swiftboat part 2

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monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,444
1
0
You don't know the definition of Chickenhawk then...

A few notable members of President Bush's administration found ways to not go over to Vietnam. Then decades later were pushing for war in a country that really didn't have any modern WMD program despite their claims to the contrary. Some people would say they lied about it.

Chicken Hawks.


President Obama supported the war in Afghanistan. Bin Laden was based their during 9/11 after all
But he didn't support the Iraqi invasion.

He hasn't been an across the board supporter of military action in all cases. And he wasn't old enough to be subject to the draft for Vietnam.

The only logical conclusion is that your post is an example of the subject brought up in this thread.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2263545

Saying President Obama is a chicken hawk because he's like certain members of President Bush's former administration is false equivalency and rank intellectual dishonesty, because the comparison can't be made without ignoring certain facts.

How about Biden? You know Vice-fucking-President Biden ?

JKing106 also made the claim about the ENTIRE staff under Bush..... intellectual dishonesty is contained in your lying post supporting JKing.
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,153
0
0
Wow, so much fail it's hard to ignore the stench of desperation. Cheney never authorized Scooter Libby to leak classified information to the media. Richard Armitage, the anti-war lion of the anti-war State Department, gave Ms Plame's name to Robert Novak. Ms Plame was an analyst, NOT an agent; her employment with the CIA was widely known. (Just the fact that Ms Plame, wife of a middle level State Department, had ever been even a handler of agents shows how incompetent our CIA can be.) Libby was prosecuted NOT for divulging Plame's name, but for denying he remembered a conversation with Novak and specifically for denying remembering that when presented by Novak with Plame's name, he confirmed that she was indeed the one responsible for sending her husband to verify her own conclusions. Libby could not be prosecuted for divulging her name as Fitzgerald had already determined that Plame was not a protected covert operative. However, lying about it is a different matter. Just as with Clinton's perjury, lying to a federal special prosecutor investigating a potential crime - even if it turns out, as in this case, that there was no actual crime - is still obstruction of justice. A jury agreed and convicted Libby. But again, the jury convicted Libby not for the conversation, which had already been determined was not a crime, but for lying about it. (Evidently not remembering is a privilege reserved for Democrats.)

Some important factual corrections, but lots of fail here as well. While Armitage was the first to reveal Plame's identity to Novak, Libby revealed it to 2 other reporters as well, in addition to Novak. This wasn't one conversation in which it just happened to come up. It was a pattern.

He also discussed Plame's identity with Karl Rove, who himself discussed it with reporters. Apparently Libby was chit chatting with a lot of people about Plame around that time.

In addition to obstruction of justice, Libby was also convicted of perjury, for repeatedly lying under oath. The significance of your omission is that it implies he merely lied while under questioning by authorities. He also lied to the grand jury after being sworn. No less than Clinton, as you point out, who so far as I'm concerned, was an lying PoS, yet nothing Clinton did could possibly justify this. The two are unrelated.

Also, while Plame was functioning in the states as an analyst at the time of the affair, she had been undercover on and off for her career. This was not a simple case of analyst versus field agent, and that ambiguity is what led to the prosecutor punting on whether the leak was legal or not, particularly as he was able to get convictions for perjury and obstruction.

The biggest problem here, however, is this:

Cheney never authorized Scooter Libby to leak classified information to the media.

And how pray tell do you know this? Because Scooter Libby, who lied under oath, said so, or because Cheney did? Libby admitted that he first learned about Plame from Cheney himself. Furthermore, no one disputes that Cheney was angry about Joe Wilson's report of his fact finding mission to Niger. Do we know for a fact that Cheney authorized it? No, of course not. He of course didn't speak directly to the reporters and neither he nor Libby have admitted that he authorized it. He certainly could never have been convicted of it beyond reasonable doubt. However, acknowledging that is a far cry from affirmatively stating his innocence as a given fact.

I think it's instructive to compare this sort of perspective that you offer on Cheney's relation to the Plame affair with how conservatives in general are willing to overreach to the point of absurdity with Fast and Furious, going to so far as to claim that not only was Obama directly involved, but to insert the made up, evidence free, conspiracy theory that this "gun walking," which was probably only done once and not with the guns that killed the border agent, was conceived as an excuse for gun control laws that this administration has never pushed before, during OR after. How many layers were there between Obama and the field agents in Arizona, and how many layers were there between Libby and Cheney?

This is what we call an evidentiary double standard to say the least.

- wolf
 
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blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,775
556
126
How about Biden? You know Vice-fucking-President Biden ?

