Serious question about mormons

[Hammer]

Originally posted by: Hammer
mechjinx:

please post your beliefs on the life of smith and also on the people in the pre-columbian americas.

avoiding the question then?

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Electric Amish
Yeah, because burning bushes that speak and people magically parting seas and people saving 2 of every animal to repopulate the earth after a devastating flood are so much more sane beliefs... :roll:

I wish I knew more about Islam, and the asian religions because I'm sure they would contain similar "far out" or "crazy" beliefs.

That's just it. None of those things happened. NONE of them. If people would just read the books from the scholars who've uncovered the J, E, P, D, and R versions of the Hebrew Bible and how they were edited and put together, it would knock a bunch of the BS spread by the zealots.

 

[Atomicus]

Originally posted by: Electric Amish

Originally posted by: spiderrasmon
just ask yourself this one question about a religion...

are there any black/asian/[insert ethnic,racial group here] folk in it?

if not, likely it's a sign that it's not the real deal.

There are. It's just a fact that there is a very small ethnic minority in Utah where most LDS stereotypes are conjured up.

They are not precluded in anyway from joining.

Given their small reach, does that mean that Mormonism was started much later than other religions (i.e. Christianity, Islam, etc) ?

Also, would their small numbers also correlate to the fact that there is substantial religious text from its predecessors (Judaism & Christianity) which Mormonism deviates radically from? And in most cases goes off in such incredible tangents that it actually repels and repulses people from Mormonism?

When there is truth behind a message, people go for it. And from what I hear, Mormonism is ummm... *cough*

 

[Papagayo]

Ask them about their special underