Should Democrats take Manchin's small ball deal?

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Zor Prime

Senior member
Nov 7, 1999
631
259
136
Getting rid of Manchin puts an extra R in WV alongside Capito. Manchin is the only electable D in WV that I am aware of, and he's only there because he's part of the Good Old Boy network in WV. Much is the same way with Capito. You don't get to be a WV senator unless you were either the governor at some point or are the kid of one these days (Capito's dad is Arch Moore, 2-time governor of WV.)
 
  • Like
Reactions: hal2kilo

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
20,295
9,931
136
Give Manchin a trillion dollars or <shit or cant say on the internet>. Doesnt really matter. You need to show up to that gun fight with a gun.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
33,081
23,270
136
Give Manchin a trillion dollars or <shit or cant say on the internet>. Doesnt really matter. You need to show up to that gun fight with a gun.
Dems can't do that illegal bribe shit because their career will be over when they get caught. You know, like a normal functioning party.
 
  • Like
Reactions: hal2kilo

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
20,295
9,931
136
Dems can't do that illegal bribe shit because their career will be over when they get caught. You know, like a normal functioning party.
Yea. Knife. To a gunfight.
Oh man if I had that level of corruption here I’d personally do the surveillance and obtain the kompromat for free.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
69,641
5,134
126
Yea. Knife. To a gunfight.
Oh man if I had that level of corruption here I’d personally do the surveillance and obtain the kompromat for free.
Your life is made much easier by the fact that everybody you suspect of being corrupt equates to everybody that is corrupt, at least in your opinion, your opinion thus being rendered worthless. Unfortunately for many of us, our personal beliefs and what we can prove to be true don't always so neatly align and we have to wait for a real guilty verdict from an authorized court.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
20,295
9,931
136
Your life is made much easier by the fact that everybody you suspect of being corrupt equates to everybody that is corrupt, at least in your opinion, your opinion thus being rendered worthless. Unfortunately for many of us, our personal beliefs and what we can prove to be true don't always so neatly align and we have to wait for a real guilty verdict from an authorized court.
You still suck at that deduction shit old man. Dont you have a cross to be nailed to somewhere?
 

nickqt

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2015
7,328
7,058
136
Take what Manchin will give as it's better than the Republican alternative/nothing.

Then start pushing the narrative that if you still want a democratic form of government then you either vote in more Ds or hope that whatever fascist leadership emerges from the Republican Party doesn't decide that you're one of its enemies once they regain control of government.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
20,295
9,931
136
Take what Manchin will give as it's better than the Republican alternative/nothing.

Then start pushing the narrative that if you still want a democratic form of government then you either vote in more Ds or hope that whatever fascist leadership emerges from the Republican Party doesn't decide that you're one of its enemies once they regain control of government.
Stand down and stand by. Defenders of democracy prepare yourself for....
 
  • Like
Reactions: nickqt

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
69,641
5,134
126
Take what Manchin will give as it's better than the Republican alternative/nothing.

Then start pushing the narrative that if you still want a democratic form of government then you either vote in more Ds or hope that whatever fascist leadership emerges from the Republican Party doesn't decide that you're one of its enemies once they regain control of government.
And if the smallness of what is achieved means that next election we go back to the dark ages of conservative thinking, is it worth it in that case?

I don't know the answer, as that future has not yet arrived, the election is two years off, but, in my opinion, the perception of stagnation today and the rage it creates today, does that not forebode what will happen later? It seems to me that the public elects Democrats to make change and vote them out because the public perceives their needs haven't been met, thanks in no small part to Republican propaganda. I really think Democrats need to start pointing out to the public they are the ones who make change impossible because they don't see how they are being manipulated. We are a nation of chumps and we need to deal with it.

The first truth about chumps is that people are chumps because they want to be. You can't object to the way things are when you are the one who causes them to be that way and deny it. Nobody wants to feel any guilt for what is.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
33,081
23,270
136
And if the smallness of what is achieved means that next election we go back to the dark ages of conservative thinking, is it worth it in that case?

I don't know the answer, as that future has not yet arrived, the election is two years off, but, in my opinion, the perception of stagnation today and the rage it creates today, does that not forebode what will happen later? It seems to me that the public elects Democrats to make change and vote them out because the public perceives their needs haven't been met, thanks in no small part to Republican propaganda. I really think Democrats need to start pointing out to the public they are the ones who make change impossible because they don't see how they are being manipulated. We are a nation of chumps and we need to deal with it.

The first truth about chumps is that people are chumps because they want to be. You can't object to the way things are when you are the one who causes them to be that way and deny it. Nobody wants to feel any guilt for what is.
If smallness leads back to the dark ages then it follows that doing nothing will as well and likely even more so.
 
  • Like
Reactions: hal2kilo

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
69,641
5,134
126
If smallness leads back to the dark ages then it follows that doing nothing will as well and likely even more so.
Not suggesting doing nothing, suggest telling the American public we are doing nothing because it is what you want us to do but won't admit to so here it is. If you ever decide you really do want something done vote out enough Republicans to give us 60 votes in the Senate and then you will see some real change for the better. The point is that if the dark ages are coming you really don't need to worry about worse.
 

nickqt

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2015
7,328
7,058
136
And if the smallness of what is achieved means that next election we go back to the dark ages of conservative thinking, is it worth it in that case?

I don't know the answer, as that future has not yet arrived, the election is two years off, but, in my opinion, the perception of stagnation today and the rage it creates today, does that not forebode what will happen later? It seems to me that the public elects Democrats to make change and vote them out because the public perceives their needs haven't been met, thanks in no small part to Republican propaganda. I really think Democrats need to start pointing out to the public they are the ones who make change impossible because they don't see how they are being manipulated. We are a nation of chumps and we need to deal with it.

The first truth about chumps is that people are chumps because they want to be. You can't object to the way things are when you are the one who causes them to be that way and deny it. Nobody wants to feel any guilt for what is.
I think that you make things as good as you can with what you have, explain the exact reason why you couldn't make it better, and then demand that voters give you the power to make things better.

If voters decide they want to punish the political party that tried but couldn't fully implement something by voting for the party that opposed it, then I guess that's what they're going to do regardless of whether anything got done at all...so might as well do what you can.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dank69

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
69,641
5,134
126
I think that you make things as good as you can with what you have, explain the exact reason why you couldn't make it better, and then demand that voters give you the power to make things better.

If voters decide they want to punish the political party that tried but couldn't fully implement something by voting for the party that opposed it, then I guess that's what they're going to do regardless of whether anything got done at all...so might as well do what you can.
Some might look at that as enabling addiction. How many times have we seen this act repeated by Democrats. The problem with America is that it is a right wing nation and the American people in their utter brainwashed ignorance won't let the left fix it.

Democrats should be talking about little else than that in my opinion. If they pass crumbs they should announce them as that, not as political compromise victories.
 

nickqt

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2015
7,328
7,058
136
Some might look at that as enabling addiction. How many times have we seen this act repeated by Democrats. The problem with America is that it is a right wing nation and the American people in their utter brainwashed ignorance won't let the left fix it.

Democrats should be talking about little else than that in my opinion. If they pass crumbs they should announce them as that, not as political compromise victories.
You take what you can get when you can get it. It isn't enabling anyone, if the voters of this country are too stupid to understand what is happening, then this country is fucked regardless of whether you get what you can when you can, or you do absolutely nothing.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
69,641
5,134
126
You take what you can get when you can get it. It isn't enabling anyone, if the voters of this country are too stupid to understand what is happening, then this country is fucked regardless of whether you get what you can when you can, or you do absolutely nothing.
If a group of people with good intentions is constantly frustrated by another group who uses that frustration to maintain the ability to frustrate them over and over again by allowing just enough to happen to keep the game going how is it not enabling to keep playing that game. Isn't it time to stop playing and force a rule change. You talk as if the IF you proposed wasn't a reality. People are too stupid, actually too conditioned to understand what is happening and I think it's time to openly and constantly mention that fact to ourselves.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
33,081
23,270
136
If a group of people with good intentions is constantly frustrated by another group who uses that frustration to maintain the ability to frustrate them over and over again by allowing just enough to happen to keep the game going how is it not enabling to keep playing that game. Isn't it time to stop playing and force a rule change. You talk as if the IF you proposed wasn't a reality. People are too stupid, actually too conditioned to understand what is happening and I think it's time to openly and constantly mention that fact to ourselves.
You can do both, and calling it "enabling" is just as dumb as voting for Republicans because "Democrats aren't doing enough."
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
69,641
5,134
126
You can do both, and calling it "enabling" is just as dumb as voting for Republicans because "Democrats aren't doing enough."
Isn't that the point? That is exactly what happens when Democrats achieve small gains. Or is it going to be different next time?
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
31,698
5,686
126
The ACA and backlash against it seems to be relevant to this discussion.
I agree with @Moonbeam insofar as how stupid people are. How susceptible to propaganda we all are.
But whether you make small gains or not. The propaganda campaign against you will remain.

The failure isn't to make small gains.
The failure is to parade them around and hang them over your neck like a noose. To take ownership of and to pretend a good job was done. To dance of victory amidst the horror of meek accomplishment. Don't tell the American people you've won... after you've compromised into a loss. The ACA had some benefit, it also wasn't nearly enough. Unfunded liabilities lead to continued pain, but after that the Democrats "owned" our pain. Owned both the good and bad. And the remaining bad outweighed the good. It hurt at the voting booth due to that. But it wasn't the ACA that hurt. It was the messaging around it.

As if Republicans had not cornered and forced you into taking up their bill. It was a brilliant piece of political maneuvering. And it belonged to the enemy.

Now... one might posit that, in an ideal world the small gains would be seized and Democrats can and should at least get what they can. However, I can also see the pessimism where the narrative was stolen / failed us before. It would happen again. After all, why wouldn't Biden / company crow over whatever breadcrumbs Mitch Ccconnell throws at them? Well, let us hope someone in Washington DC remembers the ACA and acts accordingly. Which is to say... I hope no one claims the job is done after taking some steps in a marathon.

Ours needs be a campaign towards the finish line. And we cannot let the voters forget that. Why so much little is done. How we may eek out a small change today, but a greater need remains. One that we must remain focused on. One that we must vote on. We must take what we can, and immediately push for more. We cannot rest or yield the initiative to an unrelenting foe.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dlerious and dank69

Pens1566

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 2005
9,139
3,487
136
i'll believe manchin's promise to vote for it when it's recorded in the annals of the senate.
Yep. We've had his verbal before and he backed out.

If it's true, I'm wondering if Joe is reading tea leaves here.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY