pete6032
Diamond Member
- Dec 3, 2010
- 7,514
- 3,048
- 136
Don't expect it to improve much. There are some interesting plot twists but none of it is very Trek-like aside for the appearance of old TNG characters.
I watched the first five episodes hoping for it to get better and it never did. Even Seven of Nine didn't change things. It felt like the worst of the X-Files, when everything got bogged down in conspiracy on top of conspiracy and they lost what the show was supposed to be about. This *should* have been a been 99% more Star Trek and 999% less Romulan Illuminati bullshit.
JEDI
Lifer
- Sep 25, 2001
- 30,160
- 3,300
- 126
eps 10 (season finale) was garbage!!!
-magic handheld doohickey that can save the day. (where did they get that from anyway?)
-discovering the secret to
-'killing Data' but you can just plug the chips back in and recreate him again (maybe?).
- the signal the synths send to the super evolved synths is not a signal but a stargate wormhole thingy? WTF?
- and The super evolved synth race waiting for 'the signal' is a tentacle fetish wet dream.
just like Discovery, I hope they learn from it for Season 2.
heck, I expected ST: Picard to have already learned from ST: Discovery's mistakes before production began.
sigh...
oh, interesting that 7of9 is a lesbian
edit:
what happened to Nerek at the end after Picard saves the universe (again)?
-magic handheld doohickey that can save the day. (where did they get that from anyway?)
-discovering the secret to
human immortality.
- the signal the synths send to the super evolved synths is not a signal but a stargate wormhole thingy? WTF?
- and The super evolved synth race waiting for 'the signal' is a tentacle fetish wet dream.
just like Discovery, I hope they learn from it for Season 2.
heck, I expected ST: Picard to have already learned from ST: Discovery's mistakes before production began.
sigh...
oh, interesting that 7of9 is a lesbian
edit:
what happened to Nerek at the end after Picard saves the universe (again)?
Last edited:
Captante
Lifer
- Oct 20, 2003
- 30,283
- 10,789
- 136
oh, interesting that 7of9 is a lesbian
Well we certainly do agree on that point!
And I enjoyed the series overall although I also agree they could have done with more scfi space action and less interpersonal stomach-churning drama.
_Rick_
Diamond Member
- Apr 20, 2012
- 3,935
- 68
- 91
I just couldn't like it. It all felt a bit too contrived in the last episode.
I will probably get sucked into watching any future episodes, but boy, they jumped the shark with this one,
Worst was "Picard is dead!" - LOL, no we brought him back, but we're gonna kill Data instead, because he was already dead.
WHAT? What's the point? Did somebody have to die, but it couldn't be Picard, but that would have been too boring by itself?
Also, nobody was surprised, that their Commodore Oh was suddendly leading a Romulan Armada??
WHAT? What's the point? Did somebody have to die, but it couldn't be Picard, but that would have been too boring by itself?
Also, nobody was surprised, that their Commodore Oh was suddendly leading a Romulan Armada??
I will probably get sucked into watching any future episodes, but boy, they jumped the shark with this one,
shortylickens
No Lifer
- Jul 15, 2003
- 82,854
- 17,365
- 136
ultimatebob
Lifer
- Jul 1, 2001
- 25,135
- 2,445
- 126
I don't know... they would need to completely rework the show to make it good. Star Trek was at it's best when each episode was a contained story with a thought provoking idea. This season was ten episodes with a single "Umm... racism is bad, OK"? plot line.
lxskllr
No Lifer
- Nov 30, 2004
- 57,462
- 7,665
- 126
Yea, I agree with all of that, especially the first point. I was thinking that at work yesterday, and I give pretty much zero thought to this kind of thing usually. If an unmotivated dummy can see your error, you're probably doing something wrong.
JEDI
Lifer
- Sep 25, 2001
- 30,160
- 3,300
- 126
yeah, ninja elf dude was completely unnecessary.
without him in the show, I wouldn't be screaming at the tv 'why are they fighting the ninja elf hand to hand instead of blasting him with their phasers?'
and now that soji is joining the crew in their adventures, it makes him doubly unnecessary since she's a killer robot.
i disagree with his assessment of the Borg subplot. it's a good tie in to get us 7of9.
heaven knows the show needs eye candy, even if she's 51
ultimatebob
Lifer
- Jul 1, 2001
- 25,135
- 2,445
- 126
I actually liked The Orville, though. It kept the "One episode = One cool SciFi story that makes you think" format that made the older Star Trek shows good.
