Switzerland votes whether to ban Muslim Minarets.

[DucatiMonster696]

You either defend your society along with its values, laws and culture which make your nation unique or you allow yourself to get rolled over and steam rolled by those with the determination to brush aside yours in favors of their own. If the Swiss want to maintain their Western European uniqueness as a nation, society and people then that is their right. They didn't ban the practicing of Islam with this action however they have sent a clear message that they will not go quietly into the night and watch their entire way of life be subverted and replaced by a totally alien society and culture which is anathema to Western society along with the values, morals, and laws built upon this civilization.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

Maybe that has to do with the oil control in the ME and how we continue to meddle daily because we want control of the oil.. perhaps propping up their dictators while making them rich has made them angry...

They were killing each other long before Western nations became involved which was about the time the Ottoman Empire fell due to the fact that they backed the wrong side during WW1.

 

[shadow9d9]

The fear and ignorance in this thread is no different than the fear and ignorance in the ME... the difference is that one group has a high standard of living, basic freedoms, and access to unlimited education, while the other group is kept poor, isolated, and oppressed.

It is sad and pathetic that even with access to unlimited information, the same ignorance and fear runs rampant without any understanding of history or why things have gone down this path... thus ensuring it will continue to go down this path.

 

[shadow9d9]

They were killing each other long before Western nations became involved which was about the time the Ottoman Empire fell due to the fact that they backed the wrong side during WW1.

Crusades
Spanish Inquisition
Inquisition

Is this where we go through history comparing religions and how they are all nuts?

 

[theflyingpig]

Maybe that has to do with the oil control in the ME and how we continue to meddle daily because we want control of the oil.. perhaps propping up their dictators while making them rich has made them angry...

In other words, you think it's ok for them to attack the west, "because they are angry". Pathetic. You are nothing more than an enabler.

 

[shadow9d9]

In other words, you think it's ok for them to attack the west, "because they are angry". Pathetic. You are nothing more than an enabler.

In other words, you have no ability to see grey areas, only absolutes. In absolutes, you have no interest in why things have happened the way they have and why they will continue to be that way. They are bad, you are good. End of story. Simple story for a simple mind.

And I am pretty sure Britain attacked them first... But let's not let history bother our absolutes.

Can't have it both ways.. you can't prop up their dictators and make them rich with one hand, and then blame the people you helped oppress with the other. We are still doing it to this day. Remember our "allies", the Saudis? You know.. where 16/17 hijackers came from?

 

[DucatiMonster696]

Crusades
Spanish Inquisition
Inquisition

Is this where we go through history comparing religions and how they are all nuts?

Of the 3 mentioned only 1 event ever landed on Middle-Eastern soil. Of course you forget to mention how the invasion of Eastern Europe by the Muslims along with a few notable highlights such as the fact that the Moors invaded Spain and not the other way around.

 

[theflyingpig]

In other words, you have no ability to see grey areas, only absolutes. In absolutes, you have no interest in why things have happened the way they have and why they will continue to be that way. They are bad, you are good. End of story. Simple story for a simple mind.

And I am pretty sure Britain attacked them first... But let's not let history bother our absolutes.

No, you're of the mindset that everything we do harms other people, and that justifies their hatred for us. It's a pathetic viewpoint, that unfortunately, many on this board share. You are among them. The fools. The fools who would do and say anything to make it seem as though we are the evil ones. You would ignore the atrocities committed by the other side, only to place blame on us. Even now, you criticize Switzerland for protecting itself from infestation. You just can't admit the truth, not even to yourself. Open your eyes, friend. Open them and see the truth.

 

[shadow9d9]

Of the 3 mentioned only 1 event ever landed on Middle-Eastern soil. Of course you forget to mention how the invasion of Eastern Europe by the Muslims along with a few notable highlights such as the fact that the Moors invaded Spain and not the other way around.

" Originally Posted by DucatiMonster696 View Post
They were killing each other"

Seems to fit. Or is it only bad when the opposing religion does it?

The rest of your rant belongs in freeperville for pure crazy.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

In other words, you have no ability to see grey areas, only absolutes. In absolutes, you have no interest in why things have happened the way they have and why they will continue to be that way. They are bad, you are good. End of story. Simple story for a simple mind.

And I am pretty sure Britain attacked them first... But let's not let history bother our absolutes.

Can't have it both ways.. you can't prop up their dictators and make them rich with one hand, and then blame the people you helped oppress with the other. We are still doing it to this day. Remember our "allies", the Saudis? You know.. where 16/17 hijackers came from?

Yes and you would allow the ideology of those hijackers to run rampant in your attempt to appease the gods of political correctness.

In essence you are upset at the intolerance of the Swiss toward Muslims who are intolerant of Western society and culture.

 

[tvarad]

Maybe that has to do with the oil control in the ME and how we continue to meddle daily because we want control of the oil.. perhaps propping up their dictators while making them rich has made them angry...

Well, the Iranians have kept their oil wealth out of the grubby hands of the West for three decades, and they're still in a s**thole. Care to explain why?

 

[shadow9d9]

Yes and you would allow the ideology of those hijackers to run rampant in your attempt to appease the gods of political correctness.

In essence you are upset at the intolerance of the Swiss toward Muslims who are intolerant of Western society and culture.

Let's face it, you are part of this our religion vs their religion craziness that has gone on since the beginning of time. You are just as fundamentally insane as they are, without the excuse of being oppressed or deprived of education.

If you help keep people oppressed, don't be surprised if they get angry. Your solution? Attack them! Brilliant!

 

[CanOWorms]

Remember our "allies", the Saudis? You know.. where 16/17 hijackers came from?

Wrong, some of them came from Germany. For example, Atta was radicalized in Germany and traveled from Germany to the United States. Germany, our "ally" indeed.

 

[shadow9d9]

Well, the Iranians have kept their oil wealth out of the grubby hands of the West for three decades, and they're still in a s**thole. Care to explain the why?

You can't figure it out yourself?

Which part do you need explaining?

Do you need it explained that the "west" has invaded and occupied every country surrounding Iran? They are able to sell oil elsewhere, and have used the west's invasions, occupations, and constant meddling to instill fear in their populace.

Last I heard though, Iran didn't attack the US nor were involved in 9/11. Strange.

 

[Zebo]

The fear and ignorance in this thread is no different than the fear and ignorance in the ME... the difference is that one group has a high standard of living, basic freedoms, and access to unlimited education, while the other group is kept poor, isolated, and oppressed.

It is sad and pathetic that even with access to unlimited information, the same ignorance and fear runs rampant without any understanding of history or why things have gone down this path... thus ensuring it will continue to go down this path.

Kept poor? Total explanation of the universe, total regulation of life, and only using half it's workforce will do that to a society.

If it weren't for accident of geology ME would be poorer than Africa. The only reason we even fuck with these barbarians is oil.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

Let's face it, you are part of this our religion vs their religion craziness that has gone on since the beginning of time. You are just as fundamentally insane as they are, without the excuse of being oppressed or deprived of education.

If you help keep people oppressed, don't be surprised if they get angry. Your solution? Attack them! Brilliant!

Good to see you have no real rebuttal other then baseless rants.

Also these "oppressed people" are always free to move back to their country of origin.

Of course in reality no one is being oppressed as this is just a way to try to create a notion of victimization out of thin air.

These people are visitors/guests in a nation that was willing and kind enough to allow them to enter. If they want to become a part of Swiss society then they should integrate their religious beliefs to be more compatible and less intrusive with the nation which did them the favor in allowing them to immigrate.

 

[shadow9d9]

Good to see you have no real rebuttal other then baseless rants.

Also these "oppressed people" are always free to move back to their country of origin.

Of course in reality no one is being oppressed as this is just a way to try to create notion of victimization out of thin air.

These people are visitors/guests in a nation that was willing and kind enough to allow them to enter. If they want to become a part of Swiss society then they should integrate their religious beliefs to be more compatible and less intrusive with the nation which is did them the favor in allowed them to immigrate.

