The AT World of Warcraft Thread (Where do you play) and general BS

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: Beev
No Gruuls yet. We're stuck in a 10 man rut. It'd be nice if the officers recruited...

I find it's hard for a lot of guilds to get out of that rut. I think only one of the guilds that I'm in is really trying 25 mans, but it seems the 10 man attendance isn't going too well anymore.

Originally posted by: Anubis
2k ouch 🙁 and i thought the 1250 i spent on mine was bad, yea i wouldent drop that much on it, makeing FSW and spellstrike is relativily cheap, its really easy to just farm all the mats and trade CDs, you can normally sell/trade PMC to just buy more of teh cloth you need, i woudl do that first, itll be a much bigger upgrade to you then the trinket, however if you are doing gruuls i would NOT make the FSW shoulders because T4 is better

I think that's how much they are on Alleria as well. Fortunately, I have two Ace of Blessings so buying the cards isn't a huge deal :laugh:. Man, I've had such good luck getting those Aces so far too... I believe I have 1x Ace of Furies, 2x Ace of Blessings and some other Ace that I can't remember as well as some of the numbers cards. I really want to complete the Furies deck for my Paladin. Although if I change him from protection to Holy, I don't think I'd want it 😛. So I might finish the deck and wait to see what I do.

 

[AntiFreze]

Has blizz announced if they are keeping the same structure with WotLK? 5man dungeon, 5man heroics, 10man raid instance, 25man raids isntances, and 40man boss encounters?

 

[imported_nerve]

I left wow a while back after I leveled my rogue from 60-70. I never did instances because I always remembered the 40mans and how it all took 6 hours.. I never had the time for instances.

Id really like to jump in again and do some of the new instances..
How long are the instances generally?

 

[Beev]

Originally posted by: AntiFreze
Has blizz announced if they are keeping the same structure with WotLK? 5man dungeon, 5man heroics, 10man raid instance, 25man raids isntances, and 40man boss encounters?

40 mans ended with classis WoW. BC has none.

I've read that they are going to do a lot more 10 mans this time, but the real progression will be in 25 mans like usual. I'm sure there's going to be a TON of 5 mans again.

 

[Anubis]

5 mans generally go pretty quick but that really depends on the group and if you die alot, most heroics can be cleared in less then 90 min for the longer ones many less then an hour, a full kara clear takes an average guild id say 4 hours, ZA is faster then kara but harder

25 mans are just like 40 mans, they take a while no matter what

 

[Anubis]

Originally posted by: Beev

Originally posted by: AntiFreze
Has blizz announced if they are keeping the same structure with WotLK? 5man dungeon, 5man heroics, 10man raid instance, 25man raids isntances, and 40man boss encounters?

40 mans ended with classis WoW. BC has none.

I've read that they are going to do a lot more 10 mans this time, but the real progression will be in 25 mans like usual. I'm sure there's going to be a TON of 5 mans again.

you can still 40 man doomwalker and Kazzak

and i really hope WoTLK has more outdoor bosses like the world dragons and such, i really liked those, we need more variety then just DM and DLK

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Aikouka

Originally posted by: Beev
No Gruuls yet. We're stuck in a 10 man rut. It'd be nice if the officers recruited...

I find it's hard for a lot of guilds to get out of that rut. I think only one of the guilds that I'm in is really trying 25 mans, but it seems the 10 man attendance isn't going too well anymore.

Ya no kidding. I really do hope that Blizz realized the impact of their mistake when it comes to raiding and the transition from Vanilla WoW -> TBC.

Going from 40 -> 25 was a very difficult transition. However, I really enjoy raiding a lot more now because of it. It was a wise move. Regardless, it is not like Blizz did not predict the complications a lot of guilds would face due to this change. They knew all guilds had to adjust and move on. They also knew many would permanently break up due to this change. So ya, growing pains.

Now, that wasn't the real issue. The major mistake they made was coupling this 40 -> 25 man transition with Kara. Kara is a required stepping stone in order to progress to Gruul, Mag, SSC, and TK. It is also a 10 man which forced guilds to not only down size their roster to fit the 25 man raids, but they also could only bring 10 people per raid for many months before being able to bring the majority of their guild. I realize many guilds made ends meet one way or another despite this difficult situation, but no matter how you slice it the Kara bottleneck severely fucked tons of guilds. People left guilds all of the time because they were not picked enough to be in the raids even though those people were very good members. Even today, we have people like Beev who are a part of guilds that are still having trouble progressing due to this bottleneck. It was an extremely poor decision to make the first stepping stone for raiding to be a 10 man and a very long instance for that matter.

I truly hope they do not do this ever again in future content. The first raid instance and all raid instances after it which are a part of the main line of progression should be a 25 man instance. 10 mans are great. I love them to death. However, they should be side stepping stones rather than be required in order to progress.

 

[Beev]

Originally posted by: Anubis

Originally posted by: Beev

Originally posted by: AntiFreze
Has blizz announced if they are keeping the same structure with WotLK? 5man dungeon, 5man heroics, 10man raid instance, 25man raids isntances, and 40man boss encounters?

40 mans ended with classis WoW. BC has none.

I've read that they are going to do a lot more 10 mans this time, but the real progression will be in 25 mans like usual. I'm sure there's going to be a TON of 5 mans again.

you can still 40 man doomwalker and Kazzak

and i really hope WoTLK has more outdoor bosses like the world dragons and such, i really liked those, we need more variety then just DM and DLK

Are 40 people the recommended amount to take on those two?

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: AntiFreze
Has blizz announced if they are keeping the same structure with WotLK? 5man dungeon, 5man heroics, 10man raid instance, 25man raids isntances, and 40man boss encounters?

I believe that WotLK will start with the new Naxx being the first raiding instance which is a 25 man. They hinted at this at BlizzCon, but that does necessarily mean that in order to progress through Naxx you can skip any of the 10 mans. As I mentioned in my longer post above, creating another bottleneck like that would be a huge mistake.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Beev

Originally posted by: Anubis

Originally posted by: Beev

Originally posted by: AntiFreze
Has blizz announced if they are keeping the same structure with WotLK? 5man dungeon, 5man heroics, 10man raid instance, 25man raids isntances, and 40man boss encounters?

40 mans ended with classis WoW. BC has none.

I've read that they are going to do a lot more 10 mans this time, but the real progression will be in 25 mans like usual. I'm sure there's going to be a TON of 5 mans again.

you can still 40 man doomwalker and Kazzak

and i really hope WoTLK has more outdoor bosses like the world dragons and such, i really liked those, we need more variety then just DM and DLK

Are 40 people the recommended amount to take on those two?

Depends on your gear and skill. Kazzak needs closer to 40 people much more than Doomwalker due to the nature of the fight. It is a DPS race.

 

[AntiFreze]

they should make 2 different roads.

A road for 10-man run guilds to get to end-game
and a road for 25-man run guilds to get to end-game.

maybe give the 25man instances slightly better gear. but some people just like raiding with a core 10 and others with a core 25.

As long as they could balance the difficulty and loot.

 

[Anubis]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: Beev

Originally posted by: Anubis

Originally posted by: Beev

Originally posted by: AntiFreze
Has blizz announced if they are keeping the same structure with WotLK? 5man dungeon, 5man heroics, 10man raid instance, 25man raids isntances, and 40man boss encounters?

40 mans ended with classis WoW. BC has none.

I've read that they are going to do a lot more 10 mans this time, but the real progression will be in 25 mans like usual. I'm sure there's going to be a TON of 5 mans again.

you can still 40 man doomwalker and Kazzak

and i really hope WoTLK has more outdoor bosses like the world dragons and such, i really liked those, we need more variety then just DM and DLK

Are 40 people the recommended amount to take on those two?

Depends on your gear and skill. Kazzak needs closer to 40 people much more than Doomwalker due to the nature of the fight. It is a DPS race.

we 28 manned kazzak 3 days ago, you dont NEED 40, but it is a DPS race so more helps, however more people = more that can fuck up and kill everyone

the hardest part of kazzak is killing/CCing the other factions druid before he cyclones your tank wipes you

 

[Beev]

Ahh, I was more asking if they were tuned for 25 mans like the dungeons, but people "could" do them with 40 since it was outdoors and that's the raid size limit. I didn't know they were technically 40 man bosses.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: AntiFreze
they should make 2 different roads.

A road for 10-man run guilds to get to end-game
and a road for 25-man run guilds to get to end-game.

maybe give the 25man instances slightly better gear. but some people just like raiding with a core 10 and others with a core 25.

As long as they could balance the difficulty and loot.

I feel that ZA was done perfectly. By no means was it necessary to even touch if you want to complete raid content all the way up to Illidan. However, it provided some nice variety along with some unique items. It gave almost everyone a reason to go there and have some fun. It was difficult, but short. It was a very nice side stepping stone for 25 man raiding guilds and it was very good for 10 man raiding guilds.

