pressure on self esteem. We are all wearing armor as a result. When you ask somebody to not be defensive, you're really asking them to drop the thing that saved them from destruction, the scaberous callus on their wound. You don't want to do that unless you can provide a rubber room and are prepared to deal with the volcananic eruption of a lifetime of supressed rage. And you will want to be doing your own work too so you don't wind up with a situation like So Africa where Mandella was lightyears ahead of most everybody else and had so few who could follow.

Classy is saying something in my opinion. He is screaming something in your face even. Why argue his numbers and dick around with ratios. This is all about feelings. Try hearing his and your own for a change. I say it's ok to be bitter, to be hurt, to be frustrated beyond belief as a black person. I say it's ok that some of you want to stuff it back down his throat for implicating you. We are all the same, but we have all had different experiences. Until we release some of the hidden pain we carry, we will always be at war. To do so we will need to learn to feel. To do that we will have to understand the nature and how deadly an enemy the armor that once saved us has become.

 

[Amused]

<<

<< In short, Classy, stop being so defensive. I'm not out to get you, or any other black person. >>



Good advise Classy. Amused loves you and knows what's best for you. Drop your defenses and surrender to him. He'll make a great nanny.

Ah me, that was just a little dig at Amused telling him how much he reminds me of myself.

Seriously, the problem I see with your prescription, Amused, is the business of how to drop your defenses. You should ask yourself if you can do that before you ask it of somebody else. My suspicion, is that white people don't know what it's like to be black, generally speaking. I'm white so I can't know this for sure. It's just what I suspect, OK. So anyway, I suspect that racism is a daily experience, a frustrating and engaging experience from which there is no escape. Like all traumatic experiences, individuals react differently. Some walk out of it with fierce determination it won't get in their way. Some drown their sorrow in drugs. The point is that it affects people and generally not for the better. We have all been made to feel worthless, some more than others. When you add racism on top of that it creates extra pressure on self esteem. We are all wearing armor as a result. When you ask somebody to not be defensive, you're really asking them to drop the thing that saved them from destruction, the scaberous callus on their wound. You don't want to do that unless you can provide a rubber room and are prepared to deal with the volcananic eruption of a lifetime of supressed rage. And you will want to be doing your own work too so you don't wind up with a situation like So Africa where Mandella was lightyears ahead of most everybody else and had so few who could follow.

Classy is saying something in my opinion. He is screaming something in your face even. Why argue his numbers and dick around with ratios. This is all about feelings. Try hearing his and your own for a change. I say it's ok to be bitter, to be hurt, to be frustrated beyond belief as a black person. I say it's ok that some of you want to stuff it back down his throat for implicating you. We are all the same, but we have all had different experiences. Until we release some of the hidden pain we carry, we will always be at war. To do so we will need to learn to feel. To do that we will have to understand the nature and how deadly an enemy the armor that once saved us has become. >>



Moonie, I am understanding his feelings. I understand why he's defensive, but at the same time, this very defensiveness, projection and denial is destroying the black community and only perpetuating racism, not solving it. Hatred only eats up those who hate, be they black or white. And denial only serves to perpetuate the problem.

If you followed the Jesse Jackson/Decatur, IL fiasco, you'd understand what I'm trying to say in this thread.

Oh, BTW, Moonie, I'm not advocating legislating anything, or seeking to take anyone's freedoms away. There is a vast difference between you and me.

 

[Moonbeam]

Amused, you are seeking to solve this problem on the level of intellect and reason and by so doing you imprison, chain, shackle, and lock the posibility of solution beyond the realm of discussion. Yours is a prison of wish, of hope, of certainty in your own theory. You talk of reason in an insane assylum. You are right, but you will prove ineffectual. You cannot drop your own defenses so you cannot even save yourself. We are all the same. To know yourself is to know everything. Be a &quot;miner for a heart of gold&quot;

 

[67gt500]

moon,

ugh. classy is certainly screaming something. The problem is that I cannot be certain if it is a rational scream or an irrational scream. He is attempting to prove his point with fallacious spin on real data.

I wouldn't be as willing to object if he would just come out and say that his argument was entirely emotional and based on personal experience. The problem is that he hasn't done that.

 

[Maetryx]

Maetryx here,

I'll share my feelings since Moonbeam inquired.

I feel happy because after starting this thread with my thoughts on racial McCarthysim, we got past it and actually had a discussion about some race issues in our country. And we did it without getting so out of control that we lost the thread to a lock or a delete. Congratulations to all of us. We pushed the envelope for sure, but we survived.

I feel better informed on the black opinion of race problems, because I feel that classy probably represents the black opinion reasonably well. Certainly Jared Taylor indicates in his writings that black opinion is in line with classy's opinions. Now I know that Mr. Taylor's writings are verified by some members of the black community. So now I feel better informed.

I feel that classy is right when he claims that the white cavalry closed ranks when he blasted the whites in this forum. He's right, and it was right that we did so and it is right that I feel proud. Because when a group comes under attack it is natural that they should protect their own and come together. This is not an astonishing development or some kind of evil conspiracy. The evil conspiracy (if there are such things) is that whites have felt prohibited from protecting themselves against wave after wave of racist accusations with no supporting evidence.

So I feel hope that this era of racial McCarthyism will end and that discussions on race issues will no longer consist of 3 or 4 conditioned responses, a narrow band of Orwellian sound bites. I have a great hope that this day will come.

And I feel certain that the truth will prevail, whatever it may be. I care little if the racial divides in this country are genetic, environmental or a mix of the two (which almost has to be the case) as long as we can dismantle the discredited and intellectually bankrupt assumptions that have propelled us down the path to nowhere.

 

[Moonbeam]

67, he hasn't done that because the discussion is held in the prison of reason. It is said that a fool convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. Why? Because our thoughts, opinions, and convictions are a product of experience and emotion that has become lost in the annals of time. We are largely unconscious of how we got to believe the things we do. As the zen master illustrates by trying to fill a full cup of tea, we cannot learn anything new until we empty our cup. To know is to unlearn. We are frozen in time by the rigidity brought on by the inability to access our feelings. Classy isn't the only one who is crazy. We all are.

The real work we need to do is always and only on ourselves.

 

[67gt500]

Moon,

That was lovely to read but it really answers nothing.

We are dealing with concrete statistical data here. Data which reflects poorly on the black community.


It appears to be a common goal here to help the black community. And the only way we can help is if the help is accepted.. and not thrown out and called racism in disguise.

The conservative policies that I value are considered racist or unacceptable by 90% of the black community. They have maintained similar convictions and reliances on democratic liberalism for the last 30 years and it has done very little to bring an overwhelming majority out of the poverish dwellings in society.

It's time for change. It's time to stop it with the 'we are all the same' nannyfests and understand that we are a diverse country with diverse interests.

 

[Amused]

<< Amused, you are seeking to solve this problem on the level of intellect and reason and by so doing you imprison, chain, shackle, and lock the posibility of solution beyond the realm of discussion. Yours is a prison of wish, of hope, of certainty in your own theory. You talk of reason in an insane assylum. You are right, but you will prove ineffectual. You cannot drop your own defenses so you cannot even save yourself. We are all the same. To know yourself is to know everything. Be a &quot;miner for a heart of gold&quot; >>



Good gawd, Moonie. Go back on the lithium, k?

When emotions overrule reason, you end up with chaos and knee-jerk reactionism that causes more harm than good. It is, for this very reason, that our founding fathers did not want and did not create a pure democracy, because the majority, through emotional reactionism, will oppress the minority... in your case, the minority being the individual.

I have no prison, Moonie. Reason has set me free from the prison of reactionism based on ignorance and fear. You should try it sometime.

 

[GrimmX]

Good edit Amused. It's hard to reply to some of Moons stuff.

 

[Moonbeam]

Then have at it 67. I'm saying you're trying to solve a 3 dimensional problem by crawling over the same old two dimensional surface. It's the story of the blind men and the elephant. &quot;Our test indicate that this enamal material tests a 4 on the Moe's scale.&quot; You'll never understand an elephant that way. We have brilliant people all over the place looking to solve these problems for years and years and years. Doesn't anybody ever suspect the answer is some third way? Before a person can see his need to unlearning, he must perhaps come to his wits end. Before it's time for change it's time to recognize the imposibility of change via any known route. Change happens the moment you reexperience the origin of your feelings, in that moment when you can see clearly that you bought a lie.

 

[67gt500]

ok I consider myself moderately intelligent and in reading that all I've obtained is a new sense of confusion.

I'll reread it once I've had some sleep perhaps.

 

[Amused]

<< Then have at it 67. I'm saying you're trying to solve a 3 dimensional problem by crawling over the same old two dimensional surface. It's the story of the blind men and the elephant. &quot;Our test indicate that this enamal material tests a 4 on the Moe's scale.&quot; You'll never understand an elephant that way. We have brilliant people all over the place looking to solve these problems for years and years and years. Doesn't anybody ever suspect the answer is some third way? Before a person can see his need to unlearning, he must perhaps come to his wits end. Before it's time for change it's time to recognize the imposibility of change via any known route. Change happens the moment you reexperience the origin of your feelings, in that moment when you can see clearly that you bought a lie. >>



Oh yeah! Moonie &quot;feels&quot; that you've &quot;bought a lie,&quot; so it must be true.

:::sigh::: after all the touchy feely nonsense, I feel like I need a shower.

 

[Moonbeam]

<< I have no prison, Moonie. Reason has set me free from the prison of reactionism based on ignornace and fear. You should try it sometime. >>



Been there and done that. Empty an a husk. I discovered only that thought is fear and that fear itself is only the total supression of feeling. I discovered that reactionsism is the activation of our armor the purpose of which is to keep us ignorant of what we feel. What do we feel? Why our worst nightmare, of course. Now what is better, to hold madness at bay or to go completely relive the dream. When the nightmare becomes totally real we come fully alive. Give me that madness of life. &quot;In the sea there are riches beyond compare, but if you seek safety it is on the shore.&quot;

By the way the above is obviously the height of reason. Not reason sui generous, but the reason of experience. Try it some time.

And now for a long walk in the dark where the fairies and elves play and wisper in my ear.

 

[Phokus]

<< ok I consider myself moderately intelligent and in reading that all I've obtained is a new sense of confusion. >>



Thats absurd, i consider you quite unintelligent.



<< I'll reread it once I've had some sleep perhaps. >>



And thats quite sad. You need to get out more.

 

[etech]

There are two viable possibilities.

1) The races are different and must be treated as such. In that case programs such as affirmative action are justified and society must change, adapt and make allowances for the differences of the races.

2) The races are absolutely equal and will be treated as such under the law. The law must ensure that each person has an equal opportunity but does not consider any other bias.


I am in favor and believer of the second.

The middle ground has been tried and has not worked. While saying the different groups are equal there has been special preferences based on actions done in the past. That I believe has contributed to the problem and has not helped solve it.

The problem I have with this discussion is that it is all looking backwards. To solve a problem you see where you are, learn from what has been tried before and then add it all together to make a plan for the future. Look forwards.

phokus, if all you have to add to this discussion is insults perhaps you would do better to not hit the reply button.

 

[Doboji]

Noone disputes that Affirmative action is a sloppy approach to solving the disparity between the white and black communitees. However it does work to some degree.

Lets face facts here... first off.. there is definite economic and thereby educational disparity between the black communitee and the white communitee.

secondly... this disparity is to a large degree the result of historic discrimination.

Accepting the above two points leads to the need for something to be done in order to equalize, desegregate, and repair damage done from the past.

