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Star Citizen: Chris Robert`s new space sim (the Wing Commander guy)

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Igo69

Senior member
Apr 26, 2015
572
62
91
Are they seriously selling game content for $1100, $2700, $10K, and $15K or is that in game cash lol? :eek: o_O
 

Red Storm

Lifer
Oct 2, 2005
14,207
216
106
Are they seriously selling game content for $1100, $2700, $10K, and $15K or is that in game cash lol? :eek: o_O
That's just people who are well off and looking to support the game's ongoing development in a big way. Once the game launches they won't be selling ships for direct cash, and it'll be like any classic space sim where you work your way up in game and get the ships and equipment you want.
 

rivethead

Platinum Member
Jan 16, 2005
2,635
106
106
Are they seriously selling game content for $1100, $2700, $10K, and $15K or is that in game cash lol? :eek: o_O
Not only selling, but have sold. Yes, people have spent $15,000 (or more) to help support development of this game. As a reward, they've been given virtual ships (some not even designed yet).
 

rivethead

Platinum Member
Jan 16, 2005
2,635
106
106
Once the game launches they won't be selling ships for direct cash, and it'll be like any classic space sim where you work your way up in game and get the ships and equipment you want.
I personally think it could happen before game launch. I expect to see game packages for Star Citizen that come with no ship....just the game and starting UEC (and maybe starting clothes for your character!). And separate game packages that just come with Squadron 42.

In fact, if I were CR I would release these right now....ship pipeline is winding down.....I don't see the need to continue rewarding backers with a ship at this point.
 
Feb 4, 2009
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Honestly selling ships is a pretty good revenue stream for them I'd bet it continues in some form forever.
This isn't saying that money is being laundered steady income allows businesses to plan and forecast better plus employ more people to get crap done/service customers which is a good thing.
 

Stringjam

Golden Member
Jun 30, 2011
1,871
33
91
I remember when Elite Dangerous first came out I hated the flight model. Over time I learned to appreciate it and while I don't think SC needs to copy it outright, I do think that ships move a little too fast in SC, specifically with stuff like vertical thrusters.

I think where this really hurts SC is for joystick users. Before the mav thruster nerf, we could actually outfly and outmaneuver mouse users with gimballed weapons to avoid fire, but now it's just impossible - - they can move their mouse quicker than any ship can change vectors.

Before, the BR leaderboards had a good bit of diversity, and now the top 25 is mostly mouse users with gimballed Hornets.

You don't see any of the light agile ships like the Gladius anymore because they have no advantage - - they're no longer agile. All the ships are starting to handle the same, so the only effective ships are high DPS tanks. Ships are losing their flight character and individuality because it takes so long to ramp up and ramp down thrusters.

I personally think gimballed weapons on light fighters are ruining dogfighting more than any other attribute, but that's another subject. If gimbals and IM mouse mode are going to remain in the game, they HAVE to increase maneuverability for dogfighters or the fixed / joystick users are going to be screwed.

I feel confident based on Calix's comments a few days ago that they're going to fix the thruster rampdown (which is hurting more than anything) and perhaps take another look at thruster output when boosted or use a 2nd stage.

This way people with digital input aren't stuck with 0% or 100% thruster output, which makes precise strafe movement very difficult, but can reach high thruster levels with either a 2nd stage / boost.


When I first started playing this game, it was a big change of mindset for me. I started out flying my 300 like a plane, but then I discovered just how much freedom the flight model provided, and after practicing a good bit, my fun factor jumped up 1000%.

The thing is, it takes time to get good at. I think if more people coming from ED would have seriously given it a shot, there wouldn't be so much dissonance. The kind of flight maneuvers you could pull off were just awesome up to 1.3.
 

rivethead

Platinum Member
Jan 16, 2005
2,635
106
106
I still say: I wish CR would just post a video saying this: "We are building this game with realism in mind. To that end, flying your spaceship with a joystick or HOTAS setup is the preferred input method. You can still use a keyboard and mouse, but you will be at a distinct disadvantage"

Drawn the damn line in the sand. Quit trying to satisfy everyone. Get rid of that IM mouse mode.

