Switzerland votes whether to ban Muslim Minarets.

[Zebo]

Good post Tvarad. Another factor of Islam redivivus and shrinking from modernism was writings by Sayyid Qutb and many others who argued Muslims post Renaissance weakness was in fact caused by emulation of the West and far East and in fact an unislamic state known as jahiliyyah and Allah had cursed them for it. Further arguing that the only way to restore Muslims to their middle age glory was to reject such as concepts like socialism or nationalism and implement Sharia, and rid the Muslim world of any non-Muslim influences. Seems to be working.

 

[SamurAchzar]

The fear and ignorance in this thread is no different than the fear and ignorance in the ME... the difference is that one group has a high standard of living, basic freedoms, and access to unlimited education, while the other group is kept poor, isolated, and oppressed.

It is sad and pathetic that even with access to unlimited information, the same ignorance and fear runs rampant without any understanding of history or why things have gone down this path... thus ensuring it will continue to go down this path.

Yes, lets continue blaming others for the failures. Please show me how the West, and not collective stupidity, is responsible for the state of Syria, for example. The only thing the West "fucked" them over is supporting Israel. Should hardly influence their sciences, education and economy, right?

 

[ranmaniac]

No your sympathizing with Muslims ranks of out and out stoopidity!
The Muslims are not being oppressed by the west...so get over it!!
Just like the Palestinians the Muslims are their own worse enemy!!!

You try to go all politically correct in your assertions that the Muslims are denied a high standard of living, basic freedoms, and access to unlimited education, while the other group is kept poor, isolated, and oppressed.

What is sad and Pathetic your blatant nievete concerning this whole subject!
In fact you probably believe that every nation on earth should be equal.

Finally I agree with DucatiMonster696 when he says -- These people are visitors/guests in a nation that was willing and kind enough to allow them to enter. If they want to become a part of Swiss society then they should integrate their religious beliefs to be more compatible and less intrusive with the nation which is did them the favor in allowed them to immigrate.

If I may point out these people could have stayed in their own country and tried to change......

PadawanYoda,

To deny that the US, UK, and other western powers, along with the former-Soviet Union, haven't meddled in the affairs of the M.E. and Arab countries, even supporting regimes that have oppressed their own population is naive. Who helped overthrow the democratically elected government of Iran in 1953? Which nations have supported the dividing and carving up of Arab states and continue to support dictators in Saudi, Egypt etc? Who helped Saddam in power, and even gave him chemical weapons to use on Iran? Who sold arms to Iran to use on Iraq? Not every nation on earth can be equal, but perhaps you can have some sense of humanity to understand that selling gasoline to known arsonists doesn't make you any less of a criminal.

 

[tvarad]

PadawanYoda,

To deny that the US, UK, and other western powers, along with the former-Soviet Union, haven't meddled in the affairs of the M.E. and Arab countries, even supporting regimes that have oppressed their own population is naive. Who helped overthrow the democratically elected government of Iran in 1953? Which nations have supported the dividing and carving up of Arab states and continue to support dictators in Saudi, Egypt etc? Who helped Saddam in power, and even gave him chemical weapons to use on Iran? Who sold arms to Iran to use on Iraq? Not every nation on earth can be equal, but perhaps you can have some sense of humanity to understand that selling gasoline to known arsonists doesn't make you any less of a criminal.

At about the same time, the West had countries like Germany, Japan, South Korea et al laid waste by war and could have created serfs out of them; yet they moulded them in the West's image and, despite the threat of industrial competition, they have become full fledged partners. Countries like Singapore and Taiwan and, lately, China and India have become part of the trend towards integrating into the global village. Most of these countries have been heavily meddled in, just like the Middle East. Why is it then that it is the Muslim countries at large and the Middle East in particular that keep whining about it?

 

[Zebo]

Not really just because of that, the Ottoman empire fell from within first because Arabs got sick of being frozen in time for over 500 years, while the Turks were improving their homeland in every way possible on the Arab's expense. And hence why Turkey is so much ahead Arabic countries even today.

The French and the British promised the Arabs a united Arab state if they fight the Ottomans. So the Arabs did, but were rewarded with western occupation instead of liberation. Guess who backstabbed the Arabs/Muslims then proceeded to support dictators in almost every state? You got it, the good ole freedom promising West. Aaaah now the the picture just got a bit clearer didn't it?

Who still supports and finances dictators across the Middle-East the Muslims or the West?

Husni Mubarak has been the president of Egypt for 40 years and is soon to handoff the presidency to his son for another 40 years. Who supports him against the will of the Egyptian people? You got it we do. Who supports the house of Saud? We did.

Who planted Israel in the middle of Palestine? The Brits did. Who has financed Israel since it's inception and allowed it to gobble up Arab land and kill Arab civilians? We did.

Yet all the blame ends up on the Muslims somehow because they can't find a way to move forward so they turn to extremism?

When do people turn to extremism? When life is comfortable and freedom is all over the place? Or when they are kept in poverty and their rights violated constantly?

Is the west still crying about the 1 million white slaves Sultans grabbed from Balkans and east Europe when they were on top? Do you even know about it? Are Blacks still crying about the 1000 year Arab slave trade throughout Africa and changing the complexion of Africa forever? No. The Israel line gets old and it's just one of hundreds of excuses for Muslims to go ape shit. Muslims have a problem with anyone not Muslim or not quite Muslim enough to include the oldest Christians in the world Arab Assyrians faithfully exterminated in two civil wars in Lebanon. The 200,000 or so Algerians for being not quite Muslim enough. The 450,000 ethnic Chinese in Indonesia put down in the 60s. And so on every day in Muslim world same ole shit - killings based on religion and infractions of Islamic law - all trivialities to every civilized culture.

They revert because Islam is radical and uncompromising. Not poverty at all since most terrorists come from the most monied Islamic state around, Saudi Arabia. A place where everyone gets a free house, education, and medical care. And the perps are not idiots but usually college educated and wealthy. Look at the bios of the 9-11 crews not to mention bin Laden & al-Zawahiri.

Making the West out to be the bad guy only works to ignorant westeners. Chinese know better. Russians know better. And about half of Americans know better and growing with each jihad attack not surprisingly.

 

[ranmaniac]

At about the same time, the West had countries like Germany, Japan, South Korea et al laid waste by war and could have created serfs out of them; yet they moulded them in the West's image and, despite the threat of industrial competition, they have become full fledged partners. Countries like Singapore and Taiwan and, lately, China and India have become part of the trend towards integrating into the global village. Most of these countries have been heavily meddled in, just like the Middle East. Why is it then that it is the Muslim countries at large and the Middle East in particular that keep whining about it?

You can't compare South Korea, Germany, Japan etc to the situation in the M.E., it's apples and oranges. There's no Marshall Plan for the Middle east, and it will be quite doubtful that Iraq will be making their own cars even 50 years from now that will rival Toyota, Volkswaggen, or even Hyundai. Germany, Japan, and South Korea had the benefit of economic development and assistance that allowed their nations to prosper. Not to mention that the U.S. has basically provided most of the cost of defense for those nations, so those nations were able to spend most of their resources on their infrastructure and industry. Also leaving those countries to serfdom would have made them a good target for the Soviet Union to meddle in. Economic prosperity, egalitarianism, and development of a strong middle class is a way to thwart extremism, not to mention communism as the Marshall Plan did.

 

[sandorski]

Good to see you have no real rebuttal other then baseless rants.

Also these "oppressed people" are always free to move back to their country of origin.

Of course in reality no one is being oppressed as this is just a way to try to create a notion of victimization out of thin air.

These people are visitors/guests in a nation that was willing and kind enough to allow them to enter. If they want to become a part of Swiss society then they should integrate their religious beliefs to be more compatible and less intrusive with the nation which did them the favor in allowing them to immigrate.

They are not "Guests", they are Citizens and should be treated as such. Which seems to be a Europe wide problem, they allow Immigrants in because they are in dire need of them, but they just can't accept them as Equals. They're trying to have their Cake and Eat it too.

 

[sandorski]

They were killing each other long before Western nations became involved which was about the time the Ottoman Empire fell due to the fact that they backed the wrong side during WW1.

Europe knows far more about Killing each other than the Middle East ever will.

 

[Zebo]

PadawanYoda,

To deny that the US, UK, and other western powers, along with the former-Soviet Union, haven't meddled in the affairs of the M.E. and Arab countries, even supporting regimes that have oppressed their own population is naive. Who helped overthrow the democratically elected government of Iran in 1953? Which nations have supported the dividing and carving up of Arab states and continue to support dictators in Saudi, Egypt etc? Who helped Saddam in power, and even gave him chemical weapons to use on Iran? Who sold arms to Iran to use on Iraq? Not every nation on earth can be equal, but perhaps you can have some sense of humanity to understand that selling gasoline to known arsonists doesn't make you any less of a criminal.

Well admitting they are volatile with the known arsonists line is a first step. The rest is typical self-hate and cultural hate infecting the West currently combined with total ignorance of geopolitics.

