Someone try to explain to me how the Gray family deserves 6.4M?

[realibrad]

there are piles of racists around here. Its pretty disappointing to see actually. They dont see freddie as a human they see him as some kind of animal that deserves death. So in their minds its impossible his life was worth any settlement let alone 6.5 mill.

What is the saying (or song lyric I guess):

If you are an upper class white male stfu already about what a black mans life is worth. They had enough of that in the past. Maybe they know the system is rigged against them. Maybe they know they will never rise above that poverty. Maybe they know they will never get a job, eat a healthy meal or actual enjoy living in the ways we know. Maybe they gave up.

Because in the end they are just as human and just as weak as all of us. Because I can tell you I would be in a most helpless state if I grew up in such poverty with no way out and chances are most of you would be too.

You used a lot of they in your post. Its almost like you are trying to generalize an entire group of people.

Also, your argument is that "they" have been mistreated for so long, that "they" are now harming themselves because "they" gave up.

 

[Ackmed]

Calling me a racist is pretty funny, you have no clue. I never said anything about his being black, not once. But that's what people do when they don't have an argument, and just name call like children. I would have said the same thing if he was white. Fact is, he was pretty worthless as far as doing good for his community from all reports. That's the bottom line.

The case of Freddie Gray is so interesting. An inner-city black man gets caught with a pocket knife, he's a thug and a criminal who 'deserved' his extrajudicial execution. A white conservative (who of course always carries a pocket knife) open-carries his AR15 to the grocery store, he's a 'patriot.'
But racism has nothing to do with this.

Not at all true, but good try. Not too long ago a thread was made about a white guy carrying a AR openly (In airport I think?) and I believe the vast majority condemned him for it. While being legal, it was stupid. And he was a douche for doing it.

You are a POS. Don't fool yourself, you are as worthless as you expect them to be.

Hardly. I actually work, pay taxes, don't have an arrest record a mile long, etc. You know, the things that people do to actually contribute to society.

I never said he deserved to die. Or that if he was abused by the police that he deserved that either. He absolutely did not deserve either. But no I am not at all sad that another leech is gone. 25 years old and 18 (at least juvy is not shown) arrests? Was he really doing anything good for the community he lived in, or was he contributing to make it worse? I think it is an obvious answer.

This amount of money is ridiculous for about anyone, not just him. I understand that putting a value on someones life if hard, and very open to personal opinion. A man who is married with two kids with a stay at home wife, that goes to work, and does all the things that dads do, TO ME is worth far more than someone who does none of that. Who has been arrested far too many times, who doesn't have a job. It will never get to that, weighing things in such a way. And honestly it probably shouldn't.

 

[fskimospy]

This amount of money is ridiculous for about anyone, not just him. I understand that putting a value on someones life if hard, and very open to personal opinion. A man who is married with two kids with a stay at home wife, that goes to work, and does all the things that dads do, TO ME is worth far more than someone who does none of that. Who has been arrested far too many times, who doesn't have a job. It will never get to that, weighing things in such a way. And honestly it probably shouldn't.

Again, the amount is inflated by punitive damages, it is not all compensatory.

That means the attributes of the person who was killed by the police are 100% irrelevant. The punitive award is meant to induce policy changes for the city, not to compensate the family for their loss. (that's what compensatory damages are for)

To have any effect, punitive damages have to be large enough for the city to care. So unless you're against the concept of punitive damages (and it's insane if you are), what's the problem?

 

[LegendKiller]

He severed his own spine on purpose?

In all seriousness I thought there was a report that he had tried to injure himself purposely before. Has that now been refuted? Again, not trying to be flippant.

 

[Ackmed]

Again, the amount is inflated by punitive damages, it is not all compensatory.

That means the attributes of the person who was killed by the police are 100% irrelevant. The punitive award is meant to induce policy changes for the city, not to compensate the family for their loss. (that's what compensatory damages are for)

To have any effect, punitive damages have to be large enough for the city to care. So unless you're against the concept of punitive damages (and it's insane if you are), what's the problem?

I understand how that works. There are always different sums brought up though. Which really doesn't make sense. Like stated earlier, this won't be paid by the police, but from citizens through insurance. Unless I am mistaken.

There are reports that police are dictating what they do with the climate right now, like that detective said that got pistol whipped. He thought for a split second about not shooting, and it almost cost him his life. Perhaps This amount will stop further police abuse, perhaps not. Make them think about it before doing something wrong. Rodney King got a ton of money, it's happened since then many times.

I have serious doubts they will get this much, probably settle for less. But I would be interested in hearing how they came up with this figure.

 

[fskimospy]

I understand how that works. There are always different sums brought up though. Which really doesn't make sense. Like stated earlier, this won't be paid by the police, but from citizens through insurance. Unless I am mistaken.

Yes, the taxpayers will pay for it as police officers have qualified immunity. I imagine Baltimore is self insured for this sort of thing, but if they aren't then their premiums will go up. The purpose of the punitive damages isn't to stop THESE police officers from doing it again (they will likely either be fired or never see the streets again), it's to change the internal policies where people who gave 'rough rides' and such were not substantially punished.

I mean the simple act of giving someone a 'rough ride' is an egregious violation of their civil rights. Do you really think Baltimore would have meaningfully punished those guys had Gray survived? I doubt it. That's where these damages come in. Make the city feel the pain so they don't accept that sort of nonsense as okay.

There are reports that police are dictating what they do with the climate right now, like that detective said that got pistol whipped. He thought for a split second about not shooting, and it almost cost him his life. Perhaps This amount will stop further police abuse, perhaps not. Make them think about it before doing something wrong. Rodney King got a ton of money, it's happened since then many times.

I'm happy to hear that police are thinking twice before using lethal force. The number of citizens killed by the police in the United States is MASSIVELY higher than in any other developed country, even when accounting for population differences. That's a problem.

I don't wish harm on any police officer, but the number of cases that have come out showing police officers killing citizens that pose little or no threat to them tells me that we would be well served by an extra helping of caution by the police.

I have serious doubts they will get this much, probably settle for less. But I would be interested in hearing how they came up with this figure.

I have no idea. I'm fine with the award as is though.

 

[LegendKiller]

Yes, the taxpayers will pay for it as police officers have qualified immunity. I imagine Baltimore is self insured for this sort of thing, but if they aren't then their premiums will go up. The purpose of the punitive damages isn't to stop THESE police officers from doing it again (they will likely either be fired or never see the streets again), it's to change the internal policies where people who gave 'rough rides' and such were not substantially punished.

I mean the simple act of giving someone a 'rough ride' is an egregious violation of their civil rights. Do you really think Baltimore would have meaningfully punished those guys had Gray survived? I doubt it. That's where these damages come in. Make the city feel the pain so they don't accept that sort of nonsense as okay.



I'm happy to hear that police are thinking twice before using lethal force. The number of citizens killed by the police in the United States is MASSIVELY higher than in any other developed country, even when accounting for population differences. That's a problem.

I don't wish harm on any police officer, but the number of cases that have come out showing police officers killing citizens that pose little or no threat to them tells me that we would be well served by an extra helping of caution by the police.



I have no idea. I'm fine with the award as is though.

How is the number different when accounting for demographic differences? The vast majority of developed countries are also less diverse.

 

[fskimospy]

How is the number different when accounting for demographic differences? The vast majority of developed countries are also less diverse.

The number is insanely disparate for the US after accounting for demographic differences.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/09/the-counted-police-killings-us-vs-other-countries

I mean it's not even remotely close. We have a serious police violence problem.

 

[LegendKiller]

The number is insanely disparate for the US after accounting for demographic differences.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/09/the-counted-police-killings-us-vs-other-countries

I mean it's not even remotely close. We have a serious police violence problem.

Haven't seen any adjustments for race. Comparing Iceland to stockton?

Iceland has 93% Icelandic and 7% other, most of whom are central European. It also has a 99% literacy rate and far lower unemployment.


Apples to oranges in your link.


Control police shootings for economic, racial, education, criminality of the victim...etc. then get back to me with a real link to a real study that really controls for those variables.

Because without controlling for those variables your claim that it is a police violence problem only is unfounded.

 

[Ackmed]

The number is insanely disparate for the US after accounting for demographic differences.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/09/the-counted-police-killings-us-vs-other-countries

I mean it's not even remotely close. We have a serious police violence problem.

I think he was getting at, what is the demographic of the population of these countries. Are they as diverse as ours? What is the murder rate, as well as other crimes? What is the rate of murders of civilians compared to different countries, not just police deaths. A single statistic doesn't always tell the whole tail.

 

[fskimospy]

Haven't seen any adjustments for race. Comparing Iceland to stockton?

Iceland has 93% Icelandic and 7% other, most of whom are central European. It also has a 99% literacy rate and far lower unemployment.

Apples to oranges in your link.

You have to be joking. For example, whe comparing the US to England and Wales, after controlling for population size and time, the US has an annualized rate of police shootings that is ~7,000% higher. (this assumes that US police shootings are not dramatically under reported, which appears to be an issue)

If you want to think that's because of literacy and unemployment (despite England and Wales often having higher unemployment) and that if our demographics were the same that shootings in the UK would increase 7,000%, I think that's a great example of motivated reasoning.

Control police shootings for economic, racial, education, criminality of the victim...etc. then get back to me with a real link to a real study that really controls for those variables.

No thanks. I am quite confident you would hand wave away that the same way you just hand waved away a 7,000% disparity in police shootings.

 

[fskimospy]

I think he was getting at, what is the demographic of the population of these countries. Are they as diverse as ours? What is the murder rate, as well as other crimes? What is the rate of murders of civilians compared to different countries, not just police deaths. A single statistic doesn't always tell the whole tail.

You're right that a single statistic doesn't tell the whole story. That being said, I look at a lot of public data and I sincerely cannot think of a plausible combination of demographic factors that are going to account for the absolutely massive disparity we see.

 

[Genx87]

In all seriousness I thought there was a report that he had tried to injure himself purposely before. Has that now been refuted? Again, not trying to be flippant.

That was supposedly said by a prisoner in the van. afaik the prisoner in the van took back that claim.

 

[CitizenKain]

LOL.

I don't give a fuck for this family and what they lost. I lived in Baltimore. I worked in the city for 4 years. Freddie Gray and all the others TAKE AWAY from Baltimore. It wouldn't surprise me that throughout his life (if he were alive) he would harm/kill several people directly/indirectly.

I'm sure they miss having another worthless racist in the city. If anything you leaving probably helped.

 

[LegendKiller]

You have to be joking. For example, whe comparing the US to England and Wales, after controlling for population size and time, the US has an annualized rate of police shootings that is ~7,000% higher. (this assumes that US police shootings are not dramatically under reported, which appears to be an issue)

If you want to think that's because of literacy and unemployment (despite England and Wales often having higher unemployment) and that if our demographics were the same that shootings in the UK would increase 7,000%, I think that's a great example of motivated reasoning.



No thanks. I am quite confident you would hand wave away that the same way you just hand waved away a 7,000% disparity in police shootings.

I am going to use your favorite "debate" tactic. You made a claim, you back it up. It is plainly evident that single variable analysis doesn't capture all cogent variables. You made a claim that the r^2 for a single variable (police violence) is near 1. Thus, you should be able to back that claim up by finding a study that controls for economic, demographic, education/literacy...etc.


Should be easy for a guy as smart as you to understand basic multi-variate regression analysis. Right?

And just to twist the knife a but more...I'll repeat. The burden of proof lies with you.

 

[LegendKiller]

You're right that a single statistic doesn't tell the whole story. That being said, I look at a lot of public data and I sincerely cannot think of a plausible combination of demographic factors that are going to account for the absolutely massive disparity we see.

Since you look at so much data such a study should be easily recallable for one of your lofty intelligence. Either that or you should be able to whip up a quick meta data study.

You made the claim, so back it up in a logical manner.

 

[EOM]

Are you guys even talking about the same statistic? Are you talking about police violence(lethal and nonlethal) against the population? Shootings only? People killed by police?

 

[LegendKiller]

Are you guys even talking about the same statistic? Are you talking about police violence(lethal and nonlethal) against the population? Shootings only? People killed by police?

He doesn't even know what he is looking at. He is just trying to make this seem like a police problem, that's it. To do so he makes idiotic comparisons between the us and other "developed" nations that are far less diverse, far more educated on the bottom end, have better full employment, and have more social support and/or flatter economic societies. Thus, his framing is illogical to begin with.

When challenged he falls back to the sputtering sophomoric response of "but the cops are evil" because, despite his "enlightened man" perception of himself and his attempt to categorize me as a bully, he can't back up his retarded claims.

He had no regression analysis that had more than one variable. He is a fucking simple minded POS that cannot think beyond the first order, or beyond one variable.

 

[fskimospy]

I am going to use your favorite "debate" tactic. You made a claim, you back it up.

I already backed it up, you just hand waved it away.

It is plainly evident that single variable analysis doesn't capture all cogent variables. You made a claim that the r^2 for a single variable (police violence) is near 1. Thus, you should be able to back that claim up by finding a study that controls for economic, demographic, education/literacy...etc.

I did not make a claim that r^2 for police violence is near 1. If you think I did, quote me.

Additionally, I'm not sure if you understand what r^2 is. You just said that I should show that the r^2 for a single variable is near 1 by citing a study that includes a bunch of different control variables in their regression. The r^2 value is for the model, not an individual variable. That makes your request nonsensical.

(the actual statistical thing you're looking for is that the p value for a US dummy variable in that regression is <.05)

Anyway, on to what I actually said. I said that it's highly unlikely the variables you mentioned account for a disparity that huge.

Should be easy for a guy as smart as you to understand basic multi-variate regression analysis. Right?

That's funny, considering that from what you wrote it's clear that you don't understand basic multivariate regression, haha.

And just to twist the knife a but more...I'll repeat. The burden of proof lies with you.

Remember, you hand waving things away doesn't make them not there.

 

[fskimospy]

He doesn't even know what he is looking at. He is just trying to make this seem like a police problem, that's it. To do so he makes idiotic comparisons between the us and other "developed" nations that are far less diverse, far more educated on the bottom end, have better full employment, and have more social support and/or flatter economic societies. Thus, his framing is illogical to begin with.

When challenged he falls back to the sputtering sophomoric response of "but the cops are evil" because, despite his "enlightened man" perception of himself and his attempt to categorize me as a bully, he can't back up his retarded claims.

That's awesome that you characterize my response as sophomoric when calling people retarded and trying to straw man my argument as 'the police are evil'.

The unintentional irony there is hilarious.

He had no regression analysis that had more than one variable. He is a fucking simple minded POS that cannot think beyond the first order, or beyond one variable.

I'm going to repeat that from your statements here it seems quite likely that you do not understand what a regression is. You may have read some outputs that other people made and explained to you, but you don't appear to actually understand how to create one or what they mean.

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

At least his family will get off of food stamps now. But no, it seems he was a worthless human being, that did nothing for society. Going by his record anyways.

Cop apologist alert!!!!!!

So human life is worthless? And his crime was what? Carrying a legal knife? Making eye contact with a cop?

Let's just forget the "rough ride" that Baltimore cops have been doing for 20+ years to people, and intentionally injuring them. Do you deny that they do that?

But yes, lets just forget all the cop abuses and criminal activity and whitewash it with a "he's a worthless human being".

Amazing bigotry in your post, truly amazing.

 

[LegendKiller]

I already backed it up, you just hand waved it away.



I did not make a claim that r^2 for police violence is near 1. If you think I did, quote me.

Additionally, I'm not sure if you understand what r^2 is. You just said that I should show that the r^2 for a single variable is near 1 by citing a study that includes a bunch of different control variables in their regression. The r^2 value is for the model, not an individual variable. That makes your request nonsensical.

(the actual statistical thing you're looking for is that the p value for a US dummy variable in that regression is <.05)

Anyway, on to what I actually said. I said that it's highly unlikely the variables you mentioned account for a disparity that huge.



That's funny, considering that from what you wrote it's clear that you don't understand basic multivariate regression, haha.



Remember, you hand waving things away doesn't make them not there.

Under your model there is only one variable. Hence r^2 = 1

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

Which actions are those? I have yet to see whether these cops, who are INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY, have actually been *FOUND GUILTY*.

I have yet to see Freddie Grey convicted of anything in the activities that led to his murder. In fact, didn't the DA drop all the made-up charges the cops tried to dump on him to cover themselves?

So he is INNOCENT UNTIL FOUND GUILTY as well right?

Or does that only apply to cops?

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Haven't seen any adjustments for race. Comparing Iceland to stockton?

Iceland has 93% Icelandic and 7% other, most of whom are central European. It also has a 99% literacy rate and far lower unemployment.

I think you've stumbled into the answer; clearly we need to replace the people in Stockton with Icelanders. That oughta clean that violence right up. Diversity is the real enemy.

 

[fskimospy]

Under your model there is only one variable. Hence r^2 = 1

There is not only one variable under my model. I asked you to quote me as to where I said that, but you haven't done that yet. Is there a reason? This will be a particularly weird thing for you to say, considering I explicitly called out how I didn't think other IVs would exert sufficient influence to take away the disparity. (meaning that I was considering multiple IVs)

Again though, you asked me to support your invented contention of mine that r^2 for a single variable was close to 1 by citing a study that had a model including lots of other IVs in their model. Even if you hadn't been bullshitting about my argument that's a nonsensical request, as the r^2 from their study would be the r^2 for a model including lots of IVs, not just one. This would mean that you expected me to cite a study that was done incompetently by including a lot of extraneous variables in their regression that by definition couldn't have contributed to the model fit, or you didn't understand what r^2 is and how it applies here. Not to mention you were attempting to have me cite a model where a binary IV had a perfect r^2 with a non-binary DV. That's ridiculous on its face.

What you should have asked about was p values, just so you know for the future.

What you were really trying to do was put one by either me or other people by hoping they didn't know enough about statistics to call you on your bullshit.