Star Citizen Development Discussion (Is Derek Smart Right?)

[Sabrewings]

I thought 2.6 was delayed until next year, as per the articles I've read on it. That not the case?

2.6 is out to a select group of testers right now. I was playing it last night. It should be out to the general public before Christmas.

 

[Fallen Kell]

This is something that I scratch my head on and find it a bit frustrating in convos about the issues and concerns about SC. If someone comments on the game having unplayable issues or people bitching major parts of the game aren't close to being released, we get told "The games not out yet.. you need to wait until it's released before passing judgement". and if people complain or comment concerns about the game not being out it's "the game IS out.. you can play right now (just pay no attention to the issues, and lack of features like proper missions, though I conceed I've heard of there being some missions in the game even if they are buggy, and story lines). Which is it?

Because you fail to put the posts into context. The context of people complaining about something that is released is that it is Alpha. The context to people who say there is no game, is that there is a game, it is in Alpha. The parts that exist are all proof of concepts and work in progresses to test out play quality. The Alpha builds we get access to are also in fact weeks if not months behind the current game builds that CIG is using (case and point, CIG demo'ed their 3.0 back in August). We get "stable" builds. I seriously mean that. Alpha builds typically crash left and right... you push a button, or trigger an event, or some combination of context menus, etc., and crash... We get a fairly well polished Alpha build, but as a result, it means that someone looked over the serious crash bugs and fixed most of them before releasing.

The longest, hardest part of development is getting the engine in place. The reason they needed multiple passes on original ships is because they needed to keep up with the engine. Typically most game development studios would not spend a lot of time on asset creation until the engine is done (making due to basic models to test out functionality).

I thought 2.6 was delayed until next year, as per the articles I've read on it. That not the case?

2.6 was almost always coming out this year. It was 3.0 which was questionable. While back in the summer, they were trying to have 3.0 out this year, to most people following the game, we had a feeling it was not realistic. While CIG has been developing on the 3.0 branch since before they made the announcement, it all comes down to fixing most major crash bugs and memory leaks before a release is made. And since it took until now for 2.6 to get stable enough for release, they obviously are not going to abandon that work. The point of 2.6 is to get play and run data from the large amount of people with "alpha" access, to find most of the bugs in the features introduced. The same will happen with "3.0". I have a feeling that "3.x" will be the last of the "alpha" releases, as 3.0 introduces most of the remaining engine capabilities needed for the entire game (landing on planets/ground base generation/planetary animal life/planetary weather among other things... again all demo'ed earlier this year, just not in release state to thousands of players who are not software developers or professional game testers and thus have no idea how to deal with true "alpha" content). At which point the "beta" releases will begin. The purpose of "beta" releases is to find as many bugs and code/performance optimizations as possible. There will be new "content" (new maps/planets/ships, etc.,) but no major new "features" (i.e. game engine changes). It is almost always just polish, some balancing, and lots of optimizations.

 

[SLU Aequitas]

Oh, there's a beta also... Is there a gamma?

I've never heard of gamma in game development. Alpha and Betas are commonplace.

 

[Ranulf]

So the holiday stream was mentioned above, which apparently has been taken off line. A highlight reel from it is up though:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6UpYsOwlGY

 

[JSt0rm]

Star Citizen is a lie. Its never coming out.

Thanks for starting this thread so I didnt have to.

 

[JSt0rm]

 

[JSt0rm]

weird is a good word to describe the whole thing.

 

[JSt0rm]

so what did everyone think of the stream? looks like they are gonna dump 2.6 minus star citizen (still mia) on the shitizens before the holiday to try and stem the disgruntled mess they have. 3.0? lol. The tide is turning, finally people are waking up to this thing. Once the refund cascade hits... *poof*

Then the die hards can blame ds and goons for killing the game. They wont even have to think poorly of croberts. it wasnt feature creep and bad management that killed it. It was goons.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6UpYsOwlGY

lookin good

https://www.twitch.tv/wtfosaurus/v/107831224?t=2h19m52s

 

[JSt0rm]

Read this to understand game development... I mean to understand why as we get further along in this whole debacle things become more broken.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_Peter_principle

The software Peter principle is used in software engineering to describe a dying project which has become too complex to be understood even by its own developers.

It is well known in the industry[citation needed] as a silent killer of projects, but by the time the symptoms arise it is often too late to do anything about it[citation needed]. Good managers can avoid this disaster by establishing clear coding practices where unnecessarily complicated code and design is avoided.

The name is used in the book C++ FAQs (see below), and is derived from the Peter Principle – a theory about incompetence in hierarchical organizations.

 

[Skel]

Because you fail to put the posts into context.The context of people complaining about something that is released is that it is Alpha. The context to people who say there is no game, is that there is a game, it is in Alpha. <snip>

While I'm really struggling to see how this

It just seems so odd that a game that's not even out yet still gets a steady income coming in.. it's hard to get my head around sometimes.. It's impressive what they've done.

wasn't clear of in context of what I was saying, I'll try? to do better in making sure what I'm saying is clear.. Also, this is what I mean when I speak of people trying to have it both ways. I've never seen anyone refer to an Beta as a release let alone an Alpha. Unless you're trying to say they're making the game, which I'd agree.. but releasing an Alpha as early access (knowing they'd be even further in money issues if they didn't release anything at all) isn't releasing a game. Until they say it's done and released, it's still a dev project that could end up never getting finished.

so what did everyone think of the stream? looks like they are gonna dump 2.6 minus star citizen (still mia) on the shitizens before the holiday to try and stem the disgruntled mess they have. 3.0? lol. The tide is turning, finally people are waking up to this thing. Once the refund cascade hits... *poof*

Then the die hards can blame ds and goons for killing the game. They wont even have to think poorly of croberts. it wasnt feature creep and bad management that killed it. It was goons.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6UpYsOwlGY <snip pic>

lookin good

https://www.twitch.tv/wtfosaurus/v/107831224?t=2h19m52s

One thing, I'd really appreciate it if you'd refrain from the name calling. It derails the convo and gives people ammo for saying this is only a troll thread when you refer to them as "shitzens". This is a interesting topic to some and I'd hate to see it devolve into just name calling.

Read this to understand game development... I mean to understand why as we get further along in this whole debacle things become more broken.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_Peter_principle

The software Peter principle is used in software engineering to describe a dying project which has become too complex to be understood even by its own developers.

It is well known in the industry[citation needed] as a silent killer of projects, but by the time the symptoms arise it is often too late to do anything about it[citation needed]. Good managers can avoid this disaster by establishing clear coding practices where unnecessarily complicated code and design is avoided.

The name is used in the book C++ FAQs (see below), and is derived from the Peter Principle – a theory about incompetence in hierarchical organizations.

I've been under the impression that while they had issues in the past, they've correct them and now are on trackish.. very very late, but at least heading down a right path. Not sure how much they spent figuring out they were on the wrong path, but that's a different topic. I'm trying to be open minded about the state of this game.. while it does look like they're still floundering from what I've read (it really reminds me of Duke), I don't see the full picture... also I don't want to be accused of being nothing but a troll trying to kill the dreams of the fans of this game..

 

[JSt0rm]

the community has proven itself to be toxic. Not only here but around the web. Trying to stifle any and all negativity about the project. Trying to dox people or make demands about journalistic sources. They deserve everything they are going to get at this point. And what they are going to get is a buggy half baked idea that is completely broken.

Even here the "citizens" of this forum actively tried to get me permanently banned for having the wrong opinion about their video game.

This is going to be one of the greatest examples of sunk cost fallacy we will ever see.

 

[JSt0rm]

oh and if you pay cig $10 you can have access to 2.6. Funny how that works eh?

 

[JSt0rm]

there is no alpha. An alpha is a vertical slice of the entire game. That would mean you would need trading/missions/interstellar travel/planet landing/ space worms and whatever other feature they plan on implementing in 1 vertical slice. It can be small. 1 mission 2 solar system 1 space worm 1 alien language whatever but thats when you know if all the moving parts are working together. I doubt they even have a vertical slice of sq42 and they certainly dont have a vertical slice of sc.


Reading about it more vertical slice is pre-alpha. So we aren't even pre-alpha yet.

 

[Skel]

the community has proven itself to be toxic. Not only here but around the web. Trying to stifle any and all negativity about the project. Trying to dox people or make demands about journalistic sources. They deserve everything they are going to get at this point. And what they are going to get is a buggy half baked idea that is completely broken.

Even here the "citizens" of this forum actively tried to get me permanently banned for having the wrong opinion about their video game.

This is going to be one of the greatest examples of sunk cost fallacy we will ever see.

I've seen what you're saying, and for a lot of fans I agree with you. There are some that aren't closed minded and can have honest talks about the issues with this game. In this thread there was a kind of cease fire of if we don't go personal they won't try to close the thread by call it trolling. So far this has been kind of working. If anything, I'd like to keep person attacks out of this thread because they do nothing and only go downward fast. Just saying, at least here, please try to refrain from the personal attacks.

oh and if you pay cig $10 you can have access to 2.6. Funny how that works eh?

there is no alpha. An alpha is a vertical slice of the entire game. That would mean you would need trading/missions/interstellar travel/planet landing/ space worms and whatever other feature they plan on implementing in 1 vertical slice. It can be small. 1 mission 2 solar system 1 space worm 1 alien language whatever but thats when you know if all the moving parts are working together. I doubt they even have a vertical slice of sq42 and they certainly dont have a vertical slice of sc.


Reading about it more vertical slice is pre-alpha. So we aren't even pre-alpha yet.

Normally when someone pays for a game to play it now I'd call it a sale, but in this game I've learned that only makes people cranky. As you've seen in my other posts, I've been really clear about the confusion that is caused by the having their cake and eating it too of if the game is 'out' or not. I believe that CIG didn't have much of a choice, they had to release something or a lot more people would be causing drama for them. At least this way some people are happy. There's a few posters that are really happy the Alpha is out and playable, so it's not all bad. I personally don't see it as a game yet, as most of the key features promised aren't completed. To me, it's still a dev project. That's why I'm impressed they're still able to milk money out of it. I dont' think any other game could have done that. I also think that has more to do with the void in the genre than SC itself, but I won't take away the fact they're still able to do it... even if them continuing to do it does raise questions to me, like how much do they need to finish this game, and is it even possible to complete the game within the next couple of years.

 

[JSt0rm]

I didn't personally attack anyone. I was using generalities and never called out a single individual.

You can be optimistic but cig and croberts have promised the moon when thats not possible. I backed it very early on and as I saw more and more promises I realized the thing went pear shaped. Long before ds or goons came around to it I was thinking it wasnt going to happen.

The game is now about how much money they can milk from the whales. Anyways the money isnt coming in as fast anymore so expect layoffs next year. This will slow things down even more. If I were croberts I would figure out how much money I have left and then if possible scrap everything except for art assets and switch engines and start over. This time though he should hire an experienced project leader and make himself the spokes person of the project and game designer that can be vetoed by the project manager. If they are too far and dont have enough left to start over then its going to be the biggest failure in gaming history. Its already the third most expensive game project to ever be made (attempted) @ 160 mill and its still growing.

 

[JSt0rm]

my mistake sc is second most expensive development budget game. Only second to star wars the old republic. Im sure we all know where a good amount of the development budget went - licensing.

 

[Red Storm]

I dont' think any other game could have done that.

Have you never seen an Early Access game on Steam?

 

[norseamd]

There was a fairly good series put out by Kotaku UK that covered the project's mis-steps in the early days, changes in direction, then re commitment to doing things right from the ground up and moving forward from there. It includes a lot of insider interviews, including with CR himself. I recommend you read it and then see how you feel.

This.

 

[JSt0rm]

This.

does it feel like they fixed everything?

 

[norseamd]

does it feel like they fixed everything?

No, I cant say anything of the sort. Depends on what you want to know or are focused on. And I cant say if that proves wrong or nullifies anything that Derek Smart said. All I can say is that they apparently had some major problems with bad planning and bad organization at the start of the project, and it took them a while to actually start sorting everything out, and that apparently they have finally started getting on the right track.

 

[JSt0rm]

and that apparently they have finally started getting on the right track.

ok.

on the right track now...

 

[JSt0rm]

this one is pretty good. Surprised it came from the brown sea...

soon citizen. lmao.

 

[Chipopo]

Star Citizen ties with WildStar for "Most Likely to Flop in 2017"

http://massivelyop.com/2016/12/18/massively-ops-best-of-2016-awards-most-likely-to-flop/

 

[Worthington]

interesting quote from one of the commentators in that article:
"I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, Star Citizen cannot live up to the hype. There are so many systems in that game. The layers upon layers of complexity are amazing for the deep-diving player, but it’s the casuals who will ultimately decide if the game is a hit or a miss. And the game is far too complex to be the next big MMO."

 

[TechBoyJK]

Star Citizen ties with WildStar for "Most Likely to Flop in 2017"

http://massivelyop.com/2016/12/18/massively-ops-best-of-2016-awards-most-likely-to-flop/

What's your analysis on the validity of the claim? The article doesn't read well or make the authors look well educated on the matter. Reads more like empty click bait. The people casting stones at SC are using the typical DS obfuscated BS that he's infamous for. Basically, the votes for SC in this poll are coming from misguided folks.






I ordered you out of the thread already.

Now you are removed for 30 days from PC Gaming.


esquared
Anandtech Forum Director