Teacher fired for using non preferred pronoun

[fskimospy]

If you did this you wouldn't run afoul of these laws. You only have problems when a student, for example, says DO NOT call me a "he," I prefer "ze" or whatever, and you continue to call them "he." This is harassment, the same as if a teacher started calling an effeminate looking boy "she" over and over. That's fucking harassment, and deserves termination.

And even in that case only if you deliberately do so for the purpose of causing them distress.

If it were any other topic where administration was telling a teacher to stop verbally harassing a student, they refused, and were fired nobody would raise an eyebrow.

 

[ivwshane]

According to the article, the teacher did respect his name, but avoided pronouns. He’s a French teacher, maybe he doesn’t know how to conjugate for woke.

Most schools separate junior high health classes by biological sex. He is going to menstruate. He is going to develop breasts. He can get pregnant. Biological based classes for biological women are gendered to women. Are we going to have to change biology classes as well to accomodate gender expression?

What does that have to do with the topic? Asking teachers to be respectful of their students isn’t a slippery slope.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

No, because sex and gender are two different things. One is biological and one is social/cultural.

What’s asked of this teacher is literally the smallest concession possible, to say one pronoun slightly differently for one person. If someone is unwilling to make such a tiny accommodation in defiance of their boss’s orders they should be fired.

Imagine if someone was born XXY. In some cases those people develop both male and female sex characteristics. Maybe in that case the teacher demands to call the student ‘it’ or ‘they’ using the same argument as cited in the article. Would that be okay?

And one is accepted, understood, and valued as biological scientific fact.

The other is based on theories that relate nothing to science.

One is to be respected and acknowledged as fact, the other is "it makes me feel good" and is often prone to abuse.


IMO pronoun changes and requiring me to utilize them whenever addressing you aren't acceptable. Name changes are acceptable. You can't control your biology in life, but you can control your name... especially if your parents gave you a crappy one or something.

 

[dank69]

Read the article and skimmed the lawsuit. The teacher says he tried to avoid all pronouns and called the student by his preferred male name, but in one instance slipped and called him "her." If this is an accurate portrayal of what happened, then I would not think this crossed the line into harassment. However, his lawsuit falsely states that he was fired for not using the preferred pronoun, when in fact he was fired for using a pronoun that the student requested not to be used.

 

[UglyCasanova]

Two side of the same coin imo

 

[Fanatical Meat]

According to the article, the teacher did respect his name, but avoided pronouns. He’s a French teacher, maybe he doesn’t know how to conjugate for woke.

Most schools separate junior high health classes by biological sex. He is going to menstruate. He is going to develop breasts. He can get pregnant. Biological based classes for biological women are gendered to women. Are we going to have to change biology classes as well to accomodate gender expression?

Is you argument “he” shouldn’t attend a biology class geared for “she’s”?

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Read the article and skimmed the lawsuit. The teacher says he tried to avoid all pronouns and called the student by his preferred male name, but in one instance slipped and called him "her." If this is an accurate portrayal of what happened, then I would not think this crossed the line into harassment. However, his lawsuit falsely states that he was fired for not using the preferred pronoun, when in fact he was fired for using a pronoun that the student requested not to be used.

From managing people it will be interesting what sort of notes the school kept regarding coaching him for improvement and what run up to him being fired.
Per experience there will either be a shit ton of supporting files or none at all.

 

[fskimospy]

And one is accepted, understood, and valued as biological scientific fact.

The other is based on theories that relate nothing to science.

Gender is based on theories that relate nothing to science? Rejecting the idea of gender as distinct from sex is a pretty ridiculous idea considering it's an ironclad fact. There are (effectively) only two biological sexes and there are numerous examples of societies with more than two socially recognized gender roles. If there are only two sexes and more than two genders, gender is obviously distinct from sex. If you don't like that this is the case that's fine but you can't expect us to indulge you in the idea that it doesn't exist.

One is to be respected and acknowledged as fact, the other is "it makes me feel good" and is often prone to abuse.

Asking for someone to call you by your preferred pronoun is literally the smallest thing I can think of to ask of another person. More importantly, they were ordered to do so by their boss.

This teacher has a lot of growing up to do because he seems to think he has some sort of inherent right to ignore his boss and refer to students however he wants to. He doesn't.

IMO pronoun changes and requiring me to utilize them whenever addressing you aren't acceptable. Name changes are acceptable. You can't control your biology in life, but you can control your name... especially if your parents gave you a crappy one or something.

That's your choice to make! It's also your boss's choice to make to fire you over it if you refuse to abide by your workplace's code of conduct.

I'm not sure why you keep mentioning biology though because gender is not biological in origin, it's cultural in origin.

 

[Starbuck1975]

No, because sex and gender are two different things. One is biological and one is social/cultural.

Yes they are. Human language evolved based on a biological binary, not personal expression. Gender is a social construct built upon a biological reality.

What’s asked of this teacher is literally the smallest concession possible, to say one pronoun slightly differently for one person. If someone is unwilling to make such a tiny accommodation in defiance of their boss’s orders they should be fired.

There is little legal or societal precedence to support a supervisor making such demands.

Imagine if someone was born XXY. In some cases those people develop both male and female sex characteristics. Maybe in that case the teacher demands to call the student ‘it’ or ‘they’ using the same argument as cited in the article. Would that be okay?

Those people are biologically intersexed, and it is up to their parents, doctors and ultimately them for how they choose to live their life, which is a private matter.

 

[Starbuck1975]

What does that have to do with the topic? Asking teachers to be respectful of their students isn’t a slippery slope.

The slippery slope is the definition of respect within this context, especially because identity inevitably clashes with biology in irrefutable ways.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Is you argument “he” shouldn’t attend a biology class geared for “she’s”?

No. He belongs in the health class of his biological sex. That class will not be gendered to his identity. What constitutes respect in that context.

 

[fskimospy]

Yes they are. Human language evolved based on a biological binary, not personal expression. Gender is a social construct built upon a biological reality.

Great, then we agree that gender and sex are two distinct things.

Also, in plenty of cultures around the world for centuries two biologically identical people (from a sex perspective) are thought of as two different genders. It seems strange to pretend centuries (millennia?) of human history don't exist in this regard.

There is little legal or societal precedence to support a supervisor making such demands.

You're saying it's unprecedented or inappropriate for school administration to tell teachers to refer to students how they wish to be referred to?

Those people are biologically intersexed, and it is up to their parents, doctors and ultimately them for how they choose to live their life, which is a private matter.

Right, so by the teacher's argument they should be called 'it' or 'they' as neither 'he' nor 'she' is biologically correct. Do you think it would be appropriate to call the child 'it'? If not, what is the difference?

 

[Fanatical Meat]

No. He belongs in the health class of his biological sex. That class will not be gendered to his identity. What constitutes respect in that context.

Different discussion create a thread about it

 

[Homerboy]

Teacher sounds like a pompous dick. Glad he was fired.

 

[fskimospy]

Different discussion create a thread about it

I mean the answer there is as easy as the answer here - let the kid work it out with the school. Whatever decision the school makes the teacher follows because the administrators run the school, not the teachers.

If the teacher refuses to follow the decision and insists that the instructional leadership of the school cater their classes and curriculum to the teacher's personal preferences then they get fired for insubordination.

 

[UglyCasanova]

You're saying it's unprecedented or inappropriate for school administration to tell teachers to refer to students how they wish to be referred to?

I’d think so when that differs from the norms that the society they are in is accustomed to even if you subscribe to the idea of their being more than two genders.

 

[interchange]

You’re exactly right, it’s about someone putting on their big boy pants.

The teacher was given reasonable direction by administration to treat their students with respect and call them by what they wished to be called. They petulantly refused and were rightly fired.

Sometimes being an adult and having a job means doing things you don’t want to do. It’s long since time that teacher grew up and learned that.

Exactly. The school has the right to say how it should be handled, and the teacher repeatedly defied. This wasn't voicing a dissenting opinion or making a mistake he was fired for.

 

[ivwshane]

I’d think so when that differs from the norms that the society they are in is accustomed to even if you subscribe to the idea of their being more than two genders.

So your solution is for the teacher to take it out on the kid instead of taking it up with his EMPLOYER? This is surprising coming from someone who feels people should respect their opinions because it’s how they feel. If anyone supported this teacher being fired I would have thought if would be you.

 

[Homerboy]

I’d think so when that differs from the norms that the society they are in is accustomed to even if you subscribe to the idea of their being more than two genders.

Maybe society is changing, and you're being left behind?

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Exactly. The school has the right to say how it should be handled, and the teacher repeatedly defied. This wasn't voicing a dissenting opinion or making a mistake he was fired for.

And this is why they’re going for the religious route. I’m confident the lawyer has asked for documents leading up to his dismissal and I’d bet they are pretty damming hence this outside chance attempt.
Hey go for it. Win-win either way. Be wonderful to selectively not perform tasks my employers requires or asks me to do because of my religion.

 

[ch33zw1z]

So your solution is for the teacher to take it out on the kid instead of taking it up with his EMPLOYER? This is surprising coming from someone who feels people should respect their opinions because it’s how they feel. If anyone supported this teacher being fired I would have thought if would be you.

To this that his idea carries merit would mean one would think he operates in the state of logic and self reflection.

 

[ch33zw1z]

And this is why they’re going for the religious route. I’m confident the lawyer has asked for documents leading up to his dismissal and I’d bet they are pretty damming hence this outside chance attempt.
Hey go for it. Win-win either way. Be wonderful to selectively not perform tasks my employers requires or asks me to do because of my religion.

Yup, I'm gonna to design my own and gather followers. "The unenlightened temple of ch33z" - I can only work from 8-5 M-F, anything else is against my religion.

 

[Homerboy]

Yup, I'm gonna to design my own and gather followers. "The unenlightened temple of ch33z" - I can only work from 8-5 M-F, anything else is against my religion.

Funny, I was going to start one too "The unenlightened temple of Homer " - I can't work but you still need to pay me for 8-5 M-F, anything else is against my religion.

 

[ivwshane]

Yup, I'm gonna to design my own and gather followers. "The unenlightened temple of ch33z" - I can only work from 8-5 M-F, anything else is against my religion.

Great! It looks like we will spend centuries fighting each other now because my religion says I can only work four days a week and I get to determine when.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Yup, I'm gonna to design my own and gather followers. "The unenlightened temple of ch33z" - I can only work from 8-5 M-F, anything else is against my religion.

I’ll start the church of Meat, we don’t attend staff meetings and are required to be 60 minutes late for work and late coming back from break.
We also are required to call anyone with the title Boss or Manager or Controller or Vice
President or director or a whole lot of other titles Asshole or asshat or assclown.
We can’t address them in any other manner.
Also we don’t use email for work. No electronic communications will be looked at.