Abdul Aziz, when we met him was most powerful man in Saudi Arabia. Intermarrying with the wealthiest families in Arabia and having largest army. It was an absolute monarchy 30 years before USA ever talked to him, we didn't make him he did. As the ruler in Saudi Arabia he asked for protection from those around him and weapons in exchange for oil. Had USA not signed the deal Abdul Aziz had a long long line of suitors around the world who would have been more than happy to make this deal. Same goes for any other circumstance. We won some contracts and concessions and lost some to China, Russia, & Europeans. Simple business. How they use their weapons or despotic influence was their doing not ours. In fact we lobbied Saddam to stop having gay hangings. Lobbied Al- Saud for girls education and for pro democracy reforms (stupidly if you ask me since AQ wins any election there). Lobbied Mubarak similarly. How anyone can blame the tools rather than the people who inappropriately use them is beyond me. What's next Chinese are to blame for supplying rope and Japanese the cranes the mullahs are hanging queers, alcoholics, etc with each week?

 

[shadow9d9]

PadawanYoda,

To deny that the US, UK, and other western powers, along with the former-Soviet Union, haven't meddled in the affairs of the M.E. and Arab countries, even supporting regimes that have oppressed their own population is naive. Who helped overthrow the democratically elected government of Iran in 1953? Which nations have supported the dividing and carving up of Arab states and continue to support dictators in Saudi, Egypt etc? Who helped Saddam in power, and even gave him chemical weapons to use on Iran? Who sold arms to Iran to use on Iraq? Not every nation on earth can be equal, but perhaps you can have some sense of humanity to understand that selling gasoline to known arsonists doesn't make you any less of a criminal.

You can't force education on ignorance.

 

[shadow9d9]

Several of them were radicalized in Germany. It is disingenuous to blame Saudi Arabia because they were born there. They were made in Germany, just like future terrorists who will attack the US will be made in Switzerland.

Citation needed.

 

[shadow9d9]

Dramatics do not make your points anymore valid. Then again I am pretty sure it won't be the Swiss who will resort to violence or threats of violence over this issue.

Your hatred and fear has been around since the beginning of time. It is why we continue to have religious war. You want blood. You get it everyday.

 

[JEDIYoda]

You can't force education on ignorance.

Exactly you cannot force education upon ignorant people like you who would rather see Europe and the US be over taken by what did you call them -- poor, isolated, and oppressed people.......

again I will steal the words of Ducatimonster696-- These people are visitors/guests in a nation that was willing and kind enough to allow them to enter. If they want to become a part of Swiss society then they should integrate their religious beliefs to be more compatible and less intrusive with the nation which is did them the favor in allowed them to immigrate.

 

[tvarad]

You can't compare South Korea, Germany, Japan etc to the situation in the M.E., it's apples and oranges. There's no Marshall Plan for the Middle east, and it will be quite doubtful that Iraq will be making their own cars even 50 years from now that will rival Toyota, Volkswaggen, or even Hyundai. Germany, Japan, and South Korea had the benefit of economic development and assistance that allowed their nations to prosper. Not to mention that the U.S. has basically provided most of the cost of defense for those nations, so those nations were able to spend most of their resources on their infrastructure and industry. Also leaving those countries to serfdom would have made them a good target for the Soviet Union to meddle in. Economic prosperity, egalitarianism, and development of a strong middle class is a way to thwart extremism, not to mention communism as the Marshall Plan did.

All I see is in this post is hand-wringing and excuses. India had no Marshall plan, nor did China and their early leaders were as anti-Western as the Arabs and Muslims and yet, a couple of decades ago, they figured out that it's either swim with the international tide or sink. The latter are still debating whether a cat has to be black or white to catch mice.

If Muslims and Arabs stopped worrying about a little sliver of land called Israel, stopped worrying about how high a minaret or how low a burqa should be or write treatises about whether it's OK to shake hands with an infidel, perhaps they'll find the time to contemplate the size of the hole they've dug themselves into and take the first steps to climb out of it.

 

[JEDIYoda]

These people are visitors/guests in a nation that was willing and kind enough to allow them to enter. If they want to become a part of Swiss society then they should integrate their religious beliefs to be more compatible and less intrusive with the nation which is did them the favor in allowed them to immigrate.
What`s so hard to understand about this concept?

 

[0marTheZealot]

You forget history very quickly. Historically, the West has been under siege by the Islamic Empires. I can think of at least 5 times in the last 1,000 years when Europe was under an existential threat from the Islamic Empires. If something minor, such as the weather or the health of the current ruler were different, we'd be posting this in arabic. So Islam has flourished and rather extravagantly at that. Remember, the great seat of mathematics and science was Arabia for about 800 years while Europe was busy destroying witches, warlocks and other dissidents. So progress, science and all these things are not exclusive to the West.

