Serious question about mormons

[MechJinx]

Originally posted by: rahvin

Originally posted by: MechJinx
As for the reasons the press was destroyed, it was NOT destroyed for printing an article about his secret sexual liasons. That is blatantly false, read accurate information next time.

He did have a desire to run for President, which I imagine he would have lost big time if he had a chance to run before being killed. He did not set up a secret government or have himself crowned King of the Kingdom of God. False info again. He was the Prophet (President) of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Much like the Pope is the leader of the Catholic church

Mormon writers often refer to the Nauvoo Expositor as a scandalous and vile publication, but in reality it advocated high morals and obedience to the law. This newspaper was strongly opposed to Joseph Smith's "political schemes." The thing that really disturbed the Mormon leaders, however, was that the Nauvoo Expositor exposed Joseph Smith's secret teaching on polygamy. In an affidavit published in the Nauvoo Expositor, June 7, 1844, Austin Cowles charged:

In the latter part of the summer, 1843, the Patriarch, Hyrum Smith, did in the High Council, of which I was a member, introduce what he said was a revelation given through the Prophet;... according to his reading there was contained the following doctrines; 1st, the sealing up of persons to eternal life, against all sins, save that of shedding innocent blood or of consenting thereto; 2nd, the doctrine of a plurality of wives, or marrying virgins; that "David and Solomon had many wives, yet in this they sinned not save in the matter of Uriah."

The Mormon leaders claimed that Austin Cowles had lied, but eight years after Joseph Smith's death they published the revelation on polygamy. This revelation proves beyond all doubt that the statements in the Expositor were true. Thus it is clear that the Expositor was condemned on the basis of false testimony given by Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum.

In a synopsis of the proceedings of the Nauvoo City Council we find the following:

Mayor [Joseph Smith] said, if he had a City Council who felt as he did, the establishment (referring to the Nauvoo Expositor) would be declared a nuisance before night....

Councilor Stiles said ... he would go in for suppressing all further publications of the kind.

Councilor Hyrum Smith believed the best way was to smash the press and pi the type (History of the Church, vol. 6, pp.441,445).

The Nauvoo City Council ordered the press to be destroyed. The following is recorded in Joseph Smith's history under the date of June 10, 1844: "The Council passed an ordinance declaring the Nauvoo Expositor a nuisance, and also issued an order to me to abate the said nuisance. I immediately ordered the Marshal to destroy it without delay.... About 8 p.m., the Marshal returned and reported that he had removed the press,type, printed paper, and fixtures into the street, and destroyed them" (History of the Church, vol. 6, p.432).

Mormon historian B. H. Roberts concedes concerning the destruction of the Expositor that, "the legality of the action of the Mayor and City Council was, of course, questionable, though some sought to defend it on legal grounds; but it must be conceded that neither proof nor argument for legality are convincing. On the grounds of expediency or necessity the action is more defensible" (History of the Church, vol. 6, p.xxxviii).

History disagrees with you.

Well, I learned something new, thank you. If what I read here is true, then the expositor was discussing Polygamy which was practiced by members of the church, even in hiding after the US passed a law against until revelation was received by the president of the church at the time to stop practicing it. Sorry that I had the wrong information in my post. Like I said, members are not perfect, please study authorized literature and pray for your own answers.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Electric Amish

Poor use of the word "coerce". And I don't require miracles to believe, I'm already a believer of Jesus and his word and will.
The problem I have is believing that JS Jr. was a prophet. And I probably never will since I only need Jesus, the bible, and live my life faithfully and according to God's will. Who is this JS Jr. to proclaim prophecy? The Lord's will and word has already been handed down to us centuries ago.

Sorry, but there are different versions/translations of the bible, but they were all based on Bible v1.0 and still retain the title "BIBLE".

So, weren't Moses and some of those other people in the "BIBLE" proclaimed as prophets?

Moses was a "law giver". He is claimed to have written the torah, which is completely false. Moses may have created certain laws which were passed on generation to generation but the book of Deuteronomy wasn't put together until about 722 B.C., well after Moses was dead.

 

[MechJinx]

Originally posted by: Atomicus

Originally posted by: stephenw22

Originally posted by: Atomicus

Originally posted by: stephenw22

Originally posted by: Atomicus

So... I guess accounts of seeing Jesus' death shaking the earth and then later on his ascension makes him a nut. The day I see miracles performed by the grace of God through faith by Joseph Smith is the day I become a Mormon. Non-believers of Jesus back in the day referred to him as a magician, physician, and a heretic. What other way to prove that he is the way, the truth, and the life by which eternal salvation can be achieved? MIRACLES. He may have used scripture and Judaic law to disprove false beliefs, but he performed miracles as living testiments for the people to see.

...

And they still crucified Jesus. Miracles don't convince non-believers, they only strengthen those who already believe.

There are plenty of stories of miracles performed by Mormons. You just don't want to find them.

Yup, those Utah Salt Lake City newspapers sure are great documentation of them miracles.
:roll:

I've never read a Salt Lake City newspaper, so I have NO idea what you are talking about. Miracles really mean nothing, though. Tons of people claim to do miracles, in every religion, Christian or not.

Make sure to KIT with me when his second coming is upon us, we'll see if Joseph Smith Jr. is waiting at the gates to the kingdom of heaven.

I'll see you there

 

[MechJinx]

Originally posted by: Atomicus

Originally posted by: MechJinx

Originally posted by: Papagayo
Ask them about their special underwear..

Mormons have sacred underware of sort that they don't like to talk about..

Because it is sacred. If I asked you to spout off about something you think is sacred and I deal with it in a flippant matter, of course you would be upset.

Yes, we wear undergarments as symbol of covenants that we have made with God. Please give it the respect that we place upon it as you would ask me to place on something that you held in very high regard. Thank you.

Was it not Jesus who said that the covenant with him was to take his body and his blood?

Yup, which is why we partake of the sacrament every Sunday

 

[MechJinx]

Originally posted by: Hammer

Originally posted by: MechJinx

Originally posted by: Hammer

Originally posted by: Hammer
mechjinx:

please post your beliefs on the life of smith and also on the people in the pre-columbian americas.

avoiding the question then?

Geez, can't a guy do some work? Work came up, and I kind of want to keep my job. hehe

What would you like to know about Joseph and the pre-columbian Americas. My beliefs about them would take A LOT of time to expound on. My beliefs coincide with the Book of Mormon and what is written in the authorized publication of the Church History. I would be glad to expound on specifics, not generals for the sake of time. Sorry.

Short set of beliefs about Joseph Smith and pre-columbian Americas.

I belive that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, that he did have a vision in which he saw our Heavenly Father(God) and Jesus Christ, His son. I believe that he organized The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints under the direction of Jesus Christ. I believe that he translated the Book of Mormon from the original gold plates through divine help.

I believe that the cultures described in the Book of Mormon did exist on the Americas and that the Book of Mormon is a record of those people, that descibes both temporal and spiritual events that took place in their culture.

Anything futher, please be more specific so I can answer the question in a paragraph or two, please. I do have work that needs to be done so I don't lose my job But, I will be happy to answer any questions about my beliefs or answer questions about my religion to the best of my ability or refer you to sources that will have accurate information.

Thank you to those who understand why I said you should talk to members or read authorized literature instead of bashing me for saying so.

And, to those that believe I'm insane and believe in a cult. You are very much entitled to your beliefs and I respect that and will not try to dissuade you from that. But, if you are going to print what I KNOW to be innaccuracies about something I believe strongly in, I hope that you can understadn why I respond with what I understand to be the truth as a member of that religion. I am not doing it to put you down. This thread was started by someone who had real questions about the LDS church and it wasn't until I was challenged to put my money where my mouth is that I even tried to start defending my religion because I know the vehemence that a small percentage of people greet anything dealing with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints or religion in general.

thanks for your reply. to be more specific, do you believe the people a semetic people lived in pre-colombian america, and that they possessed technology on par with the western world?

Yes, I believed they existed but no I do not believe they had technology on par with the western world. What kind of technology are you referring to?

 

[Atomicus]

Originally posted by: MechJinx

Originally posted by: Atomicus

Originally posted by: MechJinx

Originally posted by: Papagayo
Ask them about their special underwear..

Mormons have sacred underware of sort that they don't like to talk about..

Because it is sacred. If I asked you to spout off about something you think is sacred and I deal with it in a flippant matter, of course you would be upset.

Yes, we wear undergarments as symbol of covenants that we have made with God. Please give it the respect that we place upon it as you would ask me to place on something that you held in very high regard. Thank you.

Was it not Jesus who said that the covenant with him was to take his body and his blood?

Yup, which is why we partake of the sacrament every Sunday

but then why the sacred undergarment? Jesus, perfection in the flesh, did not wear one nor speak of wearing one. Maybe its time for me to calm down as my work-day draws to a conclusion and ask some questions

 

[DrPizza]

I'm not going to read through the entire thread... some people already mentioned the Southpark episode...

Do this: Watch the southpark episode. Do a little research to discover that Southpark actually presented the facts fairly accurately (I was surprised)

Then, decide if what the little mormon kid said was right (and would apply to you)... It's all about how you live your life, respect others and your family, not about where the religion came from. It's more about the moral values. I thought his comment balanced the whole show..

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Atomicus

Originally posted by: MechJinx

Originally posted by: Papagayo
Ask them about their special underwear..

Mormons have sacred underware of sort that they don't like to talk about..

Because it is sacred. If I asked you to spout off about something you think is sacred and I deal with it in a flippant matter, of course you would be upset.

Yes, we wear undergarments as symbol of covenants that we have made with God. Please give it the respect that we place upon it as you would ask me to place on something that you held in very high regard. Thank you.

Was it not Jesus who said that the covenant with him was to take his body and his blood?

That's just a misinterpretation of the symbolism.

 

[MechJinx]

Originally posted by: Atomicus

Originally posted by: MechJinx

Originally posted by: Atomicus

Originally posted by: MechJinx

Originally posted by: Papagayo
Ask them about their special underwear..

Mormons have sacred underware of sort that they don't like to talk about..

Because it is sacred. If I asked you to spout off about something you think is sacred and I deal with it in a flippant matter, of course you would be upset.

Yes, we wear undergarments as symbol of covenants that we have made with God. Please give it the respect that we place upon it as you would ask me to place on something that you held in very high regard. Thank you.

Was it not Jesus who said that the covenant with him was to take his body and his blood?

Yup, which is why we partake of the sacrament every Sunday

but then why the sacred undergarment? Jesus, perfection in the flesh, did not wear one nor speak of wearing one. Maybe its time for me to calm down as my work-day draws to a conclusion and ask some questions

Now, you are getting to the part that I should not talk about in public as it is considered sacred to me and members of the church and quite honestly, a public forum is definitely not a proper place to discuss things that we consider sacred (I hope you would conceed this to me). So, the best answer that I can give in this setting is that they are symbolic of covenants that I have made with God. I apologize if that does not satisfy your curiosity about them.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Atomicus
but then why the sacred undergarment? Jesus, perfection in the flesh, did not wear one nor speak of wearing one. Maybe its time for me to calm down as my work-day draws to a conclusion and ask some questions

Huh? It is quite probable that He did wear a similar type of garment. And it wouldn't have been spoken of because it was Jewish law to wear one. Have you never seen a modern Hasidic Jew?

Numbers 15:37-40
37 The LORD said to Moses,
38 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'Throughout the generations to come you are to make tassels on the corners of your garments, with a blue cord on each tassel.
39 You will have these tassels to look at and so you will remember all the commands of the LORD , that you may obey them and not prostitute yourselves by going after the lusts of your own hearts and eyes.
40 Then you will remember to obey all my commands and will be consecrated to your God.

This evolved into a custom (certainly practiced in Jesus' time and still practiced today by certain Jewish sects, including the Hasidics) of always wearing a small undergarment, usually an apron or "prayer shawl", which had those tassels (called "tzitzis"). Being a Jew, Jesus almost certainly wore one, and the Mormon undergarment serves a similar purpose, of reminding the follower of their convenant with God.

 

[rhino56]

mormons are some messed up people, but as twisted as they are, they are also a very pure people. thats what i like about them, they can take the truth so much better then most sinners. they are pretty humble also. but they still fall short way short, and hey mormon guy, if your in the truth then the next time you eat chicken remember your eating a dead bird, they arent called foul for no reason. mmmm good.

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: midwestfisherman
I left the Mormon church to go into a christian church (bible believing that is), and as soon as I left and they heard I was in a different church, all of my "friends" from the Mormon church quit speaking to me and I was ex-communicated from the Mormon church. I even got a letter from the Salt Lake City headquarters....

Well, at least they sent you an official document, just to confirm everything... lol.

 

[Electric Amish]

Originally posted by: rhino56
mormons are some messed up people, but as twisted as they are, they are also a very pure people. thats what i like about them, they can take the truth so much better then most sinners. they are pretty humble also. but they still fall short way short, and hey mormon guy, if your in the truth then the next time you eat chicken remember your eating a dead bird, they arent called foul for no reason. mmmm good.

I have no idea what you are blathering on about...

 

[Atomicus]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Atomicus
but then why the sacred undergarment? Jesus, perfection in the flesh, did not wear one nor speak of wearing one. Maybe its time for me to calm down as my work-day draws to a conclusion and ask some questions

Huh? It is quite probable that He did wear a similar type of garment. And it wouldn't have been spoken of because it was Jewish law to wear one. Have you never seen a modern Hasidic Jew?

Numbers 15:37-40
37 The LORD said to Moses,
38 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'Throughout the generations to come you are to make tassels on the corners of your garments, with a blue cord on each tassel.
39 You will have these tassels to look at and so you will remember all the commands of the LORD , that you may obey them and not prostitute yourselves by going after the lusts of your own hearts and eyes.
40 Then you will remember to obey all my commands and will be consecrated to your God.

This evolved into a custom (certainly practiced in Jesus' time and still practiced today by certain Jewish sects, including the Hasidics) of always wearing a small undergarment, usually an apron or "prayer shawl", which had those tassels (called "tzitzis"). Being a Jew, Jesus almost certainly wore one, and the Mormon undergarment serves a similar purpose, of reminding the follower of their convenant with God.

When Jesus washes his disciple's feet in John 13:1-17, he takes off his clothing, and puts on a towel around his waist. Any takes?

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Atomicus
When Jesus washes his disciple's feet in John 13:1-17, he takes off his clothing, and puts on a towel around his waist. Any takes?

If you check the various translations, you will see that that passage is a bit disputed. Some translations say He took off His garments, some say His robe, others say His coat, the NIV says His "outer garments", etc. Some say He dried the apostles feet with a towel, others an apron, etc.

I'm not sure what you're trying to imply by bringing up that passage in context with my earlier post, but I don't believe that Jesus stripped naked and then washed his disciples' feet with only a towel wrapped around his waist, if that is what you are trying to say.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Atomicus
When Jesus washes his disciple's feet in John 13:1-17, he takes off his clothing, and puts on a towel around his waist. Any takes?

If you check the various translations, you will see that that passage is a bit disputed. Some translations say He took off His garments, some say His robe, others say His coat, the NIV says His "outer garments", etc. Some say He dried the apostles feet with a towel, others an apron, etc.

I'm not sure what you're trying to imply by bringing up that passage in context with my earlier post, but I don't believe that Jesus stripped naked and then washed his disciples' feet with only a towel wrapped around his waist, if that is what you are trying to say.

NIV? What does the NRSV say?

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: conjur
NIV? What does the NRSV say?

"outer robe"

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: conjur
NIV? What does the NRSV say?

"outer robe"

Makes more sense. Thanks.

 

[psiu]

Originally posted by: buck

Originally posted by: Mwilding
Pick a church based on its beliefs and teachings, not the personality of its congregation...

I'd suggest you learn how to spell it before you think about becoming one.

What they ^ said...

 

[otispunkmeyer]

physics is my religion

 

[SaltBoy]

Those stupid Mormons, telling me that I can't have sex with anybody except for my hot wife... GOSH!!

 

[Childs]

Well, if you like white girls then being a mormon isn't a bad way to go. I flew into Salt Lake to do a job and I must say they probably had the best looking collection of white girls I have seen in one place. I knew some mormons in Sacramento too, and their wives were all really pretty. Apparently, once you come back from your mission you have the first pick of all mormon girls.

 

[xSauronx]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Electric Amish

Poor use of the word "coerce". And I don't require miracles to believe, I'm already a believer of Jesus and his word and will.
The problem I have is believing that JS Jr. was a prophet. And I probably never will since I only need Jesus, the bible, and live my life faithfully and according to God's will. Who is this JS Jr. to proclaim prophecy? The Lord's will and word has already been handed down to us centuries ago.

Sorry, but there are different versions/translations of the bible, but they were all based on Bible v1.0 and still retain the title "BIBLE".

So, weren't Moses and some of those other people in the "BIBLE" proclaimed as prophets?

Moses was a "law giver". He is claimed to have written the torah, which is completely false. Moses may have created certain laws which were passed on generation to generation but the book of Deuteronomy wasn't put together until about 722 B.C., well after Moses was dead.

Source? I was raised christian(but am not anymore); so actual history of the composition of the bible(at least from a "secular" viewpoint) is something i was never taught; though I am interested in it. All I ever was told was "moses wrote this, so and so wrote that" without, of course, any evidence or proof outside of whatever the company who printed that particular bible wrote in it.

Originally posted by: Electric Amish
Yeah, because burning bushes that speak and people magically parting seas and people saving 2 of every animal to repopulate the earth after a devastating flood are so much more sane beliefs... :roll:

I wish I knew more about Islam, and the asian religions because I'm sure they would contain similar "far out" or "crazy" beliefs.

Skeptics Annotated Quran

I've read that a direct and proper translation from the native arabic to english would leave something to be desired....but that's probably true of translating the old testament bible from hebrew...so at least you get a read at it.

Some of the observations are more interesting than others; but that place is what got me to continue reading the bible....after i started to read it myself and found it nowhere near as wholesome as I had thought it was.

 

[Evdawg]

Originally posted by: Mwilding
Pick a church based on its befielfs and teachings, not the personality of its congregation...

 

[Ryan]

Originally posted by: MechJinx

Originally posted by: Atomicus

Originally posted by: MechJinx

Originally posted by: Atomicus

Originally posted by: MechJinx

Originally posted by: Papagayo
Ask them about their special underwear..

Mormons have sacred underware of sort that they don't like to talk about..

Because it is sacred. If I asked you to spout off about something you think is sacred and I deal with it in a flippant matter, of course you would be upset.

Yes, we wear undergarments as symbol of covenants that we have made with God. Please give it the respect that we place upon it as you would ask me to place on something that you held in very high regard. Thank you.

Was it not Jesus who said that the covenant with him was to take his body and his blood?

Yup, which is why we partake of the sacrament every Sunday

but then why the sacred undergarment? Jesus, perfection in the flesh, did not wear one nor speak of wearing one. Maybe its time for me to calm down as my work-day draws to a conclusion and ask some questions

Now, you are getting to the part that I should not talk about in public as it is considered sacred to me and members of the church and quite honestly, a public forum is definitely not a proper place to discuss things that we consider sacred (I hope you would conceed this to me). So, the best answer that I can give in this setting is that they are symbolic of covenants that I have made with God. I apologize if that does not satisfy your curiosity about them.

Example #2!