Blizz tried to blend a 10 man with the 25 man raid progression when it came to Kara which was the mistake. So, basically you are correct with what you feel they should do. It works out best for everyone in the end and the bottom line is that it is just a lot more fun that way.

 

[Anubis]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: AntiFreze
they should make 2 different roads.

A road for 10-man run guilds to get to end-game
and a road for 25-man run guilds to get to end-game.

maybe give the 25man instances slightly better gear. but some people just like raiding with a core 10 and others with a core 25.

As long as they could balance the difficulty and loot.

I feel that ZA was done perfectly. By no means was it necessary to even touch if you want to complete raid content all the way up to Illidan. However, it provided some nice variety along with some unique items. It gave almost everyone a reason to go there and have some fun. It was difficult, but short. It was a very nice side stepping stone for 25 man raiding guilds and it was very good for 10 man raiding guilds.

Blizz tried to blend a 10 man with the 25 man raid progression when it came to Kara which was the mistake. So, basically you are correct with what you feel they should do. It works out best for everyone in the end and the bottom line is that it is just a lot more fun that way.

the big mistake with kara IMO is that its too damn long, when people first started it in blues it took forever, too many bosses way to much trash and on way to long of a reset

having a 10 man be the start to raiding is fine but it should have only had 4-6 bosses and 1/2 the trash and been on a 3 day reset, much like ZA

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Anubis

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: AntiFreze
they should make 2 different roads.

A road for 10-man run guilds to get to end-game
and a road for 25-man run guilds to get to end-game.

maybe give the 25man instances slightly better gear. but some people just like raiding with a core 10 and others with a core 25.

As long as they could balance the difficulty and loot.

I feel that ZA was done perfectly. By no means was it necessary to even touch if you want to complete raid content all the way up to Illidan. However, it provided some nice variety along with some unique items. It gave almost everyone a reason to go there and have some fun. It was difficult, but short. It was a very nice side stepping stone for 25 man raiding guilds and it was very good for 10 man raiding guilds.

Blizz tried to blend a 10 man with the 25 man raid progression when it came to Kara which was the mistake. So, basically you are correct with what you feel they should do. It works out best for everyone in the end and the bottom line is that it is just a lot more fun that way.

the big mistake with kara IMO is that its too damn long, when people first started it in blues it took forever, too many bosses way to much trash and on way to long of a reset

having a 10 man be the start to raiding is fine but it should have only had 4-6 bosses and 1/2 the trash and been on a 3 day reset, much like ZA

I disagree because it very much limits casual raiding guilds like mine that still want to progress at a good pace. We cannot have two groups run Kara. Without going into detail as to why just trust me that it doesn't work for my guild and many other like mine. This means we have to spend nearly double the time learning and gearing people up.

Then there is recruiting which is a fucking bitch if you are a 25 man guild being forced into this 10 man bottleneck. People being left out of the raids a lot means you will have a % which will either quit or stop showing up because they assume they will not get picked. So, this means you will need to recruit replacements or else you will not have what you need to start the 25 mans when that time comes. Of course, when you recruit someone into a raiding guild, what is the #1 thing that recruit wants? To RAID! However, they will also be left out a lot since 10 mans limit you quite a bit. This does not allow the guild to evaluate the recruit nearly as fast and it increases the chance of that recruit leaving because they are not raiding as much as they hoped.

In regards to your 3 day reset idea, that is fine if you are raiding 25 mans on your primary raid nights, but that sucks if the 10 mans is your primary instance. If you are a guild like mine, you cannot change your 2 nights a week and the fact that those nights fall on Mon and Thurs or else you will fuck everything up because your members depend on those nights remaining the same or else they may have to quit raiding due to their RL schedules. This means that you have 1 night a week to learn the instance before it resets which will limit your progression speed too.

On top of that, tons of guilds on your server will be having the same problem all at once so the recruiting process will be horrifying. It is a huge mess to make a 10 man part of the 25 man progression. There are so many more problems than what I listed here already.


No matter how you slice it, the bottom line is that you can have the raid progression not include the 10 mans as a major stepping stone and still have just as fun of a game. Why cause the problems?

 

[AntiFreze]

wierd issue for people with armory.

Can you explain this.

Saicam (NE hunter) VS. Arkillion (NE hunter)

Saicam has better gear, weapon, higher crit, hit rating, and AP.

but.

