So whats the deal with Bose?

[Dubb]

Originally posted by: Goosemaster


Basically, good booksehelves on stands and a nice sub resutls in an auible paradise.

Of course this is just my opinion, but I think I'd be happier with higher quality speakers and no sub. sub integration is tricky, and most (even very high end) seem to affect the sound in a negative way. it's like the speakers have one character and the sub has another, and it's hard to get them to work together. I'd rather have speakers that reach down around 40hz of good quality bass on their own

then again, my focus is music (2ch), movies are a different monster altogether.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: spidey07
I don't buy the "sub/sat system" limitations. Sure there are limitations, but a decent sub/sat system can still sound very good. In fact for home theater applications it has advantages over a tower.

But the fact remains that the bose systems do not reproduce music well, nor do they have bass at a cost that is simply ridiculous.

For 2000 bucks one could get a 1400 speaker system (400 sub, 1000 speakers) and a 600 dollar receiver and it would sound fabulous. Oh, and said receiver would also be able to accept other video/music sources, control your TV, etc - all from one remote. That sounds like simplicity to me.

For size, there are numerous subs out there that are small and produce butt shaking low bass. But most importantly they produce it with minimal distortion - the bose accustimass simply pounds out distorted midbass rumble.

My next home theater will be a satellite for the mains, because I can get a much better sat for the money over a tower. The polk LSi 9s come to mind, with a larger SVS sub. Or maybe B&W nautilus. Or maybe the smaller martin logans.

But think about it - if one wants audio advice they ask ones who know about it. Same with any other purchase - cars, computers, video (shouldn't one look at specs, etc when purchasing a TV?), vacuum cleane.

Spidey,

Read AVS, Audioreview or any of the larger forums dedicated to home theater....ask about Sub/Sat combos and see what kind of responses you get....I have been doing research for quite a while now and I can say first hand that 99.99% of participants say that all speakers which do not have at least a 5 1/4" woofer will have various frequency gaps and sound poor when compared to bookshelf or larger systems....many if not all will say that the only advantage they have over tower based systems is from an aesthetic or space saving standpoint and nothing more...

Also it depends on what your talking about with your $2000, last I checked their Acoustimass 15 system was $1,500 which is $500 less than your 2K quote, about on par with the price of Mirage omnisats and a subwoofer and many other speakers...now if you are talking about their lifestyle setups then yes I agree they are a waste of money and very expensive. I think from your description you are talking about the lifestyle system and not the speakers themselves.

Polk especailly with their small sattelites are often regarded to as being near crap...not familiar with their product line as from reading the various negative reviews I have for the most part written them off.

With regards to advice and who to ask...while generally I think you are correct I also think that often times enthusiasts aren't the right people to ask if you yourself are not an enthusiast as what they value you might not and often times enthusiasts are not able to curb their thoughts/opinions to benefit "your" needs vs what they think you need or should have...great example is when people come here asking what is a good pre built pc for them to buy at a low cost and the amount of responses they get that if they don't build their own pc then they are stupid....ultimately the person gets no help with their question and just goes it one their own....

Bozack,

I spend plenty of time on avsforum. everyday for about the last three years and have actually been into audio for the last 20+ years. I'm intimately familiar with the pros and cons of bookshelf/satellite speakers vs floor standers and I'm sure you realize it is still a hot debate between the two. Still the fact is you can get more speaker for you money with a bookself/sat (at the sacrifice of low bass).

Also the polk LSi line is highly regarded and very musical and should not be compared to the crap they've been cranking out for the last 10 years.

If you need any help with any audio purchase pm me or pm me on avsforum (same username). If you're actually looking to puchase the best thing to do is take your favorite music and listen to what floats your boat.

 

[0roo0roo]

meh, the only place where i see rapid advancement in audio is computer speakers though. look at how far they've come, and how fast, and with prices so low to boot. gotta love real competition. just look at car audio and "audiophile" audio.. prices stay the same.. stuff doesn't change much.

 

[Goosemaster]

Originally posted by: Dubb

Originally posted by: Goosemaster


Basically, good booksehelves on stands and a nice sub resutls in an auible paradise.

Of course this is just my opinion, but I think I'd be happier with higher quality speakers and no sub. sub integration is tricky, and most (even very high end) seem to affect the sound in a negative way. it's like the speakers have one character and the sub has another, and it's hard to get them to work together. I'd rather have speakers that reach down around 40hz of good quality bass on their own

then again, my focus is music (2ch), movies are a different monster altogether.

It is indeed tricky. With a little bit of demoing and a lot of research, I pulled it off. Also, make sure not to rely on your speakers specs adamently. Those specs sometimes say+- a few decibels whe nthey bottom out, so always set your crossover a little higher. My mirages for example state that they can handle 45hz, while realistically, that translates into about 50-60hz at a demanding volume. becasue ofthis I set the crossovers at 80hz so they can breath and tackle the highs with all they've got

<--music fanatic.

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Well, judging by your defensive position I just figured you for a sucker...er I mean another happy Bose customer.

No Jules not I....

I also don't think I would consider my position defensive....I like Bose design in terms of looks and the idea they are made in my home state but their price is something of a turnoff.

 

[spidey07]

meh, 80hz is too high to crossover IMHO - try 50-60 unless the mirages can't handle the bass levels your asking for. I can still here the sub and locate the bass at 80hz.

Then again I also like stereo bass which is why my 2 channel system is full range to 25 hz (logan).

But we're getting off topic here.

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: Goosemaster

Don't listen to these robots. Your argument is quite logical, and I understand where you are coming from.

Bose is not crap. It is simply a product that caters to un-audio-educated masses.

Hell, the only reason my parents would see their flaw would be ebcause they listen to my system, my dad ahs designed and built a few HT's for people minus the equipment, and they have see gone to see me play live time and time again.

Thanks goose, always good talking to someone logical who can see both sides of the coin.

 

[DerwenArtos12]

Ok, i have bose in my video room and I love therr speakers. I have the minature cube speakers(don't know hte actual name as i got them from my dad w/o a box) I ignored their wiring instruction and just made my own moster cables to run the speakers right off my reciver and tehy soudn fine. Now, there bases suck, I ended up replacing the single passive base with two 170w powered KLH basses. not fort the wattage but they have good sound projection, i only run each at roughly half power. I have all the speakers connected to an Onkyo Tx-NR801 that is wonderful, especially because it has the ethernet so i can play my mp3's off my computer in the other room. The speakers get a bad rap but i love them. I have 8 of them in a 7.2 surround. With movies that actually have some good surround like T3 the onkyo does a great job of pushing sound through all the speakers, you really hear cars go by you it is great. as for loss of dialogue clarity that is absolutely false, period. The cubes aren's plastic BTW they are composite wood. I had one go on me cause I had the system cranked up way too loud so i opened it up to se what actually blew so I know for a hones to god fact they are not just plastic cubes.

 

[apac]

If the "pro-Bose" threads on avsforum.com are so numerous, why haven't you found one yet?

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: apac

My point is that I can't post a new thread there (like you suggested) because it's already been beaten to death, but I will show you the existing proof that supports every arguement against Bose. If you had actually taken the time to READ those posts, you'll see that from a both price and quality standpoint, every other HTiB or small satellite system is superior. I'll quote one section from the first page:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's from a consumer standpoint, not an audiophiles. Show me a thread there that supports your point. Keep in mind I said thread, not post, because one persons opinion doesn't reflect the masses. I just quoted that single post because 99% of the replies on that thread also support this opinion.

Apac,

I have read more than a few bose related threads on more than just the AVS forum and really your argument is kind of weak, I have read some say that they prefer bose to sony, pioneer and other low end HTIB setups but feel the price is too much and I have also read things like which you speak of where people feel cheap systems sound better....sound to some degree is subjective and dependant on the listener.

Read spideys response below and you will see that small speakers vs. larger is a hot button issue in the audio world, so while I could find a post or two honestly it isn't worth my time to do so.

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: apac
If the "pro-Bose" threads on avsforum.com are so numerous, why haven't you found one yet?

Apac I never said you would find a "pro bose thread"....again might I suggest working on your reading comprehension...instead what I said was that you will see all micro or sub sat systems have the same criticisms brought against them as does Bose...more specifically, audiophiles feel that these style systems do a poor job at accuratly reproducing sound at an exhorbitant cost when compared to less expensive bookshelf or larger sized speakers....

Furthermore many in the audio community feel that any speaker with a driver smaller than 5 1/4" cannot and will never be able to produce decent sound which means that virtually all sub sat systems in their eyes are inferior.

I never said Bose was looked at favorably, if anything due to their pricing and mass market appeal it is quite the opposite, what I did say was that other brands and or speakers can have the same criticisms brought against them.

 

[apac]

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: apac

My point is that I can't post a new thread there (like you suggested) because it's already been beaten to death, but I will show you the existing proof that supports every arguement against Bose. If you had actually taken the time to READ those posts, you'll see that from a both price and quality standpoint, every other HTiB or small satellite system is superior. I'll quote one section from the first page:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's from a consumer standpoint, not an audiophiles. Show me a thread there that supports your point. Keep in mind I said thread, not post, because one persons opinion doesn't reflect the masses. I just quoted that single post because 99% of the replies on that thread also support this opinion.

Apac,

I have read more than a few bose related threads on more than just the AVS forum and really your argument is kind of weak, I have read some say that they prefer bose to sony, pioneer and other low end HTIB setups but feel the price is too much and I have also read things like which you speak of where people feel cheap systems sound better....sound to some degree is subjective and dependant on the listener.

Read spideys response below and you will see that small speakers vs. larger is a hot button issue in the audio world, so while I could find a post or two honestly it isn't worth my time to do so.

Oh, I think we're debating 2 different topics here. Small bookshelf lines by Polk and other manufacturers can be great for their price. There's nothing wrong with using a satellite/sub system.

However, you said that people found the Bose's too expensive. When you compare 2 sets of speakers, or manufacturers, you compare the ones within your price brackett. If I went out to the local HT store with $500 looking to buy a HT system, sure I could go to the most expensive display and say "hey those sound better, but they cost too much".

So since that specific Bose product was more than the Pioneer HTiB systems, demo the Pioneer to some of the lower priced Bose stuff, or vice versa. Otherwise you're comparing apples and oranges. I haven't ever researched buying a Bose system so I don't know how far down the prices reach.

edit- wow bad typos heh.

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: spidey07
Bozack,

I spend plenty of time on avsforum. everyday for about the last three years and have actually been into audio for the last 20+ years. I'm intimately familiar with the pros and cons of bookshelf/satellite speakers vs floor standers and I'm sure you realize it is still a hot debate between the two. Still the fact is you can get more speaker for you money with a bookself/sat (at the sacrifice of low bass).

Also the polk LSi line is highly regarded and very musical and should not be compared to the crap they've been cranking out for the last 10 years.

If you need any help with any audio purchase pm me or pm me on avsforum (same username). If you're actually looking to puchase the best thing to do is take your favorite music and listen to what floats your boat.

Hmm I wonder if we have bumped into each other over there then as I don't go by this handle but instead my other one as Mathew J.....honestly I am rather tired with AVS and many other audio communities as a good deal of the contributors such as artisn are complete and utter a-holes IMHO and the number of a-holes to normal guys/gals unfortunately is growing.....

Also I think you group bookshelfs and sats togther whereas I seperate the two and put bookshelfs more in line with floorstanders...when I think of sats the HSU Ventriloquists, Keff Eggs, Orbs, Omnisats, Canton Movie series and others come to mind....when you say bookshelf I think of anything with a 5 1/4 driver or larger to which I agree you get alot of speaker for the money but one cannot compare even a bookshelf performance to that of a small sat due to the much larger size.

Actually I am not a big music person and if I were I would go with a stereo setup instead of the 5.1s I have been looking into, I will be sure to hit you up if I can think of anything or if I am getting ready to buy.

Thanks

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: apac
Oh, I think we're debating 2 different topics here. Small bookshelf lines by Polk and other manufacturers can be great for their price. There's nothing wrong with using a satellite/sub system.

However, you said that people found the Bose's too expensive. When you compare 2 sets of speakers, or manufacturers, you compare the ones within your price brackett. If I went out to the local HT store with $500 looking to buy a HT system, sure I could go to the most expensive display and say "hey those sound better, but they cost too much".

So since that specific Bose product was more than the Pioneer HTiB systems, demo the Pioneer to some of the lower priced Bose stuff, or vice versa. Otherwise you're comparing apples and oranges. I haven't ever researched buying a Bose system so I don't know how far down the prices reach.

edit- wow bad typos heh.

Again though you mention bookshelves...I guess I should be more specific when I say "sub/sat" in that I mean micro sats such as the Klipsch cinema series, the Athena Micra or even the small Polk 6700 series...

With price I am talking about people into audio who were just demoing....they demoed bose against cheaper sony and other HTIB systems and generally the concensus was that the Bose did sound better than the japanese systems but the price was not worth the slight increase in sound quality....generally Bose start at around $700 for their smallest system and go up to about $1500 when looking at their speaker packages only, not their systems which have dvd players and such which are consideably more.

 

[Goosemaster]

Originally posted by: DerwenArtos12
Ok, i have bose in my video room and I love therr speakers. I have the minature cube speakers(don't know hte actual name as i got them from my dad w/o a box) I ignored their wiring instruction and just made my own moster cables to run the speakers right off my reciver and tehy soudn fine. Now, there bases suck, I ended up replacing the single passive base with two 170w powered KLH basses. not fort the wattage but they have good sound projection, i only run each at roughly half power. I have all the speakers connected to an Onkyo Tx-NR801 that is wonderful, especially because it has the ethernet so i can play my mp3's off my computer in the other room. The speakers get a bad rap but i love them. I have 8 of them in a 7.2 surround. With movies that actually have some good surround like T3 the onkyo does a great job of pushing sound through all the speakers, you really hear cars go by you it is great. as for loss of dialogue clarity that is absolutely false, period. The cubes aren's plastic BTW they are composite wood. I had one go on me cause I had the system cranked up way too loud so i opened it up to se what actually blew so I know for a hones to god fact they are not just plastic cubes.

Well then, we are just different types of people, and thus, different types of consumers.

I, for example, instantly judge a classical music recording and its presentation VERY hasrshly. Then again, I consistently played in massive orchestras taking part in numerous pieces such as Carmen, that are the epitome of demanding audio. So, when I sit down, everything is in comaparison to the real thing, which creates demanding requirements. This is precisely why, from the first note, I can tell you what the piece will be, even when I have multiple versions. I am just "into" that because having to be perfectly in tune and having to recognize intonnation etc for more than a decade with a hundred people in an orchestra was never under debate.


Of course that is just a personal example, but my point is that with music, the requirements might be set much higher for musicans than otherwise.


Regarding surround sound, you need is a bunch of matching speakers, a nice reciever or amp (nice choice BTW ) and a good loud, matching sub. While the novice or indifferent consumer might be fine with certain speakers, the demanding listener will be looking for realism instead of shock &amp; awe. n my case, most of my stuff is in stereo, so I don't need surround sound. It's not for everyone, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

 

[apac]

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: apac
Oh, I think we're debating 2 different topics here. Small bookshelf lines by Polk and other manufacturers can be great for their price. There's nothing wrong with using a satellite/sub system.

However, you said that people found the Bose's too expensive. When you compare 2 sets of speakers, or manufacturers, you compare the ones within your price brackett. If I went out to the local HT store with $500 looking to buy a HT system, sure I could go to the most expensive display and say "hey those sound better, but they cost too much".

So since that specific Bose product was more than the Pioneer HTiB systems, demo the Pioneer to some of the lower priced Bose stuff, or vice versa. Otherwise you're comparing apples and oranges. I haven't ever researched buying a Bose system so I don't know how far down the prices reach.

edit- wow bad typos heh.

Again though you mention bookshelves...I guess I should be more specific when I say "sub/sat" in that I mean micro sats such as the Klipsch cinema series, the Athena Micra or even the small Polk 6700 series...

With price I am talking about people into audio who were just demoing....they demoed bose against cheaper sony and other HTIB systems and generally the concensus was that the Bose did sound better than the japanese systems but the price was not worth the slight increase in sound quality....generally Bose start at around $700 for their smallest system and go up to about $1500 when looking at their speaker packages only, not their systems which have dvd players and such which are consideably more.

OK now we're getting somewhere. I meant that small satellite systems can sound good, I'm not arguing against that. Most audiophiles are biased against Bose because they have much more refined taste. I won't deny that.

However anyone who doesn't compare the same type of products is also biased. IIRC the Pioneer HTiB systems cost ~$500, where the Bose costs $700+. You can't compare them because they are, as I said, apples and oranges.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: SuRgEoN
I love Bose. I have an awesome Bose sound system in my car. I do agree though, prices are a little high, but I've received nothing but great quality, so no complaints here.

Evidently you don't know what really good quality sound is.

I have a Bose factory system, and even with a subwoofer it puts out less bass than my 2yr old daughter's voice.
It sounds okay, but to say it it really good, nope.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: Skiguy411
What is your opinion on JBL?

some of their stuff is OK but most of their consumer grade stuff as found at BB or CC sucks...

And every bit of it is still better than Bose.

Every HTIB you can get for 500 bucks at BB or CC is much better than any Bose HT setup.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: apac
However anyone who doesn't compare the same type of products is also biased. IIRC the Pioneer HTiB systems cost ~$500, where the Bose costs $700+. You can't compare them because they are, as I said, apples and oranges.

Yeah, apples and oranges meaning that the Pioneer is cheaper AND blows the Bose away.

Bose: Better sound through marketing.

 

[Taejin]

If Bose priced their products more realistically, and hyped it up, I would not be as adamant against Bose.

The fact is, Bose knowingly lies to their customers. They mark up their crap to sky high levels, and LIE to the average joe. They LIE to the housewives and hardworking Americans who want a better sound system, and they smile like the oily b*tches they are and take the money without so much as a whiff of regret!

They have no compunction, no morals, and no heart. They have NO interest in bringing better audio, they are just fleecing the average consumer for thousands of dollars, and laughing at the "suckers" each time they rake in another lost newbie.

I hate people like that, and by extension, I hate companies like that. I cannot believe you, BOZACK, swagger into this thread and attempt to defend Bose, trying to justify their idiotic prices by telling us that a few hundred to a thousand more dollars justify "pretty", "small form factor" and "comfort". What Bose is doing is wrong, and they deserve to be ruined for hoodwinking hard working Americans of their money with an inferior product.

You are wrong Bozack, period. Your arguments are inherently flawed, and you are doing nothing but playing Devil's Advocate.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: DerwenArtos12
Ok, i have bose in my video room and I love therr speakers. I have the minature cube speakers(don't know hte actual name as i got them from my dad w/o a box) I ignored their wiring instruction and just made my own moster cables to run the speakers right off my reciver and tehy soudn fine. Now, there bases suck, I ended up replacing the single passive base with two 170w powered KLH basses. not fort the wattage but they have good sound projection, i only run each at roughly half power. I have all the speakers connected to an Onkyo Tx-NR801 that is wonderful, especially because it has the ethernet so i can play my mp3's off my computer in the other room. The speakers get a bad rap but i love them. I have 8 of them in a 7.2 surround. With movies that actually have some good surround like T3 the onkyo does a great job of pushing sound through all the speakers, you really hear cars go by you it is great. as for loss of dialogue clarity that is absolutely false, period. The cubes aren's plastic BTW they are composite wood. I had one go on me cause I had the system cranked up way too loud so i opened it up to se what actually blew so I know for a hones to god fact they are not just plastic cubes.

I can go full volume on my Klipsch RF-3's with almost no distortion. Just clean loud sound. I'm driving them with a Harmon Kardon AVR-500 receiver. I have the RC-3 center, 2 KSB 1.1 rear speakers and a KSW10 sub. For my entire setup I probably spent close to $2k for it. Well worth it though. You can get so much more for the same money as a Bose system costs. It's a no brainer as far as I'm concerned.

My .02. YMMV.

 

[apac]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: DerwenArtos12
Ok, i have bose in my video room and I love therr speakers. I have the minature cube speakers(don't know hte actual name as i got them from my dad w/o a box) I ignored their wiring instruction and just made my own moster cables to run the speakers right off my reciver and tehy soudn fine. Now, there bases suck, I ended up replacing the single passive base with two 170w powered KLH basses. not fort the wattage but they have good sound projection, i only run each at roughly half power. I have all the speakers connected to an Onkyo Tx-NR801 that is wonderful, especially because it has the ethernet so i can play my mp3's off my computer in the other room. The speakers get a bad rap but i love them. I have 8 of them in a 7.2 surround. With movies that actually have some good surround like T3 the onkyo does a great job of pushing sound through all the speakers, you really hear cars go by you it is great. as for loss of dialogue clarity that is absolutely false, period. The cubes aren's plastic BTW they are composite wood. I had one go on me cause I had the system cranked up way too loud so i opened it up to se what actually blew so I know for a hones to god fact they are not just plastic cubes.

I can go full volume on my Klipsch RF-3's with almost no distortion. Just clean loud sound. I'm driving them with a Harmon Kardon AVR-500 receiver. I have the RC-3 center, 2 KSB 1.1 rear speakers and a KSW10 sub. For my entire setup I probably spent close to $2k for it. Well worth it though. You can get so much more for the same money as a Bose system costs. It's a no brainer as far as I'm concerned.

My .02. YMMV.

I <3 my Klipsch Reference. Every time I hear them if makes the investment feel so much better.

 

[Goosemaster]

Originally posted by: Taejin
If Bose priced their products more realistically, and hyped it up, I would not be as adamant against Bose.

The fact is, Bose knowingly lies to their customers. They mark up their crap to sky high levels, and LIE to the average joe. They LIE to the housewives and hardworking Americans who want a better sound system, and they smile like the oily b*tches they are and take the money without so much as a whiff of regret!

They have no compunction, no morals, and no heart. They have NO interest in bringing better audio, they are just fleecing the average consumer for thousands of dollars, and laughing at the "suckers" each time they rake in another lost newbie.

I hate people like that, and by extension, I hate companies like that. I cannot believe you, BOZACK, swagger into this thread and attempt to defend Bose, trying to justify their idiotic prices by telling us that a few hundred to a thousand more dollars justify "pretty", "small form factor" and "comfort". What Bose is doing is wrong, and they deserve to be ruined for hoodwinking hard working Americans of their money with an inferior product.

You are wrong Bozack, period. Your arguments are inherently flawed, and you are doing nothing but playing Devil's Advocate.

LOL...you people are hilarious.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: Goosemaster

Originally posted by: Taejin
If Bose priced their products more realistically, and hyped it up, I would not be as adamant against Bose.

The fact is, Bose knowingly lies to their customers. They mark up their crap to sky high levels, and LIE to the average joe. They LIE to the housewives and hardworking Americans who want a better sound system, and they smile like the oily b*tches they are and take the money without so much as a whiff of regret!

They have no compunction, no morals, and no heart. They have NO interest in bringing better audio, they are just fleecing the average consumer for thousands of dollars, and laughing at the "suckers" each time they rake in another lost newbie.

I hate people like that, and by extension, I hate companies like that. I cannot believe you, BOZACK, swagger into this thread and attempt to defend Bose, trying to justify their idiotic prices by telling us that a few hundred to a thousand more dollars justify "pretty", "small form factor" and "comfort". What Bose is doing is wrong, and they deserve to be ruined for hoodwinking hard working Americans of their money with an inferior product.

You are wrong Bozack, period. Your arguments are inherently flawed, and you are doing nothing but playing Devil's Advocate.

LOL...You, good sir, are correct.

Fixed.

 

[NutBucket]

I have a pair of 201 bookshelfs that I asked for maybe 8 years ago for my birthday. Now I can look back and realize what a huge waste of money they were. Sorry mom