mugs
Lifer
- Apr 29, 2003
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What does serving the the military have to do with anything?
That is an emotional argument, and it is irrelevant. Hey, I'm with you on illegal immigration. But unlike you I'm not a Mexican-hating xenophobe. If the government wants Mexicans to come here and work for cheap because they think they help our economy, then they should remove the barriers that prevent most Mexicans from coming here legally.
In the meantime, they're here. And if they want to educate themselves, I think that's a good thing.
- Jun 5, 2000
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Originally posted by: mugs
What does serving the the military have to do with anything?
Hey, I'm with you on illegal immigration. But unlike you I'm not a Mexican-hating xenophobe. If the government wants Mexicans to come here and work for cheap because they think they help our economy, then they should remove the barriers that prevent most Mexicans from coming here legally.
In the meantime, they're here. And if they want to educate themselves, I think that's a good thing.
I am not a Mexican hating xenophobe. The whole cheap labor argument is crap. its corporations who want the cheap labor for bigger profits and it is hurting our economy a whole lot more than helping it. those cheap labors do not get paid a livable wage, they are not stimulating our economy by buying new cars, new appliances, a new HDTV. they are sending that money back to Mexico by the billions. having a healthy economy is having workers getting paid a livable wage where they can buy stuff that contribute to a local/state sales tax and transfers the money to a business to pay their workers. I really can not fathom how you can say cheap labor is good for our economy. :roll:
Triumph
Lifer
- Oct 9, 1999
- 15,031
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The ones that you refer to when you say that they'd be perfectly willing to pay their way if they were allowed to. I suppose that to mean pay taxes, pay social security, pay for health care, pay for emergency services, pay for roads, etc. You know, those things that we the legal citizens pay for and reap the benefits of.
Well if they live in-state that is no big deal. If they are receiving Federal Financial Aid that might be an issue of fraud depending on the rules from the FEDS. What the state wants to do is up to the state. If you want to protest, dont go to school there.
At any large university or college, you can expect to see people from outside of the United States. So it is hard to say what is fair and what is not fair. How come you could not go to a College or University in your own state?
At any large university or college, you can expect to see people from outside of the United States. So it is hard to say what is fair and what is not fair. How come you could not go to a College or University in your own state?
Rustler
Golden Member
- Jan 14, 2004
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An Illegal Alien hit and ran and killed an American citizen here in Arizona. Tax dollars should not go to pay for childern who are here not by their choice, but by their parents illegal entry into this country. They can still get an education, the only thing is that they have to pay out of state tuition.
silverpig
Lifer
- Jul 29, 2001
- 27,703
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In/out is semantics. There are two sides to a wall. Whichever you label 'in' and 'out' is arbitrary.
For example, you could say the wall would be to keep Mexicans 'in' Mexico.
The Berlin wall was built by the Soviets around West Berlin to keep the people living in East Germany 'out' of the West-controlled part of the city. Or 'in' the east. Whichever way you want to say it.
Well, see my metaphor is dead on...you just don't see it yet.
You are right, illegals are not "eating for free"...they are eating on the dime of other people....much like the party goers I would bring to your home.
According to you : would be perfectly happy to pay their way if it was allowed to them....really now,...you're sure about that?
How is that so when:
#1- there is a great opportunity for them to do this through the legal means to get here, but they choose not to follow the proper guidelines to get into this country legally?
#2- how do you explain all the illegal gang members in this country...isn't that kind of an oxymoron?.....you say they want to be here legally, and pay their own way, yet when they cross our border illegally...they join gangs and partake in illegal activities....doesn't sound like someone that wants to be on the up and up does it?
#3- They come here because it is the path of least resistance...it is much easier for them to come to this country where everything from the S.S. system, welfare system and all the other opportunities are offered for them to take advantage, then it is for them to stay in their own country and make it better than what it is for themselves and their children.
You don't see any one from this country trying to illegally sneak into Mexico now do you? Why do you suppose that is?
It's because their infrastructure sucks...instead of staying there and trying to fix it over the past several hundred years, they would rather sneak into this country where they can take advantage of all that we have to offer and everything else that is already established, all they have to do is be able bodied enough to stroll across the border.
Fern
Elite Member
- Sep 30, 2003
- 26,907
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Is the "illegal" student, or their parents, a resident of Colorado?
How does this work, does CO grant all out-of-state illegals in-state tuition?
Why would foreigners, whether legal or illegal residents in the US, receive better treatment than US citizens from CO?
Why would the taxpayers of CO want to subsize the education of foreigners?
This sounds kinda nutty to me.
Fern
Rustler
Golden Member
- Jan 14, 2004
- 1,253
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1. Introduce federal ID cards with biometric information encoded into it.
2. Develop system so employers can verify legal status of all applicants.
3. Shut down businesses that knowingly employ illegals, and confiscate all their assets.
4. Create seasonal work permits for workers wanting to do farm work.
5. Accept that prices on some services will go up, since we'll have to pay a fair wage for said services.
6. Any illegals here now with kids born here stay, barring a criminal record. Any new illegals that come here to have kids will be thrown out, along with their kids.
7. Deport anyone caught that is illegal immediately. No hearings, no lawyers.
Heavily militarize the border.
8. Problem solved.
excellent, Mxylplyx
2. Develop system so employers can verify legal status of all applicants.
3. Shut down businesses that knowingly employ illegals, and confiscate all their assets.
4. Create seasonal work permits for workers wanting to do farm work.
5. Accept that prices on some services will go up, since we'll have to pay a fair wage for said services.
6. Any illegals here now with kids born here stay, barring a criminal record. Any new illegals that come here to have kids will be thrown out, along with their kids.
7. Deport anyone caught that is illegal immediately. No hearings, no lawyers.
Heavily militarize the border.
8. Problem solved.
excellent, Mxylplyx
So
Lifer
- Jul 2, 2001
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If they came here legally (i.e. if we fix the system) and refused to pay their taxes, then we can deport them
Not true at all, every year, the quota is filled within minutes of it opening.
Show me some statistics that illegal immigrants commit crimes not related to their citizenship status at a higher per capita rate than other people of similar socio-economic status. I suspect you'll them at or below the average. Even if not, putting people on the wrong side of the law to start certainly makes it less of a leap to fall in with criminal elements.
this is a red herring, it's not directly related to the question of justification for illegal immigration.
So
Lifer
- Jul 2, 2001
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Do you people actually believe that such a massive expansion of government power is worth it to stop people from getting into the country? How can anyone possibly think whatever meager economic benefit they imagine from ease of burden on social programs will outweigh the costs and non financial negatives of the crap?
Who's to decide what is meager? Pro illegals think no wrongs can be done by illegals, more the better. Anti Illegals disagree.
I don't think expansion of too much government is good either. But we don't need that. If we just put National guards along the border with blackhawks, UAV, some heavy firepower to fight Mexican wild drug lords, it'd done a whole lot already.
And yes, get rid of anchor baby clause, and jail employers who hired Illegals. That would make a big difference.
I understand your frustration. I know based on experience that if the people coming here illegally had the means to do things legally, which weren't too unreasonable, they would do it. Heck, I even know people who became legal and are happy to pay taxes. They see it as their contribution to a country that has given them great opportunities. No one likes to live in the shadows and in fear of being reported.
mugs
Lifer
- Apr 29, 2003
- 48,920
- 46
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Originally posted by: Citrix
Originally posted by: mugs
What does serving the the military have to do with anything?
Hey, I'm with you on illegal immigration. But unlike you I'm not a Mexican-hating xenophobe. If the government wants Mexicans to come here and work for cheap because they think they help our economy, then they should remove the barriers that prevent most Mexicans from coming here legally.
In the meantime, they're here. And if they want to educate themselves, I think that's a good thing.
I am not a Mexican hating xenophobe.
Yeah, you really are. You have made many posts about this stuff, and they have NOT been limited to illegal immigration. I recall Mill thoroughly owning you in one thread where you were bitching about sample ballots in Spanish or something like that. That had nothing to do with illegal immigration as Mill explained to you, but you couldn't see past your blinding hatred of people whose names end with a 'z'.
Please show me where in my post that I indicated my opinion on whether Mexican labor benefits or hurts the economy. Oh that's right, I didn't. :roll: Regarding how much money they send back to Mexico - that pales in comparison to how much Walmart shoppers are sending to China. We import shitty electronics from China, and we import landscapers and housekeepers and drywallers from Mexico.
#1-so your answer to the problem is to just have an open boarder policy...after all, anyone that wants in should be let in...is that your idea? Just open the floodgates and let them all come over and as soon as their feet hit American soil *poof* they are American citizens?
Why the hell should we?...if you were not fortunate enough to be born in this country and be an American citizen.....sorry about your luck. Perhaps the next time around you might get lucky be born to someone like Donald Trump. Your unfortunate life is not something I necessarily want to pay for...much like everyone else in the world I have my own problems to deal with and if I am going to give my money away to anyone it will be my family and friends...not someone who broke the law to get here in the first place.
#2- All you need to do it look at the prison system to see the number of illegals that are incarcerated.
#3- So...you are trying to justify the whole illegal immigration thing...is that what I am getting from this? Nice.
My original post was to answer the question about how we could cost effectively secure our borders. The government seems to think some kind if high-tech wonder fence is the answer....that will cost several million dollars.
My way is much cheaper and serves several purposes. We have a right to secure our border......just because there are people in a country that is south of us that have the unfortunate luck of the draw to be born into a country that cares nothing about them and they refuse to do anything about it, does not negate the fact that we can and should exercise the right to secure our territory.
You lock the door to your home do you not? Why should this be any different?
PieIsAwesome
Diamond Member
- Feb 11, 2007
- 4,054
- 1
- 0
Niece lives out of state, so she pays out of state.
Said illegal lives in-state, so she pays in-state.
How is the illegal getting more benefits than a citizen?
Said illegal lives in-state, so she pays in-state.
How is the illegal getting more benefits than a citizen?
Rustler
Golden Member
- Jan 14, 2004
- 1,253
- 1
- 81
Being an illegal means that you would not be a citizen of the USA or resident of the state that he/she is in so if they are getting instate tuition then they are recieving cheaper schooling. Arizona voted prop 300 which denies any public assistance to illegal aliens.
So
Lifer
- Jul 2, 2001
- 25,923
- 17
- 81
No, that isn't how it works. Citizenship != Residency. You think everyone whoe went through ellis island was a citizen? No, they were just legal residents.
You keep saying "broke the law", but these people aren't criminals in any real sense, as much as you want to justify your anti-immigrant stance by it. The fact is, cheap labor benefits all of us. Yes, there is some point where we are overpopulated, but it is a much higher number than our current 300 million.
That's still not an answer. Unless and until I see real data showing that mexican immigrants are statistically more likely to commit crimes than others of some social status, and you've factored out the effect of making them criminals by default for comig here, then I'll change my position. Until then, calling them all criminals is basically bigoted. I hate to play that card, but that's what it boils down to.
This isn't an actual argument. Yes, I feel that our immigration policy is wholly irrational.
Youkeep jumping to this silly "house" metaphor. It makes no sense. A nation is fundamentally a different beast from a single family residence. You can't make national policy based on such spurious reasoning.
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