I'll see your vice-fucking-President Biden http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/sep/01/bidens-draft-deferments-equal-cheneys-during-vietn/
According to the documents, Mr. Biden, 65, received several deferments while he was an undergraduate at the University of Delaware and later as a law student at Syracuse University.
A month after undergoing a physical exam in April 1968, Mr. Biden received a Selective Service classification of 1-Y, meaning he was available for service only in the event of national emergency.
“As a result of a physical exam on April 5, 1968, Joe Biden was classified 1-Y and disqualified from service because of asthma as a teenager,” said David Wade, a campaign spokesman.
with a fucking VP Dick Cheney http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/01/politics/campaign/01CHEN.html?pagewanted=all
Away from the hearing room, he told the Washington Post that he had sought his deferments because "I had other priorities in the 60's than military service."
And raise it with a Secretary of fucking Defense Donald Rumsfeld.
handshake300.jpg

^oh look here he is

I'll throw in a Deputy fucking Secretary of fucking Defense Paul Wolfowitz since he also got a deferment and was a supporter of PNAC.

JKing106 also made the claim about the ENTIRE staff under Bush..... intellectual dishonesty is contained in your lying post supporting JKing

*I* said "Afew notable members of President Bush's administration found ways to not go over to Vietnam."

in response to your assertion
Yeah, like Obama.

That's a lie if I ever heard one. Especially in light of the fact that President Bush himself had a cushy Air National Guard gig that virtually guaranteed that he wouldn't be sent to Vietnam, while President Obama wasn't old enough to serve before that conflict ended.

You calling me out for a
lying post

Man, talk about overreaching. Must be nice bro, whatever fantasy-land you call home, must be nice.
 
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Farang

Lifer
Jul 7, 2003
10,913
3
0
I don't get the comparisons to "Mission Accomplished." Obama announcing the bin Laden raid is only comparable if bin Laden shows up on "Good Morning America" the next day.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Given that the goal of the Swift Boaters were achieved. I'm not very much interested in prioritizing my time to devote hours of research to this subject.

I'm sure that your viewpoint regarding Kerry would actually have facts that support it if researched diligently so I'll take your word on the matter.

However, if you expect me to hold these swift boaters in high regard about to their choice to support a person who had a relatively cushy Air National Guard assignment over a person who actually was in a combat zone... well, that won't happen.
I would not ask that. I would point out that the Swift Boat vets were in the same war zone, for full (sometimes multiple) deployments.

Some important factual corrections, but lots of fail here as well. While Armitage was the first to reveal Plame's identity to Novak, Libby revealed it to 2 other reporters as well, in addition to Novak. This wasn't one conversation in which it just happened to come up. It was a pattern.

He also discussed Plame's identity with Karl Rove, who himself discussed it with reporters. Apparently Libby was chit chatting with a lot of people about Plame around that time.

In addition to obstruction of justice, Libby was also convicted of perjury, for repeatedly lying under oath. The significance of your omission is that it implies he merely lied while under questioning by authorities. He also lied to the grand jury after being sworn. No less than Clinton, as you point out, who so far as I'm concerned, was an lying PoS, yet nothing Clinton did could possibly justify this. The two are unrelated.

Also, while Plame was functioning in the states as an analyst at the time of the affair, she had been undercover on and off for her career. This was not a simple case of analyst versus field agent, and that ambiguity is what led to the prosecutor punting on whether the leak was legal or not, particularly as he was able to get convictions for perjury and obstruction.

The biggest problem here, however, is this:



And how pray tell do you know this? Because Scooter Libby, who lied under oath, said so, or because Cheney did? Libby admitted that he first learned about Plame from Cheney himself. Furthermore, no one disputes that Cheney was angry about Joe Wilson's report of his fact finding mission to Niger. Do we know for a fact that Cheney authorized it? No, of course not. He of course didn't speak directly to the reporters and neither he nor Libby have admitted that he authorized it. He certainly could never have been convicted of it beyond reasonable doubt. However, acknowledging that is a far cry from affirmatively stating his innocence as a given fact.

I think it's instructive to compare this sort of perspective that you offer on Cheney's relation to the Plame affair with how conservatives in general are willing to overreach to the point of absurdity with Fast and Furious, going to so far as to claim that not only was Obama directly involved, but to insert the made up, evidence free, conspiracy theory that this "gun walking," which was probably only done once and not with the guns that killed the border agent, was conceived as an excuse for gun control laws that this administration has never pushed before, during OR after. How many layers were there between Obama and the field agents in Arizona, and how many layers were there between Libby and Cheney?

This is what we call an evidentiary double standard to say the least.

- wolf
I went back and reviewed the wiki on this before responding. I see mention of Libby confirming her identity to Matt Cooper and Judith Miller, but again, this is Libby being contacted by reporters who already knew her name. From their testimony, his response was "Yes, I heard that too." He was convicted of perjury because the jury did not believe he would not remember these conversations - which I pointed out. If you believe that a woman sending her husband to Niger to "confirm" her information - a fact-finding mission no one but her asked for - should continue to enjoy immunity from disclosure whilst she and her husband make political points from the supposed information, we'll just have to agree to disagree. If you believe that a woman can work openly for the CIA as an analyst and somehow preserve her "undercover" status - well, it's a free world, and people are free to believe any number of foolish things.

As for Fast and Furious, I supported Obama AND Holder right up until Obama declared the entire federal government was his private defense team. When I'm totally engulfed in smoke, I give up arguing there's no evidence of a fire. I want to be fair, not stupid. Had Cheney and Bush declared that the entire federal government was off limits, stopping the investigation just as Obama killed the investigation into Fast and Furious, then I would have concluded that Cheney and/or Bush was behind the disclosure.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
I'll see your vice-fucking-President Biden http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/sep/01/bidens-draft-deferments-equal-cheneys-during-vietn/
with a fucking VP Dick Cheney http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/01/politics/campaign/01CHEN.html?pagewanted=allAnd raise it with a Secretary of fucking Defense Donald Rumsfeld.
handshake300.jpg

^oh look here he is

I'll throw in a Deputy fucking Secretary of fucking Defense Paul Wolfowitz since he also got a deferment and was a supporter of PNAC.



*I* said "Afew notable members of President Bush's administration found ways to not go over to Vietnam."

in response to your assertion


That's a lie if I ever heard one. Especially in light of the fact that President Bush himself had a cushy Air National Guard gig that virtually guaranteed that he wouldn't be sent to Vietnam, while President Obama wasn't old enough to serve before that conflict ended.

You calling me out for a

Man, talk about overreaching. Must be nice bro, whatever fantasy-land you call home, must be nice.
Given that Donald Rumsfeld was ten during the last World War II draft and thirty-seven during the first Vietnam draft, one is hard-pressed to imagine how he managed to get even one deferment.

I should also point out that Rumsfeld actually IS a veteran - he served in the Navy.
 

OrByte

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
9,303
144
106
He's basically saying that he acted in his role as Commander in chief to instruct the CIA and other intelligence agencies to gather information that would lead to Bin Laden.

Funny how the editor of your link only shows a segment of the news conference that has the most usage of the word I. Instead of a longer clip found here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzD1ecqVBZY

In which after President Obama says "Today, at my direction..."

Notice that when he describes the actual operation there is no use of the word "I"

The next paragraphs have more instances of President Obama using the word We rather than the word "I"

the transcript of the speech is here.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2011/05/02/remarks-president-osama-bin-laden

In case you don't trust them

Fox News has a transcript as well.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/05/02/transcript-obama-announces-killing-bin-laden/

It's funny how someone who styles himself as a humble libertarian only shows the excerpt of a press announcement that contains the most uses of the first person personal pronoun in the shortest period of time.

It makes President Obama look like he constantly used the words "I" throughout the speech when in actuality he's using the words Us or We much more often.

If you actually search the terms in google chrome <space>I<space> and <space>We<space> with ctrl + F, the "we" is used over thirty times and the word "i" is used at most 15 times.


That definitely falls under the category of showing a segment without the context of a whole speech. :hmm:

In my opinion the editor of that video made the equivalent of a troll post If he really had a valid point why not show 7+ minutes of the press conferences from both of the Presidents instead of selected clips?

Based on the link you provided then comparing it to the links that are available that show a more complete picture of President Obama's statements; this humble libertarian needs to pick another adjective to describe himself.

TLDR: Way to go picking the link that distorts the President's speech in which the death of Bin Laden was announced.

Great Post!

Obama never took credit for anything beyond his area of responsibility:

Making decisions as Commander in Chief

period.

PJABBER has a truthiness problem, I wouldn't expect him to acknowledge your rebuttal outlined above. Being obtuse and lying by omission is an art perfected by him and his kind, INCLUDING his linked source.

these "swiftboat" tactics are ridiculously transparent and probably will backfire considering the popularity of the feat of killing OBL.
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,153
0
0
I went back and reviewed the wiki on this before responding. I see mention of Libby confirming her identity to Matt Cooper and Judith Miller, but again, this is Libby being contacted by reporters who already knew her name. From their testimony, his response was "Yes, I heard that too." He was convicted of perjury because the jury did not believe he would not remember these conversations - which I pointed out. If you believe that a woman sending her husband to Niger to "confirm" her information - a fact-finding mission no one but her asked for - should continue to enjoy immunity from disclosure whilst she and her husband make political points from the supposed information, we'll just have to agree to disagree. If you believe that a woman can work openly for the CIA as an analyst and somehow preserve her "undercover" status - well, it's a free world, and people are free to believe any number of foolish things.

