Should Democrats take Manchin's small ball deal?

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
69,506
5,065
126

I would like to hear what you would think would happen if Democrats went on strike and said to the Public you either get rid of people like Manchin and enough Republicans to for us to move real legislation or force him and the rest of the obstructive activists to change their attitude or we will do exactly what they are doing, nothing at all. No budget, no bills of any kind are going to pass. If you want stagnation perhaps chaos is what you should have sooner than later.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
77,106
34,011
136
Well we all remember the tremendous success Ted Cruz had when he tried this with the ACA so seems like a good idea.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
19,871
9,454
136
So .. Manchin is voting with his wallet right?
Why not bribe him? Give his company exclusive rights to coal mining in the US in exchange for, well, everything?
 

K1052

Lifer
Aug 21, 2003
41,228
21,550
136
Manchin is a huge pain in the ass and has bungled legislative negotiations to the degree that I somewhat doubt he could do a deal for a bucket of water if he was on fire. However Sinema's opposition to tax increases is the other half of this problem nobody is talking about. Manchin is the best D senator from WV that you'll ever get. Sinema is entirely replaceable.

Why not bribe him? Give his company exclusive rights to coal mining in the US in exchange for, well, everything?
Manchin is corrupt but that he has not availed himself of the massive opportunity for corruption in the reconciliation bill is just baffling.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
19,871
9,454
136
Manchin is a huge pain in the ass and has bungled legislative negotiations to the degree that I somewhat doubt he could do a deal for a bucket of water if he was on fire. However Sinema's opposition to tax increases is the other half of this problem nobody is talking about. Manchin is the best D senator from WV that you'll ever get. Sinema is entirely replaceable.



Manchin is corrupt but that he has not availed himself of the massive opportunity for corruption in the reconciliation bill is just baffling.
Because his lizard brain cant contemplate a better deal than the Kochs... I say make him one.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
69,506
5,065
126
Well we all remember the tremendous success Ted Cruz had when he tried this with the ACA so seems like a good idea.
Do you expect the Democrats on current course will gain in power in 2024, or will Republican gain seats?

I think a big problem in American politics is that the American people are sheltered by the fact that politicians on the left will not inform them directly of who is at cause for the frustration they are feeling. It is self inflicted.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
32,911
22,859
136
Do you expect the Democrats on current course will gain in power in 2024, or will Republican gain seats?

I think a big problem in American politics is that the American people are sheltered by the fact that politicians on the left will not inform them directly of who is at cause for the frustration they are feeling. It is self inflicted.
"Hey guys, Republicans are the reason most things suck."

"Fake news!"
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
77,106
34,011
136
Do you expect the Democrats on current course will gain in power in 2024, or will Republican gain seats?
No way to know - more than two years out is too far to predict.

I think the 'current course' is probably a lot less important than people think though as I think most elections turn on more macro level things. For example look at Bill Clinton in 1994 - he was considered left for dead. In 1996 he blew Bob Dole out so badly the Onion was making jokes about Dole asking for a recount before the election even happened. In 1991 GHWB appeared invincible and he would cruise to re-election and we all know how that went. You could argue Clinton's success was due to some sort of course correction but I don't think you could for GHWB - the economy just went south on him.

That's not to say something similar would happen here, it's just to show how much can change in two years or even less. Because of this I think politicians should focus less on trying to game what the electorate will like and focus on doing what they think is best. Sadly with Manchin and Sinema right now what Democrats can do is pretty limited.

I think a big problem in American politics is that the American people are sheltered by the fact that politicians on the left will not inform them directly of who is at cause for the frustration they are feeling. It is self inflicted.
I don't think people pay enough attention for this to be very effective. I think the Democrats' best bet is to moderate on cultural issues and double down on taxing the rich. Swing voters are wary of things like expanded trans rights but love taxing rich people. That's probably the best way to win them over.
 
Nov 29, 2006
15,205
3,323
136
Can the dems just kick Manchin and Sinema out of the party? What qualifies someone to be called a Dem or Repub? Can a republican just run as a democrat and lie about all his policy positions until he is elected?
 
Dec 10, 2005
22,021
4,130
126
Can the dems just kick Manchin and Sinema out of the party? What qualifies someone to be called a Dem or Repub? Can a republican just run as a democrat and lie about all his policy positions until he is elected?
What is gained by kicking those two out? Senate Dems only control the chamber because 2 independents caucus with them. Without the 50 (+ VP), Mitch McConnell would be majority leader, and republicans would once again completely control the Senate agenda.

The sad truth that the very online poo-poo is that people need to actually go out and vote in more democrats. A few more senators could neuter the Sinema/Manchin axis of obstruction.
 

Pens1566

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 2005
8,778
2,781
136
You take what you can get in small, easy to explain pieces. Not this "1000 things all in the same piece of legislation" shit. You make it very very very politically difficult for them to oppose those individual pieces.

Then, you marginalize the ever loving shit out of them in november by adding 2 more D seats. And watch as they become as insignificant as they really should be.
 
Dec 10, 2005
22,021
4,130
126
You take what you can get in small, easy to explain pieces. Not this "1000 things all in the same piece of legislation" shit. You make it very very very politically difficult for them to oppose those individual pieces.
Manchin doesn't care about politics. It's not like he's going to be voted out from the left.

Part of the reason to package multiple pieces together is it's just the legislative sausage making process: everyone gets a little bit of what they want and need. Not sure how showboating with the already slow to act senate schedule would help here.
 
Nov 29, 2006
15,205
3,323
136
What is gained by kicking those two out? Senate Dems only control the chamber because 2 independents caucus with them. Without the 50 (+ VP), Mitch McConnell would be majority leader, and republicans would once again completely control the Senate agenda.

The sad truth that the very online poo-poo is that people need to actually go out and vote in more democrats. A few more senators could neuter the Sinema/Manchin axis of obstruction.
My question was more about what qualifies them to be a Dem? They dont seem to have many affiliations to the party platform. Does the DNC get to decide who is a Dem, or does each person get to just say "hey im a Dem, vote for me" when in reality they dont have anything in common with the Dems on policy.

Has the DNC tried to primary him out with an actual Dem candidate?
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
32,911
22,859
136
My question was more about what qualifies them to be a Dem? They dont seem to have many affiliations to the party platform. Does the DNC get to decide who is a Dem, or does each person get to just say "hey im a Dem, vote for me" when in reality they dont have anything in common with the Dems on policy.

Has the DNC tried to primary him out with an actual Dem candidate?
WV is a +40 R state. The fact that a commie like Manchin was even elected there was a minor miracle.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
14,986
11,640
136
I don't think people pay enough attention for this to be very effective. I think the Democrats' best bet is to moderate on cultural issues and double down on taxing the rich. Swing voters are wary of things like expanded trans rights but love taxing rich people. That's probably the best way to win them over.
QFT on both, with emphasis added for the underlined.
 
Dec 10, 2005
22,021
4,130
126
My question was more about what qualifies them to be a Dem? They dont seem to have many affiliations to the party platform. Does the DNC get to decide who is a Dem, or does each person get to just say "hey im a Dem, vote for me" when in reality they dont have anything in common with the Dems on policy.

Has the DNC tried to primary him out with an actual Dem candidate?
Despite the ramblings of the online insane, the DNC and the Democratic party are not that powerful in their ability to control members. This isn't a parliamentary system where the party has a lot of power to decide who will fill their seats. Reforms with primaries largely ended that practice and left it pretty open.

And someone did try to primary Manchin from the left. They got absolutely crushed.
 
  • Like
Reactions: uclaLabrat

sportage

Lifer
Feb 1, 2008
10,771
2,541
136
The problem is that politicians like Munchkin, yes he's a Munchkin, and like Mitch McConnell have this way of suggesting to Americans that they just aren't worth it. Americans aren't worthy of Healthcare or childcare or a decent wage or breathable air. These asswipes refuse to spend money on stuff that benefits you, and it's fucking YOUR MONEY. No, they'd rather spend your money on the corporations and wealthy so the corporations and the wealthy can have that money to donate back to McConnell's and Munchkin's campaigns.
Just look at the masses of money involved in a simple campaign these days. Who is it enabling individuals and corporations to have all that money to donate? Munchkin and McConnell. Old Mitch McConnell is still bitching about giving the American people that $1200. McConnell does not believe you were worthy of that either. And again... that was YOUR MONEY.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dlerious

Pens1566

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 2005
8,778
2,781
136
Manchin doesn't care about politics. It's not like he's going to be voted out from the left.

Part of the reason to package multiple pieces together is it's just the legislative sausage making process: everyone gets a little bit of what they want and need. Not sure how showboating with the already slow to act senate schedule would help here.
No, he won't be voted out. But the grift gets a whole lot smaller when every major piece of legislation before the Senate doesn't need his vote anymore. He can go back to just being bought just/only by coal and pharma (by extension of his daughter).
 

NostaSeronx

Diamond Member
Sep 18, 2011
3,516
1,065
136
Non-conservative democrats should not vote with conservative democrats. It is just opening the door for conservative democrats to work with conservative republicans. Which is a gateway for a fully illuminated corporate takeover of U.S.A. of which Jan 6. was a test run.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
69,506
5,065
126
No way to know - more than two years out is too far to predict.

I think the 'current course' is probably a lot less important than people think though as I think most elections turn on more macro level things. For example look at Bill Clinton in 1994 - he was considered left for dead. In 1996 he blew Bob Dole out so badly the Onion was making jokes about Dole asking for a recount before the election even happened. In 1991 GHWB appeared invincible and he would cruise to re-election and we all know how that went. You could argue Clinton's success was due to some sort of course correction but I don't think you could for GHWB - the economy just went south on him.

That's not to say something similar would happen here, it's just to show how much can change in two years or even less. Because of this I think politicians should focus less on trying to game what the electorate will like and focus on doing what they think is best. Sadly with Manchin and Sinema right now what Democrats can do is pretty limited.


I don't think people pay enough attention for this to be very effective. I think the Democrats' best bet is to moderate on cultural issues and double down on taxing the rich. Swing voters are wary of things like expanded trans rights but love taxing rich people. That's probably the best way to win them over.
I thank you for presenting your opinion. I do agree it makes a lot of sense. The reason I ask is that in my opinion the frustration over inaction and with the Democrats in the presumptive majority, not much of significance is getting passed and that actually all of the political victories are going to conservatives via the Senate blocking anything useful and the Supreme court taking us back to the religious Dark Ages. And while it is two years from the election the frustration is real and here today. If that does not change I think that the feelings people are having today, their frustrations will only magnify and be expressed in two years just like they are being expressed today.

So what I am wondering is what will the election look like tomorrow if things stay the same. I believe that the American people are driven not by reason but by a sense of entitlement at a pretty much two year old level and that they will gladly cut their noses off to spite their faces. My personal belief is that this kind of behavior, almost impossible to deal with, certainly never will be without first being identified.

For me a political campaign in America today needs to exactly what we know scientifically about how to deal with denial.

Denial is all about being motivated not so see the true because of the unconscious implications truth has for ones sense of self worth. In shout, the assumption is that truth will tell us that we feel worthless and nothing positive can penetrate that so long as that process isn't understood psychologically and only then addressed as the lie it is.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY