swiftboat part 2

[blankslate]

Incidentally I'm still very supportive of the original Swift Boaters. They forced Kerry to backtrack on several outright lies, including slanderous attacks on his fellow Swift Boaters (e.g. claiming that both other boats fled the area after one boat struck a mine when in fact Kerry's boat was the only boat to flee the area.)

Link please.

nevermind.

http://www.factcheck.org/republican-funded_group_attacks_kerrys_war_record.html

It really depends on who you choose to believe, amongst all the witnesses.

 

[IBMer]

If this does come out in ads it will only backfire on Romney. All they have to do is start running ads where Romney said he we shouldn't go after Osama.

 

[blankslate]

Yeah, like Obama.

You don't know the definition of Chickenhawk then...

A few notable members of President Bush's administration found ways to not go over to Vietnam. Then decades later were pushing for war in a country that really didn't have any modern WMD program despite their claims to the contrary. Some people would say they lied about it.

Chicken Hawks.


President Obama supported the war in Afghanistan. Bin Laden was based their during 9/11 after all
But he didn't support the Iraqi invasion.

He hasn't been an across the board supporter of military action in all cases. And he wasn't old enough to be subject to the draft for Vietnam.

The only logical conclusion is that your post is an example of the subject brought up in this thread.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2263545

Saying President Obama is a chicken hawk because he's like certain members of President Bush's former administration is false equivalency and rank intellectual dishonesty, because the comparison can't be made without ignoring certain facts.

 

[HomerJS]

Lots of references, this is the first one that popped up. It may not be the best one, but, hey, you could have easily done your own search.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGBCMyw1oH0

"I directed Leon Panetta, the director of the CIA, to make the killing or capture of bin Laden the top priority . . . even as I continued our broader effort. . . . Then, after years of painstaking work by my intelligence community I was briefed . . . I met repeatedly with my national security team . . . And finally last week I determined that I had enough intelligence to take action. . . . Today, at my direction . . ."

Yadda, yadda, yadda.

He did give the order/direction to get Bin Laden. If you claim that is taking credit it pales in comparision to "misson accomplished" and Bush landing on an aircraft carrier in that flight suit struting like a peacock.

Here is the president giving full credit where it is due.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjM1B5Uw4cc&feature=related

 

[PJABBER]

He did give the order/direction to get Bin Laden.

George Bush gave the order. Obama took the credit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeVEUNI-Cuo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUXiByDQ3bA&feature=relmfu

 

[werepossum]

Link please.

nevermind.

http://www.factcheck.org/republican-funded_group_attacks_kerrys_war_record.html

It really depends on who you choose to believe, amongst all the witnesses.

Man, that's a muddled "fact check". It vacillates back and forth between two completely separate incidents. But for the record, my charge depends on which John Kerry you believe. In his book, he claimed that when one Swift boat struck a mine, blowing Rassmann out of the stricken boat, the other two Swift boats fled leaving the inured Kerry in his little Boston Whaler to bravely pick up Rassman under withering fire. Kerry was later forced to admit that the other two Swift boats stopped to aid the stricken boat and fire up the banks, that only Kerry fled, and that Rassmann was not blown off the stricken boat as his accounts implies but was in fact on Kerry's boat and was dumped into the water when Kerry slammed his throttle forward to escape the kill zone. Kerry's explanation for his fleeing the scene was to give the larger boats room to maneuver.

I should add that I in no way disparage Kerry's actions that day. Boats under ambush are going to maneuver wildly to make a worse target, and when they struck the mine they had no way of immediately knowing if they had struck a mine or been hit by a rocket, and every reason to suspect that either way the ambush might have been covered from land. (As it might have been - some reported hearing AKs, and a force expecting to fire up one stunned Swift boat might well fire up the stricken boat but would not likely stick around long after ambushing three. In the cacophony of fire from the Swift boats some might honestly miss some AK fire - or might conveniently forget it decades later.) Kerry was piloting a Boston Whaler, a small fiberglass civilian boat (under 20') armed only with an M60. The two 50' Swift boats might have been as hazardous to him as any VC, and his lone M60 wouldn't add much fire power, so from the other boats' perspective his fleeing the immediate area was perhaps the most useful thing he could have done. But his behavior afterwards, implying cowardice on the part of everyone besides himself to get a Silver Star and subsequent political popularity, is repugnant in the extreme. And totally unnecessary; Kerry went to Vietnam, volunteered for hazardous duty, and fought honorably; that should be enough to gain him respect from anyone.