Your hatred and ignorance will lead to death.. it is what you want, so have at it.

 

[shadow9d9]

Kept poor? Total explanation of the universe, total regulation of life, and only using half it's workforce will do that to a society.

If it weren't for accident of geology ME would be poorer than Africa. The only reason we even fuck with these barbarians is oil.

Fuck= meaning manipulate, invade, and occupy? Oh yes, we are fucking them alright. Pretty sure all 3 are "barbaric" acts.

 

[shadow9d9]

Wrong, some of them came from Germany. For example, Atta was radicalized in Germany and traveled from Germany to the United States. Germany, our "ally" indeed.

1 = some?

Seriously.. how could ONE getting "radicalized" in Germany become SOME in your book!? Disingenuous and sad attempt there...

"Among that handful were the 15 hijackers who joined the pilots aboard the four airplanes. All but one were from Saudi Arabia"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/04/28/AR2005042801315.html

 

[JEDIYoda]

The fear and ignorance in this thread is no different than the fear and ignorance in the ME... the difference is that one group has a high standard of living, basic freedoms, and access to unlimited education, while the other group is kept poor, isolated, and oppressed.

It is sad and pathetic that even with access to unlimited information, the same ignorance and fear runs rampant without any understanding of history or why things have gone down this path... thus ensuring it will continue to go down this path. no you are whats is sad and pathetic because you do not understand history at all!!

No your sympathizing with Muslims ranks of out and out stoopidity!
The Muslims are not being oppressed by the west...so get over it!!
Just like the Palestinians the Muslims are their own worse enemy!!!

You try to go all politically correct in your assertions that the Muslims are denied a high standard of living, basic freedoms, and access to unlimited education, while the other group is kept poor, isolated, and oppressed.

What is sad and Pathetic your blatant nievete concerning this whole subject!
In fact you probably believe that every nation on earth should be equal.

Finally I agree with DucatiMonster696 when he says -- These people are visitors/guests in a nation that was willing and kind enough to allow them to enter. If they want to become a part of Swiss society then they should integrate their religious beliefs to be more compatible and less intrusive with the nation which is did them the favor in allowed them to immigrate.

If I may point out these people could have stayed in their own country and tried to change......

 

[DucatiMonster696]

Your hatred and ignorance will lead to death.. it is what you want, so have at it.

Dramatics do not make your points anymore valid. Then again I am pretty sure it won't be the Swiss who will resort to violence or threats of violence over this issue.

 

[DarkThinker]

They were killing each other long before Western nations became involved which was about the time the Ottoman Empire fell due to the fact that they backed the wrong side during WW1.

Not really just because of that, the Ottoman empire fell from within first because Arabs got sick of being frozen in time for over 500 years, while the Turks were improving their homeland in every way possible on the Arab's expense. And hence why Turkey is so much ahead Arabic countries even today.

The French and the British promised the Arabs a united Arab state if they fight the Ottomans. So the Arabs did, but were rewarded with western occupation instead of liberation. Guess who backstabbed the Arabs/Muslims then proceeded to support dictators in almost every state? You got it, the good ole freedom promising West. Aaaah now the the picture just got a bit clearer didn't it?

Who still supports and finances dictators across the Middle-East the Muslims or the West?

Husni Mubarak has been the president of Egypt for 40 years and is soon to handoff the presidency to his son for another 40 years. Who supports him against the will of the Egyptian people? You got it we do. Who supports the house of Saud? We did.

Who planted Israel in the middle of Palestine? The Brits did. Who has financed Israel since it's inception and allowed it to gobble up Arab land and kill Arab civilians? We did.

Yet all the blame ends up on the Muslims somehow because they can't find a way to move forward so they turn to extremism?

When do people turn to extremism? When life is comfortable and freedom is all over the place? Or when they are kept in poverty and their rights violated constantly?

 

[JEDIYoda]

Not really just because of that, the Ottoman empire fell from within first because Arabs got sick of being frozen in time for over 500 years, while the Turks were improving their homeland in every way possible on the Arab's expense. And hence why Turkey is so much ahead Arabic countries even today.

The French and the British promised the Arabs a united Arab state if they fight the Ottomans. So the Arabs did, but were rewarded with western occupation instead of liberation. Guess who backstabbed the Arabs/Muslims then proceeded to support dictators in almost every state? You got it, the good ole freedom promising West. Aaaah now the the picture just got a bit clearer didn't it?

Who still supports and finances dictators across the Middle-East the Muslims or the West?

Husni Mubarak has been the president of Egypt for 40 years and is soon to handoff the presidency to his son for another 40 years. Who supports him against the will of the Egyptian people? You got it we do. Who supports the house of Saud? We did.

Who planted Israel in the middle of Palestine? The Brits did. Who has financed Israel since it's inception and allowed it to gobble up Arab land and kill Arab civilians? We did.

Yet all the blame ends up on the Muslims somehow because they can't find a way to move forward so they turn to extremism?

When do people turn to extremism? When life is comfortable and freedom is all over the place? Or when they are kept in poverty and their rights violated constantly?

DarkThinker you need to rethink what you just said...because you are quite wrong!

After Israel became an independent country in 1948, the United States joined an embargo on weapons sales to Israel, the 1949 Tripartite Agreement on weapons. Although the US sold hundreds of millions of dollars in weaponry to Arab states during the 1950s and early 1960s, there were no sales to Israel until 1962 when the US agreed to sell to Israel its first significant American system, the HAWK anti-aircraft missile.

American military involvement with Israel remained sporadic until the 1973 Yom Kippur War. Following an Egyptian refusal to accept a cease-fire and a Soviet military airlift to the Arab states, the Nixon Administration sent a United States airlift of weapons and supplies to Israel enabling her to recover from earlier setbacks. Starting on October 14, 1973 US Air Force "Operation Nickel Grass" flew resupply missions to Israel for a full month.

As a direct result of the Yom Kippur War, the United States quadrupled its foreign aid to Israel, and replaced France as Israel's largest arms supplier. The doctrine of maintaining Israel's "qualitative edge" over its neighbors was born in the war's aftermath. This was based both on US appreciation of Israel's role as a defender of Western values in a generally hostile region, and also on the Cold War calculus of opposing the Arab client states of the Soviet Union.

 

[CanOWorms]

1 = some?

Seriously.. how could ONE getting "radicalized" in Germany become SOME in your book!? Disingenuous and sad attempt there...

"Among that handful were the 15 hijackers who joined the pilots aboard the four airplanes. All but one were from Saudi Arabia"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/04/28/AR2005042801315.html

Several of them were radicalized in Germany. It is disingenuous to blame Saudi Arabia because they were born there. They were made in Germany, just like future terrorists who will attack the US will be made in Switzerland.

 

[tvarad]

Several of them were radicalized in Germany. It is disingenuous to blame Saudi Arabia because they were born there. They were made in Germany, just like future terrorists who will attack the US will be made in Switzerland.

Actually, the Saudi rulers made a devil's pact with their Wahabi religious extremists: don't meddle in the affairs of Saudi Arabia and we'll give you unlimited resources to do whatever you want elsewhere in the world. This was from the late 70s onward and started the wholesale conversion of relatively liberal societies like Pakistan into a hotbed of radical Islamists. Madrassas mushroomed in poor Islamic countries like Pakistan and Indonesia as well as countries with significant muslim populations like India, Phillipines etc.. Saudi oil money was used to preach their austere take-no-prisoners brand of Islam and was the only education inculcated to generations of youth. Add to it Western myopia in encouraging these whackos to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan and leaving them to their devices when that was done. This movement gradually spread to the West and become a prime breeding ground for radicals as there were plenty of confused/disgruntled youth struggling to reconcile their strict Islamic upbringing at home with the liberal mores of Western society at large. By indoctrinating them with hatred to the West and blaming it for all the real and imaginary problems of the Muslims in general and the Middle East with particular emphasis on Israel, they found a ready source shock troops to take their battle into the heart of the West itself.