If you read the full wiki, then you know that it is disputed whether Plame actually requested that her husband go to Niger, or was merely involved as a go between to convey the request to him.

As for her status, it's a fact that she was undercover and abroad at many times during her career, interspersed with her acting as an analyst stat side. Her identity as a CIA analyst was one of those grey areas between formally classified and not, where discussing it publicly was considered irresponsible. You can criticize the CIA for this, but that's the way it was.

One has to wonder, though, why there was so much discussion between so many administration officials both with the press, and among each other, including with those like Rove who had no need to know, about Plame in particular. Because she supposedly requested that her husband go on this mission? But wait, Joe Wilson's findings were correct. What Bush said in the SOU address WAS false. So why was it relevant if Plame requested it or not? Why were they not concerned about the truth of the matter that Wilson investigated but only the procedural details of how the investigation got under way? Do you understand why a reasonable person would conclude that this smacks of retaliation?

As for Fast and Furious, I supported Obama AND Holder right up until Obama declared the entire federal government was his private defense team. When I'm totally engulfed in smoke, I give up arguing there's no evidence of a fire. I want to be fair, not stupid. Had Cheney and Bush declared that the entire federal government was off limits, stopping the investigation just as Obama killed the investigation into Fast and Furious, then I would have concluded that Cheney and/or Bush was behind the disclosure.

Before looking at F&F from the top down, you should first look at what did and did not happen at the ground level. There's a paper trail of it. If what really happened there isn't all that incriminating, it's difficult to infer much of a conspiracy at the top level.

There were 2 types of so-called "gun walking" going on. The first was the passive type. They knew that firearms were being legally sold by American dealers to people who they believed were suspicious of transferring them to the cartels, either because they had criminal records (which did not preclude the purchases), and/or because they didn't seem to have the financial means to carry out such large purchases. There is a paper trail of the ATF repeatedly urging the AUSA in Arizona to permit arrest of these people and seizure of the guns, as they could not make such arrests without authorization from the federal prosecutor.

They were told over and over again that they did not have probable cause to arrest them because the purchases were legal and they had no concrete proof of criminal intent, only vague suspicions based on circumstance. Under the circumstances, they had no other choice but to take down the serial numbers of these weapons, and track them to see if they showed up somewhere else in a criminal context, which they then could use to implicate the purchaser. This was not their first resort or method of choice but rather the only method open to them. They tried some other things like wiretapping some of their phones, BTW, which was ongoing at the time the scandal broke, but it wasn't working.

While the AUSA's who instructed them not to arrest were also part of the DoJ, the trouble is that what they told the ATF was legally correct. Indeed, they did not have probable cause to arrest the suspicious people who had made legal purchases.

The second type is the one that critics have chosen to characterize as the nature of F&F, a so-called sting operation where the ATF actually sets up a sale to a suspicious person. It's a relevant distinction, because in that situation, the guns would never have found their way to the cartel without the ATF. The trouble is that only happened once, late in the process, and it involved 3 guns none of which have been tied to a killing. The death of Agent Terry was by a gun that was sold by a dealer to the a straw purchaser which was not set up by the ATF. The ATF was tipped off about it by the dealer 3 days after the sale, when the guns were almost certainly already in Mexico. But even if they weren't, the ATF had no remedy but to take down the serial numbers and track the guns. The suspicion that the dealer had about the buyer had something to do with him being a known meth addict. That isn't enough to make an arrest for purchasing guns legally with an alleged intent to transfer them to a Mexican cartel.

Knowing what happened at the ground level here is important, because it puts in perspective the role of people like Holder. Even if he had been briefed about F&F in some manner, as with the 1000+ other law enforcement operations going on under the auspices of the DoJ, it's exceedingly unlikely he knew about any intentional gun walking, which was an isolated case which happened very late in the process. I'm sure he knew in general that the ATF had for years, and not only under F&F but many other operations, been tracking serial numbers of guns purchased by people they believed were suspicious but could not arrest, but this is hardly controversial.

The one operation that involved intentional gun walking, a tiny part of F&F and a rogue operation until it was authorized by a mid level ATF person a month after the fact, isn't something Holder likely knew about, and indeed there is no proof he did. He probably forgot about what he was briefly told about F&F because the information was unremarkable and not cause for concern. Indeed, there really wasn't much that WAS cause for concern. That's why whatever happened at the top, and the witch hunting going on, is more smoke than fire.

- wolf
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
If you read the full wiki, then you know that it is disputed whether Plame actually requested that her husband go to Niger, or was merely involved as a go between to convey the request to him.

As for her status, it's a fact that she was undercover and abroad at many times during her career, interspersed with her acting as an analyst stat side. Her identity as a CIA analyst was one of those grey areas between formally classified and not, where discussing it publicly was considered irresponsible. You can criticize the CIA for this, but that's the way it was.