Look at Germany as a great example. That country was radicalized to a never before seen extent. It took the biggest war in history to bring down Hitler and over 20 years of democracy building to make Germany the country it is today. You think if we installed a puppet dictator that Germany would be in the same position it is today? Look at East Germany as a great counter-example, it languished under Soviet Union. It took 20 years of reunification to bring East Germany to the same level as West Germany. By and large, the Middle East and the Muslim world as a whole has been oppressed by installed dictators. This is the biggest problem.

As for terrorism, any oppressed group will lash out in violence. The Jews did it in the '20s when they bombed London apartment buildings and exploded cars in Tsarist Russia. The Indians did it when they were under colonial rule with the British. Sri Lanka just finished a decades long with their oppressed minority (the Tamils). The Irish just gave up their struggle about a decade ago. So again, terrorism isn't just limited to Islam, just about every major ethnic and religious group is guilty of this.

I think everyone should re-read this as I point out just about everything everyone has been talking about.

 

[shadow9d9]

Exactly you cannot force education upon ignorant people like you who would rather see Europe and the US be over taken by what did you call them -- poor, isolated, and oppressed people.......

again I will steal the words of Ducatimonster696-- These people are visitors/guests in a nation that was willing and kind enough to allow them to enter. If they want to become a part of Swiss society then they should integrate their religious beliefs to be more compatible and less intrusive with the nation which is did them the favor in allowed them to immigrate.

Taken over? Paranoia and fearmongering count as arguments now?

You have a vested interest in Israel that doesn't allow you to view the situation critically.

 

[shadow9d9]

All I see is in this post is hand-wringing and excuses. India had no Marshall plan, nor did China and their early leaders were as anti-Western as the Arabs and Muslims and yet, a couple of decades ago, they figured out that it's either swim with the international tide or sink. The latter are still debating whether a cat has to be black or white to catch mice.

If Muslims and Arabs stopped worrying about a little sliver of land called Israel, stopped worrying about how high a minaret or how low a burqa should be or write treatises about whether it's OK to shake hands with an infidel, perhaps they'll find the time to contemplate the size of the hole they've dug themselves into and take the first steps to climb out of it.

Why should Muslims and Arabs start worrying about Israel when the West obviously hasn't stopped? Why should the US/Europe not be held responsible for invading and creating Israel?

 

[tvarad]

Why should Muslims and Arabs start worrying about Israel when the West obviously hasn't stopped? Why should the US/Europe not be held responsible for invading and creating Israel?

Sigh! Someone should perform a heimlich maneuver on this guy and get the bone called Israel out of his throat.

 

[shadow9d9]

Sigh! Someone should perform a heimlich maneuver on this guy and get the bone called Israel out of his throat.

So, you want to avoid talking about the biggest issue in the ME.. because... what exactly?

 

[tvarad]

So, you want to avoid talking about the biggest issue in the ME.. because... what exactly?

I would dearly love to explain but all that would happen is a circular argument. Troll through various other threads where I've explained that Israel is the excuse, not the reason for the ME mess. Other than that, let's stick to why it's the Muslim and Arab backwardness that's causing reactions like the Swiss vote to ban minarets.

 

[shadow9d9]

I would dearly love to explain but all that would happen is a circular argument. Troll through various other threads where I've explained that Israel is the excuse, not the reason for the ME mess. Other than that, let's stick to why it's the Muslim and Arab backwardness that's causing reactions like the Swiss vote to ban minarets.

I gotcha.. it is cool to invade and conquer, if the west is doing it...

Continue to attack a people and don't be surprised when they respond.

 

[surfsatwerk]

I gotcha.. it is cool to invade and conquer, if the west is doing it...

Continue to attack a people and don't be surprised when they respond.

Leave the god damn Jews alone. Israel exists, build yourself a bridge and get over it.

 

[shadow9d9]

Leave the god damn Jews alone. Israel exists, build yourself a bridge and get over it.

Then expect turmoil for the rest of your lifetime. Continue to marginalize people and they will strike back. You are part of the problem.

I love how it's completely ok to conquer an entire country... but architecture is bad!

 

[tvarad]

I gotcha.. it is cool to invade and conquer, if the west is doing it...

Continue to attack a people and don't be surprised when they respond.

OK, I'll bite. The Swiss shouldn't ban minarets because Israel is occupying Palestine. Now can we move on?