So much time could be saved doing that. The devs could then focus on what's important instead of wide-spread appeasement.

And I'm still hopeful/waiting that mass will really impact ships. When I'm trading in UEE-controlled space, I want to be able to remove my weapons from my ship and have a tangible impact on fuel burn (use less fuel = higher profit for the mission). And even a tangible feel on how the ship handles without that mass.
 

Stringjam

Golden Member
Jun 30, 2011
1,871
33
91
Drawn the damn line in the sand. Quit trying to satisfy everyone. Get rid of that IM mouse mode.

So much time could be saved doing that. The devs could then focus on what's important instead of wide-spread appeasement.

Yeah, they have an uphill battle to fight keeping both groups happy. IMO, none of this would even be an issue if it weren't for light-fighter gimballed weapons. Everybody would be on the same playing field with no magic IM "auto pilot" mode given to one side. You would have to aim with your flight vector, which to me, is all the fun of flying a small, single-seat dogfighter.

I don't think they're going away, I think they'll just spend more time trying to get LAM and TargetFocus working correctly for joystick users who want to use gimbals.

That's fine, because you'll have to use gimbals on a larger ship to keep guns on a smaller ship, so I hope they get it working good.

________

On another note, I was actually able to take on 2 attackers last night in the Connie and win. The ship certainly is capable with a single pilot, but you HAVE to keep forward fire and keep the fighters from getting close and orbiting.

Two guys followed me away from Port Olisar. I got suspicious and kicked in the afterburner to get some distance. About 5000m in front I decoupled and spun the front end around, keeping backward momentum so they couldn't close the distance very fast.

Was able to get the big nacelle guns on both of them before they could close the gap and get close enough to strafe.

Right now, the Connie seems to be much better in a firefight flying backwards. ;)
 
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vshah

Lifer
Sep 20, 2003
18,998
20
81
I think where this really hurts SC is for joystick users. Before the mav thruster nerf, we could actually outfly and outmaneuver mouse users with gimballed weapons to avoid fire, but now it's just impossible - - they can move their mouse quicker than any ship can change vectors.

Before, the BR leaderboards had a good bit of diversity, and now the top 25 is mostly mouse users with gimballed Hornets.

You don't see any of the light agile ships like the Gladius anymore because they have no advantage - - they're no longer agile. All the ships are starting to handle the same, so the only effective ships are high DPS tanks. Ships are losing their flight character and individuality because it takes so long to ramp up and ramp down thrusters.

I personally think gimballed weapons on light fighters are ruining dogfighting more than any other attribute, but that's another subject. If gimbals and IM mouse mode are going to remain in the game, they HAVE to increase maneuverability for dogfighters or the fixed / joystick users are going to be screwed.

I feel confident based on Calix's comments a few days ago that they're going to fix the thruster rampdown (which is hurting more than anything) and perhaps take another look at thruster output when boosted or use a 2nd stage.

This way people with digital input aren't stuck with 0% or 100% thruster output, which makes precise strafe movement very difficult, but can reach high thruster levels with either a 2nd stage / boost.


When I first started playing this game, it was a big change of mindset for me. I started out flying my 300 like a plane, but then I discovered just how much freedom the flight model provided, and after practicing a good bit, my fun factor jumped up 1000%.

The thing is, it takes time to get good at. I think if more people coming from ED would have seriously given it a shot, there wouldn't be so much dissonance. The kind of flight maneuvers you could pull off were just awesome up to 1.3.
I don't know if this exists yet or not, but the mouse shouldn't be able to move the gimbal at the speed of the mouse pointer. the gimbals themselves should have a max rotational/aiming speed so you can't aim from one corner of the screen to the other instantly.
 

Stringjam

Golden Member
Jun 30, 2011
1,871
33
91
I don't know if this exists yet or not, but the mouse shouldn't be able to move the gimbal at the speed of the mouse pointer. the gimbals themselves should have a max rotational/aiming speed so you can't aim from one corner of the screen to the other instantly.
That would certainly help. Right now they have slew rates about as fast as you can move your mouse.
 

SithSolo1

Diamond Member
Mar 19, 2001
7,740
11
81
I don't know if this exists yet or not, but the mouse shouldn't be able to move the gimbal at the speed of the mouse pointer. the gimbals themselves should have a max rotational/aiming speed so you can't aim from one corner of the screen to the other instantly.

I can only speak from my experience but I freely admit I'm not that good at AC nor do I spend much time in it.

Gimballed weapons don't move instantly and they do have a limited angle.

Here's the issue as I see it:

Most of the combat I've been in the target has been within a photo sized area near the middle of the screen. As a joystick user all of my guns are locked dead ahead if I don't touch the mouse. That means to acquire and stay on target I have to fly my pants off because my guns only fire where the ship is pointed. On the other hand a mouse user can cover that whole "combat box" without really changing the direction of travel. You don't have to be an ace pilot with the mouse(not saying you can't be) to keep a ship on target near the center because your ship follows your aim. You can even aim away from your current vector to maintain lock or hit ships near the edge of the "box". Even a few degrees of traverse is enough to have a sizable advantage in time on target.


TL;DR

Joystick: Your aim follows your ship. Where the ship points is where the guns point. More fun/challenging imo.

Mouse: Your ship follows your aim. Where you point the mouse the ship will try to follow. Quicker/easier target acquisition and greater time on target.

All that said, I still prefer flying with the joystick.
 
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Red Storm

Lifer
Oct 2, 2005
14,207
216
106
Maybe they should do it like in Elite? Gimballed weapons will auto-target within a radius. This way it doesn't matter what control scheme you're using, the weapons behave the same.
 

GoodRevrnd

Diamond Member
Dec 27, 2001
6,798
581
126
Maybe they should do it like in Elite? Gimballed weapons will auto-target within a radius. This way it doesn't matter what control scheme you're using, the weapons behave the same.


I haven't put much seat time in but I completely agree with this. Just make gimballed weapons auto target with a toggle. Completely removed the control issues. Furthermore, it introduces an opportunity for tech progression. Make auto targeting effectiveness based on how good your "targeting computer" is versus the target's ECM.
 

rivethead

Platinum Member
Jan 16, 2005
2,635
106
106
Ok, I spent over 1 hour in PTU 2.1c this morning without a single crash to desktop. Sure there were several FPS drops....and by the end of the session it was continual....a slideshow. But no crashes.

This included:
Calling up my Avenger on pad A01....and finding the entry ramp bug back (I couldn't board it)....but that was ok because some d-bag was trying to steal the ship right in front of me (he couldn't get on either). PRO TIP: Everyone is spawning on Strut A....It's much better to just go out to pad 10 and EVA over to an empty Strut D than deal with all the noobs running around on Strut A. And the Avenger ramp bug is only happening on Strut A from what I am reading

Going to a Comm Array and getting my ass kicked by a pirate in an Aurora. Seriously, I don't get how they can fly Auroras like that. It's like they put the flight characteristics of the Vanduul on Auroras. They stop on a dime and change directions in a completely different vector. As I am chasing one, I take a few hits from another and suddenly explode.

Spawn back at Port Olisar....try the same comm array....same thing happens (a few hits from a pirate and I explode)

Spawn back at Port Olisar.....take on the PI mission instead. I'm able to complete this mission (first mission ever!)...but while I'm in Covalex, someone stole my Avenger. So I stole someone's Hornet...and somehow QD right into something and explode.

Bottom line: I think PTU 2.1c is a big leap forward in stability...even compared to my experiences with 2.0 live.

And with some free time around the holidays....timing couldn't be better.
 

Stringjam

Golden Member
Jun 30, 2011
1,871
33
91
Ok, I spent over 1 hour in PTU 2.1c this morning without a single crash to desktop. Sure there were several FPS drops....and by the end of the session it was continual....a slideshow. But no crashes.
Good to hear - - I'm still waiting for my account to copy over.