One has to wonder, though, why there was so much discussion between so many administration officials both with the press, and among each other, including with those like Rove who had no need to know, about Plame in particular. Because she supposedly requested that her husband go on this mission? But wait, Joe Wilson's findings were correct. What Bush said in the SOU address WAS false. So why was it relevant if Plame requested it or not? Why were they not concerned about the truth of the matter that Wilson investigated but only the procedural details of how the investigation got under way? Do you understand why a reasonable person would conclude that this smacks of retaliation?



Before looking at F&F from the top down, you should first look at what did and did not happen at the ground level. There's a paper trail of it. If what really happened there isn't all that incriminating, it's difficult to infer much of a conspiracy at the top level.

There were 2 types of so-called "gun walking" going on. The first was the passive type. They knew that firearms were being legally sold by American dealers to people who they believed were suspicious of transferring them to the cartels, either because they had criminal records (which did not preclude the purchases), and/or because they didn't seem to have the financial means to carry out such large purchases. There is a paper trail of the ATF repeatedly urging the AUSA in Arizona to permit arrest of these people and seizure of the guns, as they could not make such arrests without authorization from the federal prosecutor.

They were told over and over again that they did not have probable cause to arrest them because the purchases were legal and they had no concrete proof of criminal intent, only vague suspicions based on circumstance. Under the circumstances, they had no other choice but to take down the serial numbers of these weapons, and track them to see if they showed up somewhere else in a criminal context, which they then could use to implicate the purchaser. This was not their first resort or method of choice but rather the only method open to them. They tried some other things like wiretapping some of their phones, BTW, which was ongoing at the time the scandal broke, but it wasn't working.

While the AUSA's who instructed them not to arrest were also part of the DoJ, the trouble is that what they told the ATF was legally correct. Indeed, they did not have probable cause to arrest the suspicious people who had made legal purchases.

The second type is the one that critics have chosen to characterize as the nature of F&F, a so-called sting operation where the ATF actually sets up a sale to a suspicious person. It's a relevant distinction, because in that situation, the guns would never have found their way to the cartel without the ATF. The trouble is that only happened once, late in the process, and it involved 3 guns none of which have been tied to a killing. The death of Agent Terry was by a gun that was sold by a dealer to the a straw purchaser which was not set up by the ATF. The ATF was tipped off about it by the dealer 3 days after the sale, when the guns were almost certainly already in Mexico. But even if they weren't, the ATF had no remedy but to take down the serial numbers and track the guns. The suspicion that the dealer had about the buyer had something to do with him being a known meth addict. That isn't enough to make an arrest for purchasing guns legally with an alleged intent to transfer them to a Mexican cartel.

Knowing what happened at the ground level here is important, because it puts in perspective the role of people like Holder. Even if he had been briefed about F&F in some manner, as with the 1000+ other law enforcement operations going on under the auspices of the DoJ, it's exceedingly unlikely he knew about any intentional gun walking, which was an isolated case which happened very late in the process. I'm sure he knew in general that the ATF had for years, and not only under F&F but many other operations, been tracking serial numbers of guns purchased by people they believed were suspicious but could not arrest, but this is hardly controversial.

The one operation that involved intentional gun walking, a tiny part of F&F and a rogue operation until it was authorized by a mid level ATF person a month after the fact, isn't something Holder likely knew about, and indeed there is no proof he did. He probably forgot about what he was briefly told about F&F because the information was unremarkable and not cause for concern. Indeed, there really wasn't much that WAS cause for concern. That's why whatever happened at the top, and the witch hunting going on, is more smoke than fire.

- wolf
As I pointed out, forgetting is reserved for Democrats. In Holder's case, he gets a pass for being caught lying not once, not twice, but three times. Whole lotta forgettin' goin' on there.

For myself, I was perfectly willing to accept that Obama and Holder were innocent right up until Obama shut down the investigation a la Nixon. It's one thing to call an investigation a witch hunt, but when you also shut it down in its tracks, one suspects there really are witches to be found.

EDIT: I'll let you have the last word on the matter since we've gone rather far afield.
 
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woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,153
0
0
As I pointed out, forgetting is reserved for Democrats. In Holder's case, he gets a pass for being caught lying not once, not twice, but three times. Whole lotta forgettin' goin' on there.

For myself, I was perfectly willing to accept that Obama and Holder were innocent right up until Obama shut down the investigation a la Nixon. It's one thing to call an investigation a witch hunt, but when you also shut it down in its tracks, one suspects there really are witches to be found.

EDIT: I'll let you have the last word on the matter since we've gone rather far afield.