On what grounds are we arguing against affirmative action?... the grounds that it's &quot;not fair&quot;?... these grounds I absolutely dismiss, as regardless of what we do the situation that exists is going to be unfair to SOMEONE... affirmative action allows unfairness to be distributed in such a manner as to avoid more of it in the future.

On the grounds of unqualified workers getting a jobs requiring important skills. This I admit makes me twinge too... it is this subject which I am willing and anxious to debate about... I'd love to see some statistics as to qualifications of those people placed by affirmative action.... if anyone has any I'd be grateful... if not I'll do some research myself today.... and see what we can find out.

-Max

 

[Rio Rebel]

I thought this thread was going to be an interesting discussion about racial accusations and the social climate in the US. This has turned into something completely different.

I still maintain that the original post made some good points and things that should be considered. Once it broke down into trying to statistically justify a discriminatory perspective, I don't want to be a part of that discussion.

For those of you trying to make classy &quot;understand&quot;, think about what you're saying. How is a black person supposed to respond to the assertion that as a racial group, they are intellectually inferior (and no matter how you rephrase it, that's what you're saying).

I am from Mississippi. At least 3 or 4 times a week, I hear comments or jokes about how ignorant we all are. Statistically, the case could be made. And it may be a logical fallacy to assume that everyone from Mississippi is ignorant, but that is certainly the underlying assumption when the joke is made. No matter how rationally or politely you showed me statistics about ignorance in Mississippi, it would still be offensive and difficult to hear - and the assumption would always be out there that all of us fit that stereotype.

I can imagine this whole thread has been one long frustration for classy. At first, I was very irritated that he couldn't discuss this rationally (because I assumed he was white). As a black man, he has every right to feel offended and frustrated. No matter how much we all sit back and take the &quot;objective&quot; approach, the implications are still there.

That's all I have to say on this one. If the discussion ever comes back up about the comparison between racism charges and McCarthyism, I would find it interesting. This statistical argument about black people and crime is not one I find productive and enjoyable - I'll leave it to you guys.

 

[Doboji]

Rio Rebel...

I totally agree with what you just said... extremely well said!(no wonder you made elite member)

The problem is the thread was flawed from the start... while making good points about the paranoia of racism that indeed exists in this country, the original poster attached a couple of tag alongs that discussed the correlation of black people, white people, and crime.

Here's a couple quotes from the original post.



<< How much longer can we pretend that white racism is responsible for minority failure? >>


What are we saying here about minority failure?



<< How can we say that tests are biased in favor of whites, Jews, Asians, and West Indies blacks, but against blacks and Hispanics? >>


What are we saying here about Black and Hispanic test scores?



<< How much longer can we pretend that racial diversity is a great strength when it flies in the face of all the evidence? >>


So racial diversity is a weakness... we should seek a homogenous society?

Perhaps I'm nitpicking here... but these are the questions presented by the post... and the discussion formed from the overwheling answer from people here....

1. It's the failings of Black culture.
2. Blacks and Hispanics have bad test scores because Black and Hispanic people have bad parenting.
3. Led to discussion on affirmative action etc.

-Max

 

[Amused]

<< For those of you trying to make classy &quot;understand&quot;, think about what you're saying. How is a black person supposed to respond to the assertion that as a racial group, they are intellectually inferior (and no matter how you rephrase it, that's what you're saying).. >>



I cannot speak for others, however this is NOT what I was saying, or pointing out. I do not believe blacks are genetically inferior to any other race. This includes intellectually.

To jump to this conclusion seems to me to be the very racial McCarthyism spoken of in the opening post. One can be of high intellect, and still fall into a cycle of self depreciation and self destruction. The same goes for an entire community.

Had I said the VERY SAME THINGS about Nazis, no one here would make the implication that I thought Germans were genetically inferior.

It PISSES me off that a white person cannot dare criticize a black person, or black culture without being branded with this crap. It's a convenient catch all used to easily dismiss critics. And it wears thinner every passing year.

Well, that's it. I'm out. Up until now, no one, not even Classy, had labeled me as a racist in that I implied blacks were somehow inherently inferior.