swiftboat part 2

[Ldir]

This is a repost http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2264095

 

[cybrsage]

Originally Posted by dmcowen674
Bush is fortunate to not be in the Hague now.



Bush lied thousands died

What does your sound bite have to do with the Hague?

 

[spacejamz]

This is a repost http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2264095

kinda hard realize they are the same topic though...

article in this OP does mention swift boat once...

 

[Incorruptible]

What does your sound bite have to do with the Hague?

Nothing, its just partisan hackery

 

[Charles Kozierok]

Obama's "you didn't build that" speech was meant to highlight that nobody does anything in a vacuum. That individual success and community success are tied together.

The right threw a hairy tantrum over that, and now are trying to turn it around on Obama over bin Laden, but the problem is that Obama's position on that raid is entirely consistent with what he said in the "you didn't build that" speech. He never claimed that he alone should get credit for this. He gave credit from the start to all of the people who worked together to get bin Laden.

This entire issue is a pure straw man -- the people involved have fabricated a false position and ascribed it to Obama just so they can knock it down.

 

[a777pilot]

Bush lied thousands died.

The Messiah finished many jobs left undone by Bush even though they were under false pretenses by Bush.

Bush is fortunate to not be in the Hague now.

I keep asking this and no one that leans to the left will answer: Just what lies did Bush(43) tell?

 

[a777pilot]

Obama's "you didn't build that" speech was meant to highlight that nobody does anything in a vacuum. That individual success and community success are tied together.

The right threw a hairy tantrum over that, and now are trying to turn it around on Obama over bin Laden, but the problem is that Obama's position on that raid is entirely consistent with what he said in the "you didn't build that" speech. He never claimed that he alone should get credit for this. He gave credit from the start to all of the people who worked together to get bin Laden.

This entire issue is a pure straw man -- the people involved have fabricated a false position and ascribed it to Obama just so they can knock it down.

You just might to review that speech and count the number of times he said "I" and talked about himself.

 

[Generator]

This is a clever bit of political hackery considering the comment from Obama about people didn't build their businesses. Bin Laden death is a strength turn against Obama. Lets not forget that only a few weeks later a whole chopper of seals was shot down in Afghanistan.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

You just might to review that speech and count the number of times he said "I" and talked about himself.

The speech is here.

I count a total of 15 uses of "I", "me" or "my", and 86 uses of "we", "us" or "our".

Obama's speech was entirely inclusive. And this effort is shameful.

 

[blankslate]

Guess that means Churchill and Roosevelt supported gulags and the mass slaughter of their own people. Durrr.... You DO realize the Secretary of State's job is to meet with foreign leaders - which involves shaking their hand. No? Well now you do. Idiot.

Yet another stupid example of false equivalence. This stupid talking point you bring up doesn't stand in the face of facts.

What led to the Allies coming together was an existential threat to them presented by Germany, Japan and Italy. Of course everyone knows that an attack on Pearl Harbor led to the U.S. joining the Allies.

When the U.S. was under attack from Japan the ally of Germany who was aggressive toward Russia the U.S. never really had a luxury to contemplate Russia's human rights violations.



What makes the Donald Rumsfeld photo different from the the photo of Allied Nations Leaders was the fact that the U.S. was not attacked by anyone during the Iraq-Iran war.

We were involved in a cold war and our support for Iraq was because we thought that Iraq would be a way to counterbalance a Soviet Influence in the middle-east derived from its support of Iran. (That's another subject that could be brought up that might give you a conniption fit)

By the 80's the cold war was a stalemate neither the NATO nations or members of the Waraw Pact wanted to get involved in war because of the threat of mutually assured destruction from an abundance of nuclear weapons.



In fact it was Iraq who initiated the Iran-Iraq war which a large scale invasion of Iran. It was Iraq who used chemical weapons. There isn't much solid evidence of Iran using chemical weapons in the conflict, if any at all.

Coincidentally Rumsfelds photo with Saddam took place after Iran had accused Iraq of using chemical weapons.

Neither Iran or Iraq have military allies throughout the conflict who got directly involved in the fighting. They both received military hardware from Russia and the U.S. and some intelligence but no other nations participated in the actual fighting.

Seeing as how the U.S. wasn't involved in a hot war that threatened the the U.S., as well as who initiated the conflicts in both cases....
I think F.D.R. gets a pass his photo. Rumsfeld? Not so much


I'm sure you meant that post to be clever but reading it was like being exposed to the inane rantings of a little kid who is barely able to think critically but thinks they're the smartest person in the room. You must be capable of posting something of more substance.

Too bad you have to resort to personal attacks.
However, it's not surprising considering how you have misquoted someone in an effort to twist their words at least once in the past.

 

[cybrsage]

Obama's "you didn't build that" speech was meant to highlight that nobody does anything in a vacuum. That individual success and community success are tied together.

He did not even imply individual success is due to any hard work on the part of the successful person. In fact, his own speaches show he considers success to be based on luck. Since luck is how he became successful, he projects this onto everyone else.

One month to the day after his infamous ‘you didn’t build that’ speech, President Obama’s description of wealthy people did not include “smart” or “hardworking,” as he instead ascribed their success to good luck.
“If you’re lucky enough, and fortunate enough, and been blessed enough to be in the other two percent, the top two percent, you still get a tax cut for your first $250,000 of income,” Obama said during a campaign stop in Council Bluffs, Iowa. “All we’re saying is after that, maybe you can do a little bit more to help pay down this deficit and invest in things like education that help our economy grow.”
Obama avoided the cringe-inducing soundbite, but his remarks echoed the sense of his “you didn’t build that” speech in Virginia.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/you-d...y-are-lucky-blessed-fortunate/article/2504776


His exact phrase:

If you’ve got a business — you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen.

If the business owner did not build his business, who built it? Nobody else made his business happen. I realize he was trying to minimize the effect of hard work, etc., by effectively saying it takes a village. But he is wrong. A privately owned company is built by the person who owns it, not somebody else. Even if we assume he was talking about the bridges and roads, Obama is still an idiot for thinking businesses did not exist until a goverment built a bridge or road. Hogwash.

 

[thraashman]

The speech is here.

I count a total of 15 uses of "I", "me" or "my", and 86 uses of "we", "us" or "our".

Obama's speech was entirely inclusive. And this effort is shameful.

Impressive ownage there Charles. I believe this is what we call beating them at their own game.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

He did not even imply individual success is due to any hard work on the part of the successful person.

This is, of course, a lie. In the same speech he specifically said that success is based on both individual and community effort.

If the business owner did not build his business, who built it?

The comment "you didn't build that" doesn't refer to the business. It refers to the infrastructure mentioned in the preceding sentences that you've deliberately omitted.

This issue has been discussed at length already and I see no point in rehashing it. Regardless of what was in that speech, it doesn't apply to the bin Laden raid. Obama never tried to take credit for that.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Bush lied thousands died

How many thousands would have died without his intervention?

What was the track record?

Or are you just a parrot

 

[cybrsage]

Out of curiosity (asked of those who just watched the video), how many of those uses of "we" did Obama include himself in the group who actually did the fighting?

I saw pics of Obama at the compound, personally taking out Bin Laden with a golf club no less, but I am not sure they were legit...

 

[cybrsage]

This is, of course, a lie. In the same speech he specifically said that success is based on both individual and community effort.



The comment "you didn't build that" doesn't refer to the business. It refers to the infrastructure mentioned in the preceding sentences that you've deliberately omitted.

This issue has been discussed at length already and I see no point in rehashing it. Regardless of what was in that speech, it doesn't apply to the bin Laden raid. Obama never tried to take credit for that.

Already covered that. If you are correct that means he feels that business cannot exist without government built roads and bridges. Stupid position to hold.

 

[thraashman]

Already covered that. If you are correct that means he feels that business cannot exist without government built roads and bridges. Stupid position to hold.

Well, first, he is correct in what Obama meant. You're wrong, but we've also covered how you're the most consistently wrong person in P&N (though there's a couple lately trying their hardest to win that title from you). Second, it isn't that business can't exist it's that it can't thrive the way it does. That position is completely true. It's why Somalia isn't known as a business Mecca.

 

[cybrsage]

Ok, fair enough. How about I see your Saddam and I raise you a Kim Jung Il?

Wow, they are not just shaking hands like normal people do when they meet, they are actually drinking champaigne together.

EDIT: Just so the youngsters know, that is President Clinton's Secretary of State.

 

[CitizenKain]

Looks like the special ops community is fed up with Obama taking credit where credit is not due.

Is there a reason I should care what a bunch of liars have to say about something they didn't have anything to do with?

 

[kage69]

I'm baffled as to why so many Obama haters are hellbent on showing everyone how much they didn't comprehend Obama's comments regarding 'building that.'

It's clear the GOP is very worried about Obama's successes against AQ, they are doing anything they can to maintain the faulty stereotype of Dems being unable to handle national defense issues - even if it means making themselves look like petulant kids. Again.

 

[PJABBER]

Is there a reason I should care what a bunch of liars have to say about something they didn't have anything to do with?

Stayin' classy there, citizen.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

Stayin' classy there, citizen.

How "classy" do you think it is to engage in character assassination based on a lie?

Or to promote that character assassination?

Anyone can read Obama's speech and see quite clearly that he never took credit for more than his role as CiC in the raid.

 

[nextJin]

How many Americans would have died without his intervention?

What was the track record?

Or are you just a parrot

Fixed and the number is 0 in Iraq likely less than what we have in the Ghan atm due to 100% focus being on that shit hole.

 

[blankslate]

Add another thing to President Clinton's record of things I didn't like.

However, it probably allowed President Clinton to convince Kim Jong Il to release two U.S. reporters who had allegedly snuck in to North Korea a few years ago.

What did Rumfeld's visit to Iraq get us?

well?

Let's see....

Over a trillion dollars wasted in Iraq.

Over 100k civilians dead from collateral damage and the violence that ensued from the occupation by some counts. (the lower numbers are still in the 10's of thousands).

A more skeptical view of U.S. foreign policy from our allies.

Not to mention what that added to the debt that conservatives like to have a fit over, whenever a program is suggested to improve the infra-structure or add more jobs to the economy.


Now tell us honestly, do you think any future President will ask President G.W. Bush to go on a sensitive foreign relations mission (official or not) when an incident involving American civilians takes place?

C'mon don't bullshit us now...

 

[Atreus21]

This is, of course, a lie. In the same speech he specifically said that success is based on both individual and community effort.



The comment "you didn't build that" doesn't refer to the business. It refers to the infrastructure mentioned in the preceding sentences that you've deliberately omitted.

This issue has been discussed at length already and I see no point in rehashing it. Regardless of what was in that speech, it doesn't apply to the bin Laden raid. Obama never tried to take credit for that.

And yet it's being rehashed.

Obama's speech was silly in that his corrosive, subjective logic can be used to denigrate any individual achievement, and to undermine the whole notion of individualism in the first place. Furthermore it's unfair. A businessman who succeeds due to his drive can be smugly discredited by claiming he didn't do it on his own, yet those who don't succeed are, of course, singularly responsible for their loss.

If we're going to allow businesses to fail, which we should, we might at least have the decency to give them 95% of the credit when they succeed.

When assigning credit for an achievement, give it to those who made the largest sacrifice to its fruition.