Arkillion shows more Damage Per Second for range... how is that possible?

 

[Anubis]

Originally posted by: AntiFreze
wierd issue for people with armory.

Can you explain this.

Saicam (NE hunter) VS. Arkillion (NE hunter)

Saicam has better gear, weapon, higher crit, hit rating, and AP.

but.

Arkillion shows more Damage Per Second for range... how is that possible?

wepon skill?

 

[Anubis]

Originally posted by: Xavier434



No matter how you slice it, the bottom line is that you can have the raid progression not include the 10 mans as a major stepping stone and still have just as fun of a game. Why cause the problems?

see i dissagree with you, it is possiable to make it work it just needs tweaking and really the 5->10->25 stepping is no different then the 5->10->15->40 man stepping that existed in old wow, there were no 20 mans when it all started

 

[QuantumPion]

Originally posted by: Anubis

Originally posted by: AntiFreze
wierd issue for people with armory.

Can you explain this.

Saicam (NE hunter) VS. Arkillion (NE hunter)

Saicam has better gear, weapon, higher crit, hit rating, and AP.

but.

Arkillion shows more Damage Per Second for range... how is that possible?

wepon skill?

The armory is bugged. A similar bug exists with druids that log out in cat form, it says we have ~600 more AP then we actually do.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Anubis

Originally posted by: Xavier434



No matter how you slice it, the bottom line is that you can have the raid progression not include the 10 mans as a major stepping stone and still have just as fun of a game. Why cause the problems?

see i dissagree with you, it is possiable to make it work it just needs tweaking and really the 5->10->25 stepping is no different then the 5->10->15->40 man stepping that existed in old wow, there were no 20 mans when it all started

So you feel that the game would be more fun if it required raiding guilds to progress through 10 mans first as opposed to starting with 25 mans. Why is that way more fun?


To me, content is content but the logistical head aches that come with 10 mans being a part of progression are worthless to the game and would still exist even with the tweaking you suggest for many guilds.

 

[Anubis]

because i dont see it as a major issue in the future, the 40-10-25 is what caused the issue

in WotLK if the fist instance is a kara like 10 man there will be no issue because if you are in a 25 man raiding guild you prob have a 30-35 person core bam 3 groups with some alts, no reason you cant get enough tannks and healers outta that


and bliz will never make the 1st one in progression a 25 man because its a massive turn off to casuals

 

[AntiFreze]

Straying a bit. I'm running ZA tonight - we have been trying to clear ZA in our offnights for fun, badges, and some gear.

We can do all 4 animal bosses and didnt give hex lord much a try. How hard are the final 2 bosses?

 

[Anubis]

hex lord isnt that hard IMO if you have any shadow resist its a joke, 3 healers 1 of which is a Priest with CoH make it a total joke, you will need some CC

Zul Jin is sorta hard, hardest phase is teh eagle phase you need mele for this phase because any time you cast something that costs mana you take 1200 damage

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Anubis
because i dont see it as a major issue in the future, the 40-10-25 is what caused the issue

in WotLK if the fist instance is a kara like 10 man there will be no issue because if you are in a 25 man raiding guild you prob have a 30-35 person core bam 3 groups with some alts, no reason you cant get enough tannks and healers outta that


and bliz will never make the 1st one in progression a 25 man because its a massive turn off to casuals

Here lies the problem with that. On an average raid night, we have 22-28 people show up by raid start time. This easily allows us to form 2 groups for a 10 man on the first of our 2 raid nights a week. However, that means that these 2 groups of 10 mans are now saved to that instance. So, the following night, we are unable to mix and match between the two groups in addition to the members who were unable to attend at all the first night. This can easily cause issues where the result will most likely be that we will have 2 groups our first raid night and only one group our second raid night. This is especially true if we happen to be short on tanks or healers the second night for whatever reason. If attendance were 100% then this would not be an issue but that is simply not the case especially for a casual raiding guild like ours. Not to mention that this further complicates rotating people week after week so everyone can raid.

In conclusion, it just isn't as easy as it seems. There are potential problems involved which no one likes to deal with and they are all logistical which sucks. The way I see it is that on one hand you can incorporate a 10 man into the progression which means you are incorporating these potential problems. On the other hand you can just stick with all 25 mans being a part of the linear progression. If the 10 man option somehow made the game more fun, I would understand but it doesn't. I have never heard a single convincing argument as to why including a 10 man in the linear progression makes the game more fun as opposed to just making them side stepping stones like ZA.