 

[thraashman]

George Bush gave the order. Obama took the credit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeVEUNI-Cuo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUXiByDQ3bA&feature=relmfu

Saying Bush gave the order and Obama took credit would be like giving Mike Shula credit for Alabama's national championship last year. Bush abandoned efforts to get Osama long before his Presidency ended and you know it.

 

[CitizenKain]

Obama hemmed and hawed for months before approving the raid, waiting for David Axelrod and Valerie Jarrett to give him their OK. His POLITICAL team structured their orders so that if a failure occurred it would be laid solely on the military. CYA all the way! That's Team Obama's motto!

Oh you believe things like that, how hilarious.

 

[cirrrocco]

According to the swiftboat part 2 logic, colin powell , normal schwarzkoff, hitler , stalin , eisenhower are not responsible for what they did.

because they just gave the order.

republican chicken hawks and their non stop vocal menstruation.

 

[First]

George Bush gave the order. Obama took the credit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeVEUNI-Cuo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUXiByDQ3bA&feature=relmfu

lol troll.

 

[blankslate]

Lots of references, this is the first one that popped up. It may not be the best one, but, hey, you could have easily done your own search. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGBCMyw1oH0 "I directed Leon Panetta, the director of the CIA, to make the killing or capture of bin Laden the top priority . . . even as I continued our broader effort. . . . Then, after years of painstaking work by my intelligence community I was briefed . . . I met repeatedly with my national security team . . . And finally last week I determined that I had enough intelligence to take action. . . . Today, at my direction . . ." Yadda, yadda, yadda.

He's basically saying that he acted in his role as Commander in chief to instruct the CIA and other intelligence agencies to gather information that would lead to Bin Laden.

Funny how the editor of your link only shows a segment of the news conference that has the most usage of the word I. Instead of a longer clip found here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzD1ecqVBZY

In which after President Obama says "Today, at my direction..."

...the United States launched a targeted operation against that compound in Abadabad Pakistan. A small team of Americans carried out the operation with extraordinary courage and capability. No Americans were harmed. They took care to avoid civilian casualties. After a firefight they killed Osama Bin Laden and took custody of his body.

Notice that when he describes the actual operation there is no use of the word "I"

The next paragraphs have more instances of President Obama using the word We rather than the word "I"

the transcript of the speech is here.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2011/05/02/remarks-president-osama-bin-laden

In case you don't trust them

Fox News has a transcript as well.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/05/02/transcript-obama-announces-killing-bin-laden/

It's funny how someone who styles himself as a humble libertarian only shows the excerpt of a press announcement that contains the most uses of the first person personal pronoun in the shortest period of time.

It makes President Obama look like he constantly used the words "I" throughout the speech when in actuality he's using the words Us or We much more often.

If you actually search the terms in google chrome <space>I<space> and <space>We<space> with ctrl + F, the "we" is used over thirty times and the word "i" is used at most 15 times.


That definitely falls under the category of showing a segment without the context of a whole speech. :hmm:

In my opinion the editor of that video made the equivalent of a troll post If he really had a valid point why not show 7+ minutes of the press conferences from both of the Presidents instead of selected clips?

Based on the link you provided then comparing it to the links that are available that show a more complete picture of President Obama's statements; this humble libertarian needs to pick another adjective to describe himself.

TLDR: Way to go picking the link that distorts the President's speech in which the death of Bin Laden was announced.

 

[PJABBER]

Bush abandoned efforts to get Osama long before his Presidency ended and you know it.

Proof?

 

[diesbudt]

> "Mr. President, you did not kill Osama bin Laden, America did. The work that the American military has done killed Osama bin Laden. You did not,"

"You didn't build that" part 2?

"Our factories made the bullets and guns, and our tax dollars paid for the copter fuel. So Mr. Obama you did not kill Bin Laden all by yourself."

The funny thing is, I don't recall Obama ever claiming that he pulled the trigger . . . .

Oh but he did. Hes a sneaky ninja, and infiltrated the base all alone James Bond style and took him out.

He just doesnt want it known he is a bad ass ninja, so they built a cover story around how it was the navy seals.

Hell to even make it more believeable they crashed a helicopter on his compound afterwards.

Be careful, he is watching all of us... from the shadows!

Barrack, the shadow, Obama!

 

[PJABBER]

He's basically saying that he acted in his role as Commander in chief to instruct the CIA and other intelligence agencies to gather information that would lead to Bin Laden.

Snip.

Honestly, where do you get "gutsy" from giving instructions, or anything that Obama claims to have done by his lonesome, by your own references?

Maybe we each have a different understanding of the meaning of the term?

 

[soulcougher73]

FAUX OUTRAGE!!

We all know in politics shit rolls up hill. Good and bad shit. It is totally opposite of the real world where a CEO can fuck up and the new peon gets blamed and fired for it. In politics if Congress/Senate/House fuck up the President takes the blame for it.

 

[Thump553]

Honestly, where do you get "gutsy" from giving instructions, or anything that Obama claims to have done by his lonesome, by your own references?

Maybe we each have a different understanding of the meaning of the term?

Easy. He could have ordered a missle strike/bombing run-OBL would probably be as dead, but we would have no proof/closure and none of the probably extremely valuable intelligence the SEALs took from the compound. Downside: Pakistani government bitches and moans about soveriegnity, we throw them a few billion more in payoffs.

If the SEAL strike failed, the media (especially FAUX) and the GOP would be screaming Jimmy Carter II nonstop. Almost certainly it would have killed Obama's chances for a second term.

Just because there was no personal physical risk to the President doesn't take away the fact this was a gutsy call-one that paid off big for the USA.

 

[diesbudt]

FAUX OUTRAGE!!

We all know in politics shit rolls up hill. Good and bad shit. It is totally opposite of the real world where a CEO can fuck up and the new peon gets blamed and fired for it. In politics if Congress/Senate/House fuck up the President takes the blame for it.

and 9/10 it is congress that screws up. Because well... its congress. The President doesn't have that much say in what bills congress looks at, that is more the house and the 2 parties in the bi-partisan.

The president is more a delegate and a cheerleader when it comes to bills he firmly believes should be passed.

And obama, is a super-ninja. All who disbelieve me, I hope you sleep with the lights on.

 

[blankslate]

Honestly, where do you get "gutsy" from giving instructions, or anything that Obama claims to have done by his lonesome, by your own references?

Maybe we each have a different understanding of the meaning of the term?

What a stupid post the above is.

Where in this thread have I used the word "gutsy"?

Yeah go on ignore my rebuttal to your post with more complete information than the link that you provided which showed an out of context segment.

While your at it you might as well put words in other peoples' mouths... since it seems that you won't post anything containing actual substance regarding this thread

 

[blankslate]

Man, that's a muddled "fact check". It vacillates back and forth between two completely separate incidents. But for the record, my charge depends on which John Kerry you believe. In his book, he claimed that when one Swift boat struck a mine, blowing Rassmann out of the stricken boat, the other two Swift boats fled leaving the inured Kerry in his little Boston Whaler to bravely pick up Rassman under withering fire. Kerry was later forced to admit that the other two Swift boats stopped to aid the stricken boat and fire up the banks, that only Kerry fled, and that Rassmann was not blown off the stricken boat as his accounts implies but was in fact on Kerry's boat and was dumped into the water when Kerry slammed his throttle forward to escape the kill zone. Kerry's explanation for his fleeing the scene was to give the larger boats room to maneuver.

Given that the goal of the Swift Boaters were achieved. I'm not very much interested in prioritizing my time to devote hours of research to this subject.

I'm sure that your viewpoint regarding Kerry would actually have facts that support it if researched diligently so I'll take your word on the matter.

However, if you expect me to hold these swift boaters in high regard about to their choice to support a person who had a relatively cushy Air National Guard assignment over a person who actually was in a combat zone... well, that won't happen.

 

[PJABBER]

Easy. He could have ordered a missle strike/bombing run-OBL would probably be as dead, but we would have no proof/closure and none of the probably extremely valuable intelligence the SEALs took from the compound. Downside: Pakistani government bitches and moans about soveriegnity, we throw them a few billion more in payoffs.

If the SEAL strike failed, the media (especially FAUX) and the GOP would be screaming Jimmy Carter II nonstop. Almost certainly it would have killed Obama's chances for a second term.

Just because there was no personal physical risk to the President doesn't take away the fact this was a gutsy call-one that paid off big for the USA.

Again, your definition and mine are quite different.

I guess if re-election chances are the risk you take to do the job of President, we should hope Mr. Prez makes the right decision and hopefully the proper political result follows. As we now know that the strike decision was pushed back a number of times on advice of his political advisers, perhaps we should ourselves consider that more important considerations were on his mind than killing or capturing a mass murderer of Americans.

Maybe the trader that makes a career risking bet on currency moves is gutsy, maybe the office administrator that orders more paper clips than is authorized by a controller to get a deal is gutsy. Or maybe not, if that is what they should be doing. Their necks are on the line for sure, the consequences of inaction are more known than if they go forward.

But, the SEAL that gets through BUDS and team training and then goes operational is risking not only a career but his life in the service of his country each and every time he is deployed.

Button pushers and paper pushers, even self-serving Presidents, do need guts, but the quality and the quantity, at least to me, are of a whole different character than is that held by special operators - in this case the DEVGRU guys that went in hot.

 

[Phokus]

PJabber, Bush publicly stated he didn't care about Bin Laden, then disbanded the CIA unit tasked to hunting him down. You're dumb.

 

[hal2kilo]

Well, we all know how fond Obama is of the word "I." His narcissism runs deep. From all indications, Obama spends a LOT of time doing the mirrror, mirror on the wall thing (biographical books, speeches, references to himself over and over again.)

Military operations are complex and involve teams with many players. Some of the players get the spotlight (ie fighter pilots,) others not so much (mechanics.) Those whose lives depend on the professionalism of the team are particularly prone to recognize that dependency and offer credit. Those who are oblivious to such dependency, don't.

For the life of me I don't see how approving the raid on Bin Laden's compound was "gutsy," the most common term bandied about.

Sure, if things went wrong he would have more blame for violating Pakistan's sovereignty than he did. If the team that went in had casualties, he would have caught some flack. But the only risk to him was POLITICAL, and compared to the risk of life that the SEALs and aviators faced, this is NOTHING.

Obama hemmed and hawed for months before approving the raid, waiting for David Axelrod and Valerie Jarrett to give him their OK. His POLITICAL team structured their orders so that if a failure occurred it would be laid solely on the military. CYA all the way! That's Team Obama's motto!

The special operations community prefers to work anonymously. When they don't, they become targets and they lose their ability to work in the shadows. The stars of CIA officers killed in the line of duty that are on display at CIA HQ don't have names for many very good reasons. Save the medals for private ceremonies in anonymous rooms, and then hold them for after retirement, or risk the lives and even the careers of those getting the medals.

Don't worry President Obama, the community recognizes its own, and that recognition is much more valued than the politically opportune and fleeting nods that politicians make.

We, the citizens who live free due to their devotion, we do owe gratitude. I like to give contributions to the Wounded Warrior Project, because some transitions from active service are much harder than others.

So long as I am on about this, one thing that Obama seems to have no clue about is the daily bravery, the willingness to confront fear and physical hardship, the isolation from family that goes with this line of work. But within the community, these are a given, they are the glue of common hardship overcome.

But when politicians jump to take the spotlight, to claim they are "gutsy," well, I invite them to take a week out of their lives to share BUDS, Ranger, Aviation Rescue Swimmer or some other challenging course of instruction to get a "feel" for what the military considers "gutsy."

No, they don't have to spend time in places like the Korengal Valley, that is not their job. But with many of the current generation of political leaders, Rs and Ds alike, lacking ANY military experience, it would be a good idea to have such an orientation a visceral requirement upon getting the job. IMHO.

Was it the speckled pyramids or the multicolored fire bird stamps you took when you made up this fantastical delusion of a story.

 

[woolfe9999]

This is the sludge that is now American politics. It was bad enough when it was just campaigns running misleading adds with money donated from special interests. Now it's these third party organizations with unlimited funding, and the most nauseating aspect of it is that they claim to be non-political or somehow neutral. This is the worst of the worst. Anyone who does not condemn this sort of thing, no matter which side it emanates from, is as bad or worse then those who propagate it. If no one acted as apologists for this sort of thing, and everyone instead condemned it, it wouldn't be worth the money to do it at all.

 

[thraashman]

So I guess the people that are in this group are also filing legal papers to get Charles Manson released because afterall, he didn't kill a single person himself.

 

[PJABBER]

PJabber, Bush publicly stated he didn't care about Bin Laden, then disbanded the CIA unit tasked to hunting him down. You're dumb.

If you are taking down the entire leadership and the infrastructure, the guy at the top will fall eventually, even if he is sitting watching cable news in Pakistan.

BTW, have you ever heard the term "misdirection?"

Public statements in this game should be taken with a grain of salt. What is put out for public consumption is not necessarily fully or accurately descriptive of what is happening on the covert side of things, dontcha think?

Do you really think Bin Laden relaxed a bit when ABC/CBS/MSLSD ran the story?