Tesselation done properly..according to AMD

[Aristotelian]

Tesselation is already a selling point. It's a major part of DX11. And I don't know who said they were unimpressed by HAWX2, but man get glasses. Those mountains are breathtaking in their detail. If you don't think so, your loss.

Objectivity with respect to image quality, subjectivity with respect to heat/power/noise (in the past)? I can't help but smile.


This type of personal assessment and feedback is best left to pm's, has no place being posted publicly in VC&G.

Moderator Idontcare

 

[Keysplayr]

Objectivity with respect to image quality, subjectivity with respect to heat/power/noise (in the past)? I can't help but smile.

Well, I like your romper room retort, shows what the rest of us have to deal with in here. The "I know you are but what am I" mentality was surprising to say the least. And the heat/power/noise never bothered me. Not in the entire history of my PC gaming no matter what card I've owned, yet you feel this is somehow connected to the way some terrain and mountains are detailed and the most realistic I've seen. Do you really think they are connected? One in the same? If so, please let me know how.

 

[dust]

Well, I like your romper room retort, shows what the rest of us have to deal with in here. The "I know you are but what am I" mentality was surprising to say the least. And the heat/power/noise never bothered me. Not in the entire history of my PC gaming no matter what card I've owned, yet you feel this is somehow connected to the way some terrain and mountains are detailed and the most realistic I've seen. Do you really think they are connected? One in the same? If so, please let me know how.

Speaking of mountains, has this issue been addressed yet?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlEA8E9NomM

Go to 1:18 min mark.

Of course it's not about tessellation but it's also somewhat newer than Oblivion isn't it, I kinda remember you making a big fuss about this.

 

[Keysplayr]

Speaking of mountains, has this issue been addressed yet?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlEA8E9NomM

Go to 1:18 min mark.

Of course it's not about tessellation but it's also somewhat newer than Oblivion isn't it, I kinda remember you making a big fuss about this.

You "kinda" remember? Or you really don't know what you mean. First of all, look at that terrible quality You Tube video. How is ANYONE supposed to glean any sort of IQ comparison from that? Mountain on both sides looks crappy.
Besides that, I've no idea what you're talking about. You'll need to refresh my memory with links of me talking about it. Otherwise, I'm drawing a blank.

 

[dust]

You "kinda" remember? Or you really don't know what you mean. First of all, look at that terrible quality You Tube video. How is ANYONE supposed to glean any sort of IQ comparison from that? Mountain on both sides looks crappy.
Besides that, I've no idea what you're talking about. You'll need to refresh my memory with links of me talking about it. Otherwise, I'm drawing a blank.

Yeah right, you sir smell of BS! You really can't make out the OBVIOUS difference in the video between the two cards, but you claim you spot the finesse of the tessellation all over the place. The thread you made on IQ differences between the two brands shows some pics where you need a magnifier to spot the difference ,if any, and yet you can't see the difference in the video? Give me a break!!

You want links to what you posted two weeks ago? There you go then : http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2121441

I think I understand where you are coming from. Everything AMD/ATI is doing, is wrong, but when the same things apply to Nvidia there are always third parties to blame.

 

[Aristotelian]

Well, I like your romper room retort, shows what the rest of us have to deal with in here. The "I know you are but what am I" mentality was surprising to say the least. And the heat/power/noise never bothered me. Not in the entire history of my PC gaming no matter what card I've owned, yet you feel this is somehow connected to the way some terrain and mountains are detailed and the most realistic I've seen. Do you really think they are connected? One in the same? If so, please let me know how.

My new posting style (exemplified by the post you quoted) is modeled after yours (minus the emoticons) with respect to brevity and making a simple sniping comment. I suppose it isn't pleasant when it's directed towards you, right? It's good to see that you think so highly of your own posting style. What follows is my typical sort of post.

You claim that IQ is such an objective beast. In the post you quoted I was referring to a previous thread where you singled out BFG10K as having some absurd hearing sensitivity when he claimed that the 480/70 were loud. Plenty of people think that those cards are loud, and objectivity would direct one to conclude the same thing. Loud isn't subjective, and I'll link it to the current discussion in the following. If someone goes clubbing 10 times a week and has much worse hearing than I do, he is not entitled to say "the 480/70 are not loud" because he is making a claim about the cards themselves. In themselves the 480/70 are loud cards, and Nvidia recognized this flaw in the 480/70 by working to make the 580 more quiet. That you and others have such deadened hearing does not indicate anything about the loudness of a card, but rather about how dead your hearing is relative to the average human's.

Similarly, those who claim not to see a difference with tessellation turned on and off, depending on the game, should get their eyes checked. There are IQ differences, and trying to deny that is just as absurd as my hearing example above. It's all objective (to a certain threshold in each case, we can get into that in another thread in OT).

So my point is essentially informing you, Keys, that if you're going to be objective - do it part and parcel. Don't simply pick and choose criterion to label as objective when it suits your promotion of Nvidia's products and as subjective when it suits your protection of them. All of this post was contained in my first one, by the way, or are you unaware of this aspect of your posting history?


You are making this needlessly personal and are bordering on derailing the thread. This isn't the "critique Keysplayr's posting style thread"...

Re:

My new posting style (exemplified by the post you quoted) is modeled after yours (minus the emoticons) with respect to brevity and making a simple sniping comment. I suppose it isn't pleasant when it's directed towards you, right? It's good to see that you think so highly of your own posting style.

Moderator Idontcare

 

[Keysplayr]

Man. You don't get it. Driven by bias? Must be, because I'd be enjoying the very same tesselated terrain in HAWX2 if I were using a 5850.
Can't you get this?
You want to turn this into NV vs AMD more than I ever could.
Not once did I say AMD couldn't tesselate HAWX2, but you sure seem to think so.

 

[Aristotelian]

Useless.

 

[dust]

^^ He was referring to me.

I am not trying at all to make this ATI vs Nvidia, I simply asked if the issue shown in the video has been addressed. You don't believe me? Re-read my first post.
Your reply was however impolite and defensive, just like many of your late posts.

There have been quite a few posters here saying they haven't seen much from tessellation except for one or two released games and the only big difference in Unigine, and yet you insist on the difference. I gave you an example of a BIGGER difference with the video I linked to and guess what, you couldn't summon the impartiality to admit it.

Do you get it now?

 

[SirPauly]

That depends! It's not about how someone defines objective to another but has the person been consistent about their subjective views about noise and thermals for the high end over time.

Being a hypocrite would be not worrying or not that important about noise and thermals with the GTX 480 and then instantly go bonkers because the GTX 580 is cool and quiet, and very important to him.

 

[3DVagabond]

To whom it may concern,
It is best not to respond to flame baiting. Often, it's not the aggressor but the one who retaliates who receives the sanctions. There are people who use this tactic to get their detractors eliminated. Don't be stupid. Make your point and then roll on. There's no need to answer rhetorical questions.

 

[Sp12]

The above. Truly effective incendiary posters will in all likelihood not be the ones getting the infraction -- ignore it and move on, because it's kind of obnoxious to have to sift through it. (Not backseat moderating)

On topic: I feel that by the time tessellation actually makes a difference in such a way that I feel it's important current-gen hardware will in all likelihood be too underpowered to run anything. That said, I don't think it will be underpowered from a tessellation standpoint, but by the time game developers start using it effectively it would be like trying to run Crysis on a 1900XT. I don't think it will be an increase in the amount of tessellation that makes it worthwhile, but rather more effective implementations.

 

[Keysplayr]

To whom it may concern,
It is best not to respond to flame baiting. Often, it's not the aggressor but the one who retaliates who receives the sanctions. There are people who use this tactic to get their detractors eliminated. Don't be stupid. Make your point and then roll on. There's no need to answer rhetorical questions.

This is excellent, excellent advice. So mind your P's and Q's people.

 

[Keysplayr]

The above. Truly effective incendiary posters will in all likelihood not be the ones getting the infraction -- ignore it and move on, because it's kind of obnoxious to have to sift through it. (Not backseat moderating)

On topic: I feel that by the time tessellation actually makes a difference in such a way that I feel it's important current-gen hardware will in all likelihood be too underpowered to run anything. That said, I don't think it will be underpowered from a tessellation standpoint, but by the time game developers start using it effectively it would be like trying to run Crysis on a 1900XT. I don't think it will be an increase in the amount of tessellation that makes it worthwhile, but rather more effective implementations.

Tesselation makes a difference now. And I will maintain this chant if the 6970 launches with superior tesselation power over a GTX580. Right about the time when everyone pulls a 180 who felt the opposite before.

 

[Leadbox]

Tesselation makes a difference now. And I will maintain this chant if the 6970 launches with superior tesselation power over a GTX580. Right about the time when everyone pulls a 180 who felt the opposite before.

Nobody in their right mind would deny that, the issue here is about how much is enough or too much?

 

[busydude]

Tesselation makes a difference now. And I will maintain this chant if the 6970 launches with superior tesselation power over a GTX580. Right about the time when everyone pulls a 180 who felt the opposite before.

I see no poster downplaying the importance of Tessellation, its your example of HAWX 2.. that most were not happy with. Up until now, which includes HAWX 2, has not used tessellation that is a significant improvement over current DX 9 titles, the exception being Unigine engine.

You came in here and made a few nonsensical posts like:

So AMD is effectively saying that Nvidia is doing things wrong because they do too much? As are some folks in here?

Did AMD ever say they are doing it wrong? They said its not an efficient way of doing it, big difference. If you are not happy with AMD's stance on Tessellation.. feel free to add some technical info that rebuts AMD's way of doing Tessellation and it even may help others in understanding tessellation better.

Again you present the example of HAWX 2.. which many, including me, felt is not a good example of "tessellation done right".

And then you come up with this:

Ok, so I see what is happening here and I'm not sure why I didn't expect this. Every Nvidia fan can see a big difference, while every AMD fan can hardly notice it. What you guys are forgetting is, both AMD and NV DX11 cards run HAWX2 just fine with tesselation. So, for me, it isn't about NV tesselating more and faster than AMD counterparts. It's acknowledging the new technology and appreciating it. Closely looking at that terrain impressed me. Nobody can change my mind on that, especially after I spent an hour viewing with Tess on, Tess off, looking at the various landscape detail differences.

Seriously, is that your answer when other members were not impressed with HAWX 2?

You do a great job of inciting flame wars.. the worst part is everyone who fall for the bait gets an infraction and will most definitely think before raising a voice to such nonsense.

 

[Keysplayr]

I see no poster downplaying the importance of Tessellation, its your example of HAWX 2.. that most were not happy with. Up until now, which includes HAWX 2, has not used tessellation that is a significant improvement over current DX 9 titles, the exception being Unigine engine.

You came in here and made a few nonsensical posts like:



Did AMD ever say they are doing it wrong? They said its not an efficient way of doing it, big difference. If you are not happy with AMD's stance on Tessellation.. feel free to add some technical info that rebuts AMD's way of doing Tessellation and it even may help others in understanding tessellation better.

Again you present the example of HAWX 2.. which many, including me, felt is not a good example of "tessellation done right".

And then you come up with this:



Seriously, is that your answer when other members were not impressed with HAWX 2?

You do a great job of inciting flame wars.. the worst part is everyone who fall for the bait gets an infraction and will most definitely think about raising a voice to such nonsense.

My posts are only nonsensical to people who prefer they not make any sense, because how dare I make any sense.. Does that make sense? Or, would the only thing that makes sense to you this:
"AMD has exactly the right amount of tesselation power. Not too much, not too little. It's the Goldielocks of tesselation. They are the ones doing it right. Not that Nvidia company who goes way overboard."

Does that fall in line with your senses?

 

[Keysplayr]

Nobody in their right mind would deny that, the issue here is about how much is enough or too much?

Too Much? You're kidding right? This is the stance AMD is taking? Nvidia does too much, but we do just about enough.
You see, I'm trying to get my mind around this new mentality that defies logic.
The ones who say, "Don't give us too much tesselation power. We need just the right amount. I know this is the course of action AMD is taking, because well, there isn't anything else to be done right now. Downplaying is a game AMD is very practiced at.

 

[3DVagabond]

If tessellation power came for free then I would agree that there is no such thing as good enough. Since it doesn't though I guess it depends on how much you need and how much you are willing to pay for.

It's all academic though. In the end the marketplace decides what's needed. Seems like the marketplace doesn't put a lot of weight in more tessellation power. Seeing as how the prices of these "underpowered" AMD cards keep going up and these overpowered nVidia card's prices keep going the other way.

 

[Aristotelian]

If tessellation power came for free then I would agree that there is no such thing as good enough. Since it doesn't though I guess it depends on how much you need and how much you are willing to pay for.

It's all academic though. In the end the marketplace decides what's needed. Seems like the marketplace doesn't put a lot of weight in more tessellation power. Seeing as how the prices of these "underpowered" AMD cards keep going up and these overpowered nVidia card's prices keep going the other way.

That's precisely what I am trying to get at with respect to the marketplace deciding what variables ought to be emphasized in the cards. People tried to claim that heat/noise/power didn't matter, yet the cards produced (580 so far on Nvidia's side) tend to cater towards the people who claim that those variables did matter.

Regarding tessellation, there still seems to be a battle here for that 'balanced ground', and that's honestly why I believe that non-gaming benchmarks are used to try to make a point that is not always and directly applicable to real gaming scenarios. AMD are improving their tessellation performance but the question is do they really need to beat Nvidia's tessellation performance in order to sell cards? This does not seem to be the case at all. Does this imply that the general public don't care for or are ignorant about what tessellation offers? Or rather that above a certain threshold it's immaterial?

 

[busydude]

Too Much? You're kidding right? This is the stance AMD is taking? Nvidia does too much, but we do just about enough.

Again, why did Nvidia come into picture? Leadbox was not talking about Nvidia either.

From the blog in the OP.. which I am pretty sure you haven't even read:

Tessellation is a terrific tool to deliver more realism and visual fidelity. However, careless use of the technology can quickly overwhelm the GPU and cause it to perform less efficiently with no visible benefit in image quality. Here are some potential pitfalls that can happen when tessellation is employed incorrectly:

• Rasterization: It’s important for all DirectX® 11-capable GPUs that tessellation not result in most polygons covering 1 pixel or less, in order to allow the rasterizers to keep operating at a reasonable level of efficiency.

​

• Overshadowing: If there are high levels of tessellation, it can produce many sub-pixel sized polygons, greatly increasing the impact of overshading.

​

• Multi-sample anti-aliasing (MSAA) techniques: Since tessellation results in a large number of small polygons, it also increases the number of pixels falling on polygon edges, thus reducing the efficiency of MSAA.

To overcome these challenges, our developer relations engineers make sure games can realize the full image quality benefits of tessellation while still making good use of GPU resources. This is done by using a variety of adaptive techniques that use high tessellation levels only for parts of a scene that are close to the viewer, on silhouette edges, or in areas requiring fine detail. Our goal is to keep polygon size at or above 16 pixels as much as possible. This allows for a fairly high polygon density, making scenes look great while also running well on all recent GPUs. We have also developed techniques that can help balance tessellation workloads by doing a limited amount of pre-tessellation in vertex shaders, which can help to reduce the impact of bottlenecks in the rendering pipeline.
As gamers, we know that you just want a game that plays well. At AMD, we are committed to delivering the best possible gaming experience for all gamers, not just those using AMD hardware. To that end, we are continuing our work with developers of DirectX® 11 games to help them use tessellation in the most efficient way possible.

So, what is your opinion on this? Did they bash Nvidia for using "too much tessellation"?

 

[thilanliyan]

Seriously, is that your answer when other members were not impressed with HAWX 2?

Exactly. To me, after seeing something like Unigine or the City demos (which both may be overkill right now but are still impressive nonetheless), tessellation in HAWX 2 is VERY unimpressive. I understand it's just a start, but I'm still unimpressed, and for my part I can't fathom how some people ARE impressed with tessellation in HAWX 2. It barely makes a difference from the screens and videos I've seen.

 

[taltamir]

question, and I am asking seriously here. How much more (if any) effort is required by a game developer to do tessellation the way AMD recommends?

 

[thilanliyan]

^Good question. I'd also like to know.

 

[NoQuarter]

You really can't make out the OBVIOUS difference in the video between the two cards

The difference between the two cards is because they are at different spots of the fly through at that exact moment. Wait 3 sec and the nVidia card reaches that same spot and the mountain is all lit up and pretty too. Any IQ difference between the 2 cards can't be detected on a youtube video, you will *usually* have to blow up a high resolution image and nit pick if you're trying to find faults. Though obviously on the Radeons in Trackmania the filtering optimization is no good, and somehow in Oblivion the AA is getting bypassed or something.