I honestly hope they don't copy over any mechanics from ED. Not auto aim or airplanes in space flight modeling. I grew bored of ED very quickly and that was a big part of it. It's fine if people enjoy that, but that's why ED exists, and I'm glad any PC space sim is successful. I would rather SC forge its own path.

SC flight modeling and aiming is skill-based with a high ceiling, and I'd like to see it stay that way because it gives the game longevity - - always something to strive for that isn't a gun or a ship. The whole point of this game was that a good pilot in an Aurora could beat a bad pilot in a Hornet. It wasn't supposed to be a DPS battle, but a skill-based battle, and I find that type of gameplay far more rewarding than grinding up to an Anaconda.
 
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Stringjam

Golden Member
Jun 30, 2011
1,871
33
91
2.1

Got to try out my Freelancer. Nice fidelity upgrade, and it looks like much more cargo storage. Cockpit view is very limited.

Flew my Gladius for awhile which made me sad. Couldn't maneuver its way out of a wet paper bag.

The premier purpose-built light dogfighter now flies like every other single-seater. Looking forward to the next flight pass to see if they will bring back some of the joy of 1.3, where every ship flew with its own unique character, and there was actually a reason to fly a Gladius instead of a Hornet.

I'll admit that 1.2 was probably a bit over-the-top on the thrusters, but I thought 1.3 was almost perfect. I think the problem is 1.3 was so short-lived and buggy that almost nobody spent much time playing it.
 

jlee

Lifer
Sep 12, 2001
48,502
214
106
Hahah I tried it maxed out at 4k. My single 970 was displeased.

I sent an application in for AT Ballers - JLee/JLEE50.
 

jlee

Lifer
Sep 12, 2001
48,502
214
106
Nice!

I recommend getting a second stick for your other hand. ;)
This is going to get expensive. :p Are you better off with dual sticks vs single / throttle? I'm looking at a T16000M, or possibly the Warthog HOTAS which is $315 on Amazon right now (lowest I have ever seen).
 

Stringjam

Golden Member
Jun 30, 2011
1,871
33
91
This is going to get expensive. :p Are you better off with dual sticks vs single / throttle? I'm looking at a T16000M, or possibly the Warthog HOTAS which is $315 on Amazon right now (lowest I have ever seen).

Well....I know it's really a personal preference thing, but I'll share my thoughts.

I spent about 40 hours with a HOTAS and about 20 hours with Dual Stick playing AC, and my preference by far is dual stick.

Dual sticks lets you control thruster power for every axis precisely. You won't need special landing and takeoff modes and you won't be bumping all over tapping digital strafe inputs around tight areas.

HOTAS is also fun, but I strongly recommend you get the CH Pro Throttle instead of the Warthog throttle if you go that route. It has an analog thumbstick you can use to control strafe (or roll). It's pretty much the universally recommended throttle for SC.

Note - - if you go with Dual Sticks, you'll need throttle control somehow. I have pedals I map to throttle and reverse strafe (sorry...more peripherals..lol).

Some guys just map forward and reverse strafe to the strafe stick, and then vertical strafe to the twist axis. I didn't like this at all, and I didn't like having to deflect the stick forward all the time for regular flight.

I used the pedals to control strafing when I used HOTAS, which worked well enough, but didn't feel nearly as natural as the sticks. There is a reason why real spaceships are flown with 2 sticks.

The good news is that you don't need an expensive stick for your strafe stick. A $40 Thrustmaster T16000M is ambidextrous and works perfectly, and it has a twist axis you can use for roll (I was skeptical at first, but now I'm a believer).


Keep in mind, you can still just use a M/KB if you want, because right now it's the dominant control input for SC (unfortunately). I don't care about that, because to me it just isn't any fun flying a spaceship with a mouse and keyboard, and having the most FUN is all I'm interested in.

Sorry for the wall of text - - I've just been messing around with trying to find the perfect control method for SC, for me, for quite a while.

TL;DR
If you get a HOTAS, get a CH ProThrottle instead of the Warthog.

I prefer Dual-Stick for the most precise strafe control.

Pedals are very helpful in either instance.

M/KB work great but aren't much fun for me.
 

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