Star Citizen Development Discussion (Is Derek Smart Right?)

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bbhaag

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2011
4,715
528
126
So you don't have evidence for anything you've said. No evidence of CIG encouraging a grey market, no evidence of CIG faking demos, no evidence at all. All you have is conjecture.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,415
3,939
126
So you don't have evidence for anything you've said. No evidence of CIG encouraging a grey market, no evidence of CIG faking demos, no evidence at all. All you have is conjecture.
Listen matlock. All you need to do is look. You obviously just want to repeat yourself as if thats some kind of checkmate. As if somehow if only someone somewhere said something like where is your evidence all the critical thought about the game would evaporate. If you want to believe in a thing believe it but reality is starting to crash into your bubble. Some people think cig wont last another year.

Here are some things to look forward to next year from people in the company...ask about evidence again matlock.

  • 2017 is now looking like the last full operational year for CIG (*from the perspective of 2 people who recently left)
  • several office/staff moves (including the Brno move, disco lando, ben, etc) are still planned
  • roberts joked at one point "the cheap labor must flow"
  • the "must deliver" deadline is still march/q1 of 2017 for the sqlude
  • might be much less than what was planned to be released (think less than an hour of story content, highly repetitive missions to pad playtime, grind, etc)
  • sqlude will include the new footage shot earlier this year of hamill
  • direction/management are being shuffled around, some people with no experience are now in charge of dozens of employees
  • several employees and execs are now gone, including cashing out on promised bonuses or other monies when they left
  • motion capture problems include missing payments to studios where work was done (backend, most likely)
  • "If [we] didn't have money in the tank for refunds, delay. Delay, delay, delay. Promise, then delay. That was standard, yes."
  • had to cut one or several major characters from SQ42
  • additional mocap is required "to have the story make any sense" thanks to "constant" changes to the script
  • entire maps, levels, mocap, VA, music and SFX have been thrown out, reworked and thrown out again
  • what was promised for 2.6, especially networking, won't be in until late Jan/Feb 2017 at the earliest (maybe midyear)
  • 3.0 networking is a massive, complete mess and won't be anywhere ready for 2017
  • "They are walking the design back on a massive scale. Try and get a refund."
  • ^^ moma that one is for you because the guy who said it, lol, just lol
  • crunch time has continued now for over six months, some people over a year
 

bbhaag

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2011
4,715
528
126
Can you provide any evidence for anything you post? Sorry if I don't take you at your word. Your rambling is nice but it doesn't really provide evidence for the claims you've made. Cmon man.

the ships are dlc. They have added "insurance" wtf that is and they were big on a "grey" market. Cig knew they made a tulip bulb bubble and didnt care because people had a incentive to buy more ships. i.e. sell them later for more because reasons.
Do you have any evidence to back up those claims? "Because reasons" isn't really saying much beyond your own personal beliefs which you've made very clear. Are you saying you have actual evidence that CIG knowingly sold ships with LTI to support a grey market?
there have been a ton of fake demos in sc. pupil to planet. The old star marine "demo" from like 2 years ago. The hey this is me blowing up on the deck of a big ship. Its all gear towards selling more jpegs. pu 3.0 was fake
Do you have any evidence of these things you are accusing CIG of? First it was LTI and the grey market too sell ships. Now it seems you've moved on too fake demos and the deck of big ships. Can you provide any evidence that 3.0 is fake and CIG is just selling jpegs.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,415
3,939
126
look at those bullet points. time will tell. eh? ive posted so much but its only been about 2% of the info that flows by. I honestly dont have the time to try and convince you. If you want to believe then believe.
 

bbhaag

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2011
4,715
528
126
Your posts need to be backed up with evidence. From what I can tell there is little truth to what you post about CIG.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,415
3,939
126
Your posts need to be backed up with evidence. From what I can tell there is little truth to what you post about CIG.
first off my posts dont need to be backed up with anything. Secondly wait and see. I posted some pretty specific bullet points about stuff thats incoming from the future. If you think its all lies laugh at me in 2018.
 

bbhaag

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2011
4,715
528
126
I'm waiting for evidence on what you've said and claim to be true. If you're so sure post up some evidence. You run your mouth a lot now back it up.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,415
3,939
126
I'm waiting for evidence on what you said and claimed to be true. If you're so sure post up some evidence. You run your mouth a lot now back it up.
are you autistic? How can I give you proof of something that doesnt exist? i.e. the game. This thread is for those of us who want to talk about the mess. You have a thread to talk about dreams.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,415
3,939
126
and im not going to dig through 20 minutes of 3.0 demo to find all the edits on whip pans. then show them to you and have you say its not proof. No shit its not proof. Seeing 3.0 demo isnt proof it exists either.
 

bbhaag

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2011
4,715
528
126
You don't have anything do you. No evidence of anything. Just your own personal beliefs and not much else.
 

antihelten

Golden Member
Feb 2, 2012
1,752
245
106


check the dates and see where we are. I guess ds was right ;)
Of course DS was right, he's basically thrown out every possible date there is, so he's bound to hit the right one at some point, broken clock and all that.

Also EightAce has long ago been outed as a fraud, and so has TheAgent (who's "rumors" you are quoting here).

I'll gladly provide evidence of this, once you provide evidence of your claims.
 
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shadragon

Junior Member
Dec 21, 2016
3
0
1
I know he's often touted as being a troll, but do you think Derek Smart is on the money about Star Citizen now?
Derek Smart's name gets thrown around by CIG and their supporters like a cheap magicians smoke bomb. It distracts the audience temporarily while unseen manipulation goes on behind the slowly rising haze. Derek Smart! *poof* and your watch is gone.

Take every single Tweet, post, comment, video and blog from Derek Smart and delete them, as if they never existed. That takes away a lot of noise. Then what are you left with? Where is the game? Five years development and they are still in pre-alpha. Core tech like netcode is a shambles. Ships have been sold to customers and never developed. Where is the game? Where is it? Stop being distracted by Derek Smart and answer that one question. 140 million dollars collected and squirreled away in 14 different legal corporate entities worldwide? How does this get a game programmed? Change the ToS to deny refunds?

WHERE IS THE GAME?

Elite: Dangerous kickstarted a year after Star Citizen and got 2.5 million Pounds. They didn't ask for any other money. Elite now has thirty flyable ships in game and has already released several major upgrades with more in the works, after releasing two years ago.

The best comparison I can compare Star Citizen to is a new housing project on a grass field. There’s a lovely model home that’s been there for years. It’s full of glossy color brochures and large maps showing how wonderful things will look like at some point in the future. Streets, schools, parks, bus stops, etc. Yet when you look around the field, you see nothing but a series of lots marked off in flag tape with “SOLD” signs. Pipes and electrical cables stick out of the ground in odd places and many utility trenches have been dug, then refilled, then re-dug. In adjoining fields, more lots are being prepared to be placed on the market. There’s lots of sales people and advertising everywhere. Promise and anticipation are in the air, but no actual houses. When you ask when the houses will be ready to move in, the sales people say “soon” and shove marketing material in your face to buy another lot.

Across the street, children are playing near their homes. New homes that were begun a year after this development starting selling lots. They have nice, warm houses to live in.

Forget about Derek Smart. Where is the game and why are you not asking the same questions?
 

Sabrewings

Golden Member
Jun 27, 2015
1,942
35
51
Elite: Dangerous kickstarted a year after Star Citizen and got 2.5 million Pounds. They didn't ask for any other money. Elite now has thirty flyable ships in game and has already released several major upgrades with more in the works, after releasing two years ago.
Instead, Elite (which was started by a well established studio who already had a working engine for their project when KS began) is quite bland, has only a few hours of independent game loops, dry mechanics, and puts a significant amount of its content behind DLC paywalls. Yeah, they're really a shining example. It's a glorified galaxy viewing simulator (yes, I own it and a lifetime season pass).

  • 2017 is now looking like the last full operational year for CIG (*from the perspective of 2 people who recently left)
  • several office/staff moves (including the Brno move, disco lando, ben, etc) are still planned
  • roberts joked at one point "the cheap labor must flow"
  • the "must deliver" deadline is still march/q1 of 2017 for the sqlude
  • might be much less than what was planned to be released (think less than an hour of story content, highly repetitive missions to pad playtime, grind, etc)
  • sqlude will include the new footage shot earlier this year of hamill
  • direction/management are being shuffled around, some people with no experience are now in charge of dozens of employees
  • several employees and execs are now gone, including cashing out on promised bonuses or other monies when they left
  • motion capture problems include missing payments to studios where work was done (backend, most likely)
  • "If [we] didn't have money in the tank for refunds, delay. Delay, delay, delay. Promise, then delay. That was standard, yes."
  • had to cut one or several major characters from SQ42
  • additional mocap is required "to have the story make any sense" thanks to "constant" changes to the script
  • entire maps, levels, mocap, VA, music and SFX have been thrown out, reworked and thrown out again
  • what was promised for 2.6, especially networking, won't be in until late Jan/Feb 2017 at the earliest (maybe midyear)
  • 3.0 networking is a massive, complete mess and won't be anywhere ready for 2017
  • "They are walking the design back on a massive scale. Try and get a refund."
  • ^^ moma that one is for you because the guy who said it, lol, just lol
  • crunch time has continued now for over six months, some people over a year
Oh look! More predictions from theagent, how exciting! His track record is worse than DS and anyone who believes he's actually a CIG insider should have their head examined. And you call SC fans thick? Most of his predictions are wrong, and those that aren't even a casual observer of the project could make.

Covers it pretty well:

https://as.reddit.com/r/DerekSmart/comments/5je92w/todays_star_citizen_leaks_courtesy_of_theagent/dbficnn/?st=iwz007a7&sh=287d4fe6

Lots more fun in that thread if anyone is interested. The whole sub is a gold mine of hilarity that's actually based in fact and not full of finger paintings like you find elsewhere.
 

shadragon

Junior Member
Dec 21, 2016
3
0
1
Instead, Elite (which was started by a well established studio who already had a working engine for their project when KS began) is quite bland, has only a few hours of independent game loops, dry mechanics, and puts a significant amount of its content behind DLC paywalls. Yeah, they're really a shining example. It's a glorified galaxy viewing simulator (yes, I own it and a lifetime season pass).
Regardless of what your personal opinion is about the state of the Elite game, you have it and can play it now. The only "DLC" I know of is Horizons which is over half delivered now in a stable release. If you have an LEP then they cost you nothing.

Elite had the COBRA engine, yet even today CIG does not have core game play elements established because their engine of choice, CryEngine, is unsuited to the task. Lousy FPS on even top end machines, netcode issues and this on a game with only 15%'ish of promised content to date. Multiple re-writes on base things that should have been finalized YEARS ago. Their game demos are run over LAN, not WAN and still crash. When members of the SC community are critical of the project (on their forums or on other sites) they get banned from CIG forums. Roberts himself can't even play his own game without having tech support working over his shoulder and they want more money? Continuously slipping deadlines, "Open development" that takes place behind closed doors (Huh?), promised content is removed from releases all the time because of stability issues, financial accountability was removed from the ToS and they never honored that pledge. They are late filing financials for their corporations in the UK, but are happy to pay the subsequent fines with backer money. It's a train wreck and anyone who puts money into it at this stage, well, "A fool and his money..." comes to mind.

I have no money tied up in SC, never did and never will. I look on this from the outside as a neutral observer and see huge red flags flapping in he breeze. If people want to risk their cash, that's on them should it fail. No one can claim ignorance if and when it does.

Derek Smart may not be a perfect spokesperson, but he is asking some very good questions.

Thanks for backing up my points
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,415
3,939
126
Instead, Elite (which was started by a well established studio who already had a working engine for their project when KS began) is quite bland, has only a few hours of independent game loops, dry mechanics, and puts a significant amount of its content behind DLC paywalls. Yeah, they're really a shining example. It's a glorified galaxy viewing simulator (yes, I own it and a lifetime season pass).



Oh look! More predictions from theagent, how exciting! His track record is worse than DS and anyone who believes he's actually a CIG insider should have their head examined. And you call SC fans thick? Most of his predictions are wrong, and those that aren't even a casual observer of the project could make.

Covers it pretty well:

https://as.reddit.com/r/DerekSmart/comments/5je92w/todays_star_citizen_leaks_courtesy_of_theagent/dbficnn/?st=iwz007a7&sh=287d4fe6

Lots more fun in that thread if anyone is interested. The whole sub is a gold mine of hilarity that's actually based in fact and not full of finger paintings like you find elsewhere.
A lot of his predictions have come true. Sure not everyone because some of those are fluid and changing.

But that ds quote from feb 20th of this year saying it aint coming is real. And it didnt come. And if we roll back the sc thread to the same time period we will find the citizens full of hope about a release by xmas.

The reality is he picked the wrong engine. Chris hasnt been involved in games for 15 years and he steps back in says cryengine looks pretty and runs of with it. Horrible choices. Doesnt matter though. Sandy and chris have made over 10 million in salary from you guys over the last 4 years.
 

Sabrewings

Golden Member
Jun 27, 2015
1,942
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What were his choices at that point in time? Unreal was extremely unstable. Unity didn't have the capabilities they needed either and would still be a questionnable choice.

If they had developed their own they would've gone content silent until now, or maybe next year. That's better? They would have lost out on the real world play test experience they've had with AC, Crusader, and now SM.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,415
3,939
126
What were his choices at that point in time? Unreal was extremely unstable. Unity didn't have the capabilities they needed either and would still be a questionnable choice.

If they had developed their own they would've gone content silent until now, or maybe next year. That's better? They would have lost out on the real world play test experience they've had with AC, Crusader, and now SM.
I dont know what the choices were. But cryengine was a bad choice for all the things they wanted to do. It still is. The thing is he expanded the scope of the project beyond what that engine could do and now we have a broken thing.
 

ZGR

Golden Member
Oct 26, 2012
1,850
266
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Kinda off topic, but Elite: Dangerous is hardly finished. The 2.1 and 2.2 update completely changed the combat meta and Frontier threw gameplay balance out of the window.

Both CIG and Frontier have a lot of work to do, but Frontier's goals and aims are far more grounded and conservative than what Star Citizen is trying to be.

Right now Elite: Dangerous is in a weird state where much needs to be balanced and it seems like only CMDRs with A LOT of free time are the only ones rewarded. A year ago the game was an easy progression of rank and credits. Now it is a big grind! I feel bad for any new CMDRs trying to get into the game. Getting the Corvette/Cutter or good engineer upgrades is not fun at all.

The other game is No Man's Sky. That game is not finished. The 1.1 Foundation Update did some things right, but wow, Hello Games has a lot of work to do as well.

Star Citizen will require a lot more development than either of those two games. It is a far more complex game than either E: D or NMS. I can't see CIG dropping development of SC in 2017 or 2018. They have so much to do and I'm sure a few of the devs are loving what they are creating. The big worry for me is their awful marketing, poor communication and spotty uptime. Even if SQ42 and 3.0 never come out, the current state of the game is fun as it is a great blend of drop-in-and-out game play as well as a very unique and engaging combat model. I can't see SC having the same awful shitstorm that was the NMS release.

As long as the game remains playable, then being patient is all that is required. SC looks to be a 2019-2021 game. That long development cycle usually spells doom for a developer. We have all played games that were in development hell and turned out rather poor. Fortunately for CIG, many developers seems to be fine releasing an incomplete game as they are able to update and support it far, far longer than what was possible in the past.

I'm invested in many alpha games and engines that seem to be barely making progress. As long as the game/demo is playable I have no problem with early access. The major thing that alarmed me was the 2.6 rollout for SC breaking 2.5 for many. This was handled extremely poorly by CIG. Hopefully they are learning as they go.
 

Sabrewings

Golden Member
Jun 27, 2015
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I dont know what the choices were. But cryengine was a bad choice for all the things they wanted to do. It still is. The thing is he expanded the scope of the project beyond what that engine could do and now we have a broken thing.
At this point, I think it's the best choice. The real best choice is their own engine, but given the choices at the time and events that have happened since (hiring a large chunk of Crytek themselves) I think the right choice was made. They'll end up with their own engine anyway and we had content releases in the meantime as the engine morphed into their own.

When you have the original creators of the engine and the source license, there isn't anything another engine can do that you can't make yours do.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
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ed has its bones in place. Things work and they can add on to this as time goes on. hopefully fleshing out a solid thing in the next 5 years or so. SC is a unfocused mess. Seeing that dune worm was cringe. Like ok cr please tell us how you will coe these random events with this sand worm? That demo was fake too. Guy shot at the worm and it wasnt even registering. Chris even said uhh i wouldnt do that.

Cryengine is bad and people dont use it. This is why they are closing 5 studios. Its a complicated thing to work with. Unreal was available but he should of been thinking 64bit from the git.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,415
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When you have the original creators of the engine and the source license, there isn't anything another engine can do that you can't make yours do.
ok but you cant do anything. There are technical limitations and technical debt. Chris is learning the hard truths of this now. Too bad he didnt hire a human who knows about this stuff to inform him of his folly.
 

Sabrewings

Golden Member
Jun 27, 2015
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ok but you cant do anything.
I've dabbled in all three mentioned engines for years. It's powerful enough to do anything. You just have to know how to build it. I will admit they're editting it on a level that is over my direct experience, though.

Too bad he didnt hire a human who knows about this stuff to inform him of his folly.
He did. Erin Roberts is the most experienced studio manager and game designer at the company. If he says it can be done I believe him.
 

SLU Aequitas

Golden Member
Jul 13, 2007
1,252
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Derek Smart's name gets thrown around by CIG and their supporters like a cheap magicians smoke bomb. It distracts the audience temporarily while unseen manipulation goes on behind the slowly rising haze. Derek Smart! *poof* and your watch is gone.

Take every single Tweet, post, comment, video and blog from Derek Smart and delete them, as if they never existed. That takes away a lot of noise. Then what are you left with? Where is the game? Five years development and they are still in pre-alpha. Core tech like netcode is a shambles. Ships have been sold to customers and never developed. Where is the game? Where is it? Stop being distracted by Derek Smart and answer that one question. 140 million dollars collected and squirreled away in 14 different legal corporate entities worldwide? How does this get a game programmed? Change the ToS to deny refunds?

WHERE IS THE GAME?
In development. New games take time. Games on the scale of SC take longer. Unless you have a way of pulling them outta your rear end, in which case I have a business proposition for you.

It would be nice if DS and his goons just disappeared, much less noise here and we could actually discuss the game's development and its issues. Instead, we get JStorm :)

Elite: Dangerous kickstarted a year after Star Citizen and got 2.5 million Pounds. They didn't ask for any other money. Elite now has thirty flyable ships in game and has already released several major upgrades with more in the works, after releasing two years ago.
And it's nowhere close to the same scope as SC, it's a different game. Inch deep sums up Elite very well (sadly), and while I enjoyed the hell out of that inch (especially with the Rift), it's really nothing more than a grind fest that's gotten worse, not better, with time. Meanwhile, still no first person, ships are very, very same-y, and there's still no game :)

The best comparison I can compare Star Citizen to is a new housing project on a grass field. There’s a lovely model home that’s been there for years. It’s full of glossy color brochures and large maps showing how wonderful things will look like at some point in the future. Streets, schools, parks, bus stops, etc. Yet when you look around the field, you see nothing but a series of lots marked off in flag tape with “SOLD” signs. Pipes and electrical cables stick out of the ground in odd places and many utility trenches have been dug, then refilled, then re-dug. In adjoining fields, more lots are being prepared to be placed on the market. There’s lots of sales people and advertising everywhere. Promise and anticipation are in the air, but no actual houses. When you ask when the houses will be ready to move in, the sales people say “soon” and shove marketing material in your face to buy another lot.

Across the street, children are playing near their homes. New homes that were begun a year after this development starting selling lots. They have nice, warm houses to live in.

Forget about Derek Smart. Where is the game and why are you not asking the same questions?
Here's a better analogy. You just bought a $150M home. It's going to be a pretty sweet home, you've seen the brochure, heck, you've even had a say in some of the features going into the house. This is going to be one very big, complex home, which is exactly what you wanted. Now, the builder has had experience in the past making awesome homes, however this will be the biggest one yet. He'll need to round up some subs and then it'll take a while to make the house. You're cool with that because in the end, you're going to get what you want, and in the meantime, you get to see the house being made and try out different features of the house as they come online.

Meanwhile, there's a cookie-cutter home for $3M or so that also is going up right across the street. Now, that builder is from a larger company, and already has build a similar house before. Lo and behold, it's "done" after a couple of years. However, you go inside and realize there's no trim, the appliances are all white GE (THE HORROR!), and every room is exactly the same as the other.

Analogies are fun, right? :D

As for why we're not crying out the sky is falling? It's because we have patience. Because we know that based on the scope of SC, it'll take time to develop. And the majority of us are ok with that.

And hey, if you're not, I heard there's a game called Elite Dangerous that you can play.




Calling people in this thread goons is not allowed. Do it again and you will be removed from the thread.


esquared
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