I'm just bummed out that I'm going to have to get a Hulu trial the watch the next season.
gorobei
Diamond Member
- Jan 7, 2007
- 3,676
- 1,001
- 136
the RedLetterMedia guys have been ripping apart the flaws and contradictions in STPicard pretty savagely. the bulk of their argument being Alex Kurtzman didnt watch TNG and has no clue about what people liked about TNG. though Michael Chabon is seemingly the showrunner and listed as writer on most of the episodes.
the writing in general doesnt really work and frequently contradicts everything we knew about capt picard that we saw over 7 seasons of TNG. the editing on some episodes makes a bunch of stuff fall flat. the dialogue is cringeworthy in more than a few scenes.
it feels rushed, like something made during a writers strike.
I can imagine a longer version where they could take their time and develop the characters, get rid of some the glaring "new trek" style over substance.
its fine if you like it, but it feels like it is coasting on the residual good will from TNG to forgive all the modern sins.
the writing in general doesnt really work and frequently contradicts everything we knew about capt picard that we saw over 7 seasons of TNG. the editing on some episodes makes a bunch of stuff fall flat. the dialogue is cringeworthy in more than a few scenes.
it feels rushed, like something made during a writers strike.
I can imagine a longer version where they could take their time and develop the characters, get rid of some the glaring "new trek" style over substance.
its fine if you like it, but it feels like it is coasting on the residual good will from TNG to forgive all the modern sins.
Rushed? It feels like they ran out of ideas on day 1 and spent months padding out 10 minutes of material to fill 10 episodes. A longer version would be exactly the wrong thing to do. The story SUCKED. The characters didn't have anything interesting to do, fleshing them out would accomplish nothing. The only way to save it would have been to condense the Romulan conspiracies and the Blade Runner moralizing bullshit down to 1/20th of what they were and stick them in the background of a normal Star Trek series. Picard wants to right some past wrongs, so goes on a quest which leads him through a gauntlet of normal space adventures each leading him further along the path. If they had made each episode a stand-alone Star Trek episode with a new story every week and only the vague thread of the synth crap acting as a MacGuffin to tie it all together it might have worked. But they fucked up every single aspect. Picard wasn't Picard. He wasn't important. He wasn't forceful. The other characters were dull. Nobody cared about them or what they were doing. Every single aspect failed. Longer? If would have been a hell of a lot better if it was shorter. 90% of what made it on the air shouldn't have.
How about this: If the Romulan story wasn't strong enough to make it a continuing thread through a whole season make it a one-off, wrap it up quickly and use it as a springboard into the new series. Take that entire season and cut it down to a single episode, maybe a two parter at the most as there wasn't enough decent material there to fill more than that. Picard is unsettled about the whole Romulan aid synth thing from his past and comes back, recruits a crew and fixes it. Their continuing adventures after solving the Romulan storyline makes up the rest of the season. You could hire a could of hacks to recycle TNG material that wound up on the cutting room floor and it still would have been 1000% better than what they did with Picard.
Last edited:
gorobei
Diamond Member
- Jan 7, 2007
- 3,676
- 1,001
- 136
the series as a whole is a slapdash bodge job when it comes to pacing and execution. they rush from mini crisis to mini crisis with solutions out of nowhere to move the action foward in order to cover up the plot holes and lack of coherency.(a worrying trend ie riseofskywalker, chrischibnal drwho, stdiscovery)
but there are plenty of character arcs that could have been developed and landed with tons of emotional impact. unfortunately we got the rushed versions that werent built up so they had no impact because you didnt care about any of the characters or what happened to them. stuff happens out of nowhere in rapid succession with no explanation or establish shots. but that doesnt mean there werent stories you could tell. they just need time to build up to something.
the android and romulan stuff was absolutely and demonstrably poorly executed(see the redlettermedia reviews). the main problem being the pacing of what is revealed and when it is revealed. Flash season1 does a masterful job of pacing out the reveal of people not being who you think they are. hell even season1 of Fringe which kurtzman worked on manages to do its reveals properly.
ignore the mess of what kurtzman and chabon did and consider what they could have done.
- picard is functionally dying, there could have been a nice arc of him settled in his vineyard waiting to die a comfortable death and eventually answering the call to duty to reclaim his old self. if each episode had been about him revisiting past failures or regrets and building up to a decision to sacrifce himself as the climax approaches, it could have landed with a ton of resonance. instead we got a rushed kamikaze scene in the span of 2min with zero time given to show the contemplation of consequences to inform the decision made by two of the characters most in need of redemption. little scenes of picard's body failing him and forcing him to change his decision making and outlook over multiple episodes could have been done subtly instead of a "previously on Picard" reminder on the last 2 episodes.
-rios could have been a strict mercenary looking to get paid who comes around to believing in a leader again and in the end offering the only thing he values, his ship, to picard to kamikaze in.
-soji's arc should have been about betrayal(romulan boyfriend, android 3rd sister) and regaining trust, with the eventual realization that picard was family. but all we get is the ryker-troi episode to set up the idea but never any other scenes/actions towards building her confidence in picard.
-elnor could have been an angry child with murderskills chafing at the limits picard set with him eventually learning picard's moral compass and eventually leaving to choose fights based on his new picardified righteous judgement.
-narek the romulan boyfriend could have had an arc based on philosophical curiosity where he actually tests some of the precepts of the jadvash cult and makes his own free choices based on the truth he finds. but based on what kurtzman/chabon came up with, the cult was arguably right to destroy the androids just to be on the safe side. changing some of the character flips and plot twists by adding more doubt and nuance could have made a better version.
all these things take time/scenes/dialogue. but they went with the action movie vibe of newtrek, instead of the philosophical approach of TNG. 5 to 7 additional episodes while getting rid of some the faff in ep1&2 could have given them the time needed.
in screenwriting you are supposed to workshop a small(3min short), med(23 min episode), long(1hour or feature film) version of the story you want to tell.
you obviously have to cut back or scale down some of the scope/consequences for the smaller versions. 10 episodes is too small for a fate of humanity/galaxy story like s1 picard. a plot with smaller stakes would have been appropriate but that isnt how newtrek works under kurtzman.
the simpler version you argue for is correct but it is an entirely different story.
they chose to do the long version of the romulan/android story so it is all or nothing. but this inbetween version with big stakes and no time to tell anything compelling is why s1 fails. (that and the beacon turning into a wormhole thingy for no reason. but it could have been solved by having soji being given a choice by the super androids to take them to android paradise dimension or killing the humans and her going for option3: co-existence with humanity)
but there are plenty of character arcs that could have been developed and landed with tons of emotional impact. unfortunately we got the rushed versions that werent built up so they had no impact because you didnt care about any of the characters or what happened to them. stuff happens out of nowhere in rapid succession with no explanation or establish shots. but that doesnt mean there werent stories you could tell. they just need time to build up to something.
the android and romulan stuff was absolutely and demonstrably poorly executed(see the redlettermedia reviews). the main problem being the pacing of what is revealed and when it is revealed. Flash season1 does a masterful job of pacing out the reveal of people not being who you think they are. hell even season1 of Fringe which kurtzman worked on manages to do its reveals properly.
ignore the mess of what kurtzman and chabon did and consider what they could have done.
- picard is functionally dying, there could have been a nice arc of him settled in his vineyard waiting to die a comfortable death and eventually answering the call to duty to reclaim his old self. if each episode had been about him revisiting past failures or regrets and building up to a decision to sacrifce himself as the climax approaches, it could have landed with a ton of resonance. instead we got a rushed kamikaze scene in the span of 2min with zero time given to show the contemplation of consequences to inform the decision made by two of the characters most in need of redemption. little scenes of picard's body failing him and forcing him to change his decision making and outlook over multiple episodes could have been done subtly instead of a "previously on Picard" reminder on the last 2 episodes.
-rios could have been a strict mercenary looking to get paid who comes around to believing in a leader again and in the end offering the only thing he values, his ship, to picard to kamikaze in.
-soji's arc should have been about betrayal(romulan boyfriend, android 3rd sister) and regaining trust, with the eventual realization that picard was family. but all we get is the ryker-troi episode to set up the idea but never any other scenes/actions towards building her confidence in picard.
-elnor could have been an angry child with murderskills chafing at the limits picard set with him eventually learning picard's moral compass and eventually leaving to choose fights based on his new picardified righteous judgement.
-narek the romulan boyfriend could have had an arc based on philosophical curiosity where he actually tests some of the precepts of the jadvash cult and makes his own free choices based on the truth he finds. but based on what kurtzman/chabon came up with, the cult was arguably right to destroy the androids just to be on the safe side. changing some of the character flips and plot twists by adding more doubt and nuance could have made a better version.
all these things take time/scenes/dialogue. but they went with the action movie vibe of newtrek, instead of the philosophical approach of TNG. 5 to 7 additional episodes while getting rid of some the faff in ep1&2 could have given them the time needed.
in screenwriting you are supposed to workshop a small(3min short), med(23 min episode), long(1hour or feature film) version of the story you want to tell.
you obviously have to cut back or scale down some of the scope/consequences for the smaller versions. 10 episodes is too small for a fate of humanity/galaxy story like s1 picard. a plot with smaller stakes would have been appropriate but that isnt how newtrek works under kurtzman.
the simpler version you argue for is correct but it is an entirely different story.
they chose to do the long version of the romulan/android story so it is all or nothing. but this inbetween version with big stakes and no time to tell anything compelling is why s1 fails. (that and the beacon turning into a wormhole thingy for no reason. but it could have been solved by having soji being given a choice by the super androids to take them to android paradise dimension or killing the humans and her going for option3: co-existence with humanity)
_Rick_
Diamond Member
- Apr 20, 2012
- 3,935
- 68
- 91
Good point. How come the androids backing the extinction of all life in the galaxy aren't the bad guys, but the Romulans trying to stop them are?
Imagine they told the story without the Romulans being "evil" and "crazy", and instead paint a picture of them genuinely fighting for survival.
But they get painted in the evil corner right away, taking all moral questionmarks off the table in episode 1.
Imagine they told the story without the Romulans being "evil" and "crazy", and instead paint a picture of them genuinely fighting for survival.
But they get painted in the evil corner right away, taking all moral questionmarks off the table in episode 1.
pete6032
Diamond Member
- Dec 3, 2010
- 7,514
- 3,048
- 136
Also why did all the androids all suddenly decide to follow soji and not reactivate the beacon? Just because soji didn't want it activated meant that they all changed their collective minds?
And with the desire of the Romulus to destroy synthetic life running so deeply inside of them I find it hard to accept that the Romulus would just warp their entire fleet out of there after what happened. Hundreds of thousands of years of belief just thrown down the drain?
bbhaag
Diamond Member
- Jul 2, 2011
- 6,669
- 2,057
- 146
Yeah the first season of TNG is pretty bad but got a lot better after that.
I'll probably catch some shit for saying this but ST Enterprise was the same way. The first season was awful but after that it was some of the best ST ever. Because of that I don't believe the argument that TNG was great because each episode was a one and done. ST Enterprise had multiple episode story arcs that went a whole season and even one season into the next and it was fantastic.
Fritzo
Lifer
- Jan 3, 2001
- 41,886
- 2,128
- 126
Well, Enterprise didn't actually get better until Season 3/4, mostly because the theme song made everyone angry before the show even started
bbhaag
Diamond Member
- Jul 2, 2011
- 6,669
- 2,057
- 146
Maybe, I'd argue that mid way through season 2 is when it started to take off and get really good.Well, Enterprise didn't actually get better until Season 3/4, mostly because the theme song made everyone angry before the show even started
No doubt the theme song really tanked it from the get go though but I guess that just goes to show you how pretentious ST fans can be. Letting a theme song get in the way of a great story is just bad form IMO but watcha gonna do.....
Anyway, my point still stands. I still don't buy the argument that the reason TNG was so good was because most episodes were a self contained story with a beginning and an end.
Yeah the 3 episode arcs in the last season were great. The augments and the marauder were my favourite episodes of the series.
So its kinda a sci-fi show that has some people who played roles in Star Trek in it and brought the Borg in for...a cheap attention grab? I waited for that to really matter. And the Romulan Samurai. And...well a fair number of things. And while Star Trek was never completely about the starships at least give us something better than a glorified shuttle craft and two copypasta armadas. And that many ships commanded by a Captain they yoiked from retirement? Uh...ok.
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