Go and read about what actually happened in F&F. There was little if anything to actually cover up here. I'd be disinclined to believe that Holder forgot something, if in fact what he purportedly forgot was something he should have remembered because it would have been a scandal. However, there was no real scandal. You're saying he lied about something which his admitted knowledge of would not have incriminated him. You don't lie about knowing something which would have been seen as benign. It's more likely that he forgot.

Assessing honesty has nothing to do with political party. It has to do with the particulars of the matter at hand. I believed Reagan back in the day when he said he forgot about conversations pertinent to Iran-Contra, because it was plausible under the circumstances. Here, it's more than plausible. Holder presides over a Department with 125,000 employees, dozens of agencies and departments within agencies, and 1000's of ongoing law enforcement operations. He receives who knows how many hundreds of e-mails per day, and who knows how many of these are directly read rather than screened by others, and who knows how many staff meetings he attends on a daily basis where various operations are mentioned and briefed either in vague generalities or with particular details.

If this was something potentially explosive that he had been briefed on, then yes, but this just wasn't. Unless or until there is proof that more went on than the Fortune Magazine investigation, which includes analysis of the ground level paper trail suggests, reveals, I'm going to have a hard time concluding any dishonesty on Holder's part. I actually assumed he lied at first, and have since concluded otherwise. I've gone in the reverse direction as you.

- wolf
 

blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,775
556
126
I would point out that the Swift Boat vets were in the same war zone, for full (sometimes multiple) deployments.

And only one of them as I recall served as a crew member on the same ship as Senator Kerry, and supposedly he was not present during any of the event for which Senator Kerry was recognized with combat medals.

As I've said their service in terms of the negative campaign against a fellow combat veteran who was running against someone who had a relatively cushy position in the Air National Guard earns them no points with me. Maybe you view it differently.

I should also point out that Rumsfeld actually IS a veteran - he served in the Navy.

I stand corrected on that point however, it doesn't change his dickishness in terms of his willingness to serve as a photo op for Saddam Hussein or the fact that he supported PNAC which helped lead to an unnecessary loss of blood and treasure in one war that detracted from a war which we arguably had a reason to engage in.

Not to mention the fact that he was wrong on two aspects of Iraq.

firstly for almost ten years since the 2nd invasion of Iraq there has not been found evidence of a modern WMD program in Iraq. As I recall it the fear mongering which this prick participated in included suggestions that Saddam Hussein was well on his way to developing a nuclear weapons capability. Yeah well we haven't seen evidence of that since Israel took care of the Osirak nuclear facility.

Secondly General Shinseki the highest ranking Army Officer during the lead up to Iraq was suggesting that a much larger force than what Rumsfeld wanted to send would be needed for the invasion and subsequent occupation of Iraq. Paul Wolfowitz and Donald Rumsfeld reject Gen. Shinseki's estimate of the number of troops required.

The fact that a "surge" (a fancy term for escalation) was needed later in Iraq to help quell a conflict between faction in Iraq lends credence Gen. Shinseki's estimate of the troops required.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/15/AR2006111500800.html

In an unusual admission, Abizaid said there should have been more U.S. troops, as well as Iraqi and foreign forces, to stabilize the country immediately after the U.S.-led invasion in March 2003. "General [Eric] Shinseki was right that a greater international force contribution, U.S. force contribution and Iraqi force contribution should have been available immediately after major combat operations," he said.

Abizaid also said the policy of "de-Baathification" of Iraq society introduced in 2003 by then-U.S. Proconsul L. Paul Bremer was too severe.

While his service in the Navy was probably honorable. It doesn't change his dicktarded decisions and positions in the lead up to the 2nd Iraq War. One would think that given Donald Rumsfeld's time in the Navy he might have listened to the advice experience of a General who actually served in combat.

Oh wait I guess that would've stood in the way of PNAC.

My opinion of Donald Rumsfeld is a bit lower than my opinion of the swiftboaters but not by much.
 
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uclaLabrat

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2007
5,632
3,045
136
As if wishy-washy Romney would have ever, in a million years, issued an order to send in the Seals. At the very most he would have bombed the area and we would never know what happened to OBL.

I find it supremely ironic the GOP is so bent out of shape about this supposed security leak when they had no problem at all with Cheney authorizing Scooter Libby to leak classified information to the media for the specific purpose of making a current undercover CIA operative look bad for partisan purposes. Now that was real patriotism!

Surely you jest! Repubs love america! They would never commit an act of treason like outing a covert CIA agent!
 

Arglebargle

Senior member
Dec 2, 2006
892
1
81
The things I wonder about these 'swiftboating' OpSec guys is; who's footing the bill? Following the money is always useful. From what I have read, the organization is incorporated in Delaware, said to have the greatest level of corporate secrecy laws, and the group is organized with some sort of 'social welfare' status, which also allows them to hide their financing.

In the real world, this means they are hiding their financing. And probably have reason to do so.

It's a very Roveian tactic, though it may be Birch-y Koch money doing it, or any number of other connected players.

I am pretty sure they are getting paid real well for it. it's a pretty classic political disinformation campaign.




We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false.
-- William Casey, CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in Democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. Our minds are molded, our tastes are formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of.
&#8211;- Edward Bernays (1891-1995) "Father" of modern public relations (PR) and director of the U.S. Committee on Public Information during World War I, on government propaganda
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
I'll see your vice-fucking-President Biden http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/sep/01/bidens-draft-deferments-equal-cheneys-during-vietn/
with a fucking VP Dick Cheney http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/01/politics/campaign/01CHEN.html?pagewanted=allAnd raise it with a Secretary of fucking Defense Donald Rumsfeld.
handshake300.jpg

^oh look here he is

Oh look:

Yalta_Conference_Churchill_Roosevelt_Stalin.jpg


Guess that means Churchill and Roosevelt supported gulags and the mass slaughter of their own people. Durrr....

You DO realize the Secretary of State's job is to meet with foreign leaders - which involves shaking their hand. No? Well now you do.



Idiot.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
38,660
31,665
136
Oh look:

Yalta_Conference_Churchill_Roosevelt_Stalin.jpg


Guess that means Churchill and Roosevelt supported gulags and the mass slaughter of their own people. Durrr....

You DO realize the Secretary of State's job is to meet with foreign leaders - which involves shaking their hand. No? Well now you do.



Idiot.

Big difference between a meeting on how to set up post-war Germany as opposed to a friendly meeting with at the time was one of our puppets.
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
0
0
Looks like the special ops community is fed up with Obama taking credit where credit is not due.

Looks like they are also fed up with the tidal wave of classified information that has been leaked, compromising intelligence and operations, risking the lives of those charged with protecting our nation.

Looks like they have picked up significant financial backing to tell their story just before the election.

The first film they have produced, Dishonorable Disclosure, addresses problems that have been noted by both Democrats and Republicans and it is a direct indictment of the Obama Adminstration.

Some may call it swift boating, and there are some similarities as that effort, too, was to put a spotlight on lies and misdirection.

This is a story that is told by retired military special operators and clandestine services officers, well qualified to level the criticisms they do.

The video I link below is 22 minutes long. I guarantee you will have a clearer perspective if you take the time to watch it.

Dishonorable Disclosure

The movie Dishonorable Disclosure sends message to Obama: You didn&#8217;t build that

A group of former U.S. intelligence and Special Forces operatives is set to launch a media campaign, including TV ads that scold President Barack Obama for taking credit for the killing of Osama bin Laden and argues that high-level leaks are endangering American lives.

Leaders of the group, the Special Operations OPSEC Education Fund Inc., say it is nonpartisan and unconnected to any political party or presidential campaign. It is registered as a social welfare group, which means its primary purpose is to further the common good and its political activities should be secondary.

In the past, military exploits have been turned against presidential candidates by outside groups, most famously the Swift Boat ads in 2004 that questioned Democratic nominee John Kerry's Vietnam War service.

The OPSEC group says it is not political and aims to save American lives. Its first public salvo is a 22-minute film that can be seen here called Dishonorable Disclosure. The movie includes criticism of Obama and his administration. Some memorable quotes in the film are the following:

"Mr. President, you did not kill Osama bin Laden, America did. The work that the American military has done killed Osama bin Laden. You did not," Ben Smith, identified as a Navy SEAL, says in the film.

"As a citizen, it is my civic duty to tell the president to stop leaking information to the enemy," Smith continues. "It will get Americans killed."

In the film, Scott Taylor, a U.S. Navy SEAL, and a member of Operation Iraqi Freedom, combined the fear of intelligence leaks with the raid of the Osama bin Laden compound thusly:

&#8220;I believe that a ten-year-old would be able to understand that if you disclose how we got (to the Osama bin Laden compound), how we took down the building, what we did, how many people were there, that it&#8217;s going to hinder future operations and certainly hurt the success of those future operations for the DOD (Department of Defense), for the military, intelligence communities, and everyone as a whole.&#8221;

The Obama administration argues that the individuals in this film have no authority to speak on these issues:

An Obama campaign official said: "No one in this group is in a position to speak with any authority on these issues and on what impact these leaks might have, and it's clear they've resorted to making things up for purely political reasons."

Obama has highlighted his foreign policy record on the campaign trail, emphasizing how he presided over the killing of bin Laden, as well as how he ended the war in Iraq and set a timeline for winding down the war in Afghanistan.

However, Obama has come under sharp attack from leading Republican lawmakers who have accused his administration of being behind high-level leaks of classified information. Leading Democrat lawmakers have also expressed shock at the level of leaking that has occurred, but they have not directed accusations at the Obama administration.

Republican lawmakers have pointed to media reports about clandestine drone attacks, informants planted in al Qaeda affiliates and alleged cyber-warfare against Iran that Republicans say were calculated to promote Obama's image as a strong leader in an election year.

The White House has denied leaking classified information.

The president of Special Operations OPSEC Education Fund Inc., Scott Taylor, is a former Navy SEAL who in 2010 ran unsuccessfully for the Republican nomination for a congressional seat in Virginia. Calling itself "OPSEC" for short - which in spy jargon means "operational security" - the anti-leak group incorporated last June in Delaware, a state that has the most secretive corporate registration rules in the U.S.

Several group representatives say their main motivation for setting up OPSEC was dismay at recent detailed media leaks about sensitive operations.

In an interview, Taylor denied OPSEC had any political slant. He described the group as a "watchdog organization" but added that the current administration "has certainly leaked more than others."

OPSEC spokesmen said the group has about $1 million at its disposal and hopes to raise more after the August 15th release of its mini-documentary, entitled "Dishonorable Disclosures," which aims, in spy-movie style, to document a recent spate of leaks regarding sensitive intelligence and military operations.

Fred Rustmann, a former undercover case officer for the CIA who is a spokesman for the group, insisted its focus on leaks was "not a partisan concern." But he said the current administration had been leaking secrets "to help this guy get re-elected, at the expense of peoples' lives.... We want to see that they don't do this again."

Chad Kolton, a former spokesman for the office of Director of National Intelligence during the George W. Bush administration who now represents OPSEC, also said the group's message and make-up are nonpolitical.

"You'll see throughout the film that concern about protecting the lives of intelligence and Special Forces officers takes precedence over partisanship," he said.

Look, Mr. President, if a successful operation was conducted during your administration, you didn&#8217;t get there on your own. We citizens, military personnel, and intelligence communities are always struck by politicians who think that when a successful operation is conducted, well, it must be because they&#8217;re just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there in the military, and in intelligence agencies, who played a greater role in this operation than you did. We&#8217;re tired of politicians thinking that a successful operation was conducted based on one politician thinking that the operation&#8217;s success was based on the fact that that politician worked harder than everybody else. We want to tell you something, Mr. President, there were a whole bunch of hardworking people involved in this operation. (Applause.)

If a successful operation was conducted during your administration, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a multitude of great military minds somewhere in your administration, and in the previous administration, that worked over the space of ten years to bring this operation to fruition. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American military operation that allowed you to thrive. Somebody risked their life to attain intelligence and information. If you&#8217;ve presided over a successful military operation, you didn&#8217;t build that. Somebody else made that happen. This successful operation didn&#8217;t get invented on its own. It didn&#8217;t even start during your administration. The military, the U.S. intelligence community, and even the previous administration created this operation, and they didn't do so for you to create a political talking point.

The point is, is that when operations such as these succeed, they succeed because of number of individuals showing great initiative, but also because they did it together. There are some things, like the initial information gathering missions, the intensive multiplatform surveillance operations, identification of al-Qaeda couriers, receiving information in interrogations (some coercive) and corroborating them, using informants and other information gathering techniques to gain information on the compound, wire-tapping, conducting exercises and learning from operatives on the scene and correcting mistakes based on that information, and selecting the ideal military personnel to conduct such a military offensive, and you don&#8217;t do that on our own Mr. President. I mean, imagine if this civilian president had attempted to take a hands on approach in this operation. (He can&#8217;t even throw a baseball like a fully equipped, adult male.) That would be a hard way to conduct a military operation.

So we say to ourselves, ever since the killing of Osama bin Laden, you know what, there are some things that other people do better. That&#8217;s how we conducted this operation. That&#8217;s how we killed Osama bin Laden. That&#8217;s how our fellow Americans got together to conduct this brilliant operation. That&#8217;s how we conduct all operations. The president, regardless of party, is a member of the civilian population, and we couldn&#8217;t do it without his rubber stamp approval, but the military, the members of the intelligence agencies, and the civilian population rise or fall together as one nation and as one people, and that&#8217;s the reason we&#8217;re speaking out against this President &#8212; because we still believe in America. You&#8217;re not on your own, Mr. President, we&#8217;re in this together. Give credit where credit is due, and quit putting the country in peril for the purpose of winning one election. We know that you&#8217;ll fundamentally disagree with this opinion, but in a country of 315 million people, that is over two hundred years old, no one man, or administration, is so important that we should be willing to put the country at peril to secure his or her re-election.


This post through post #150 have been merged from another thread on this same subject.
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cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
:D He is going to regret that little slip where we got to see what he really thinks about America.
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,410
616
126
Good for them. the leaks coming out of washington are out of hand. send a few to trial for treason to send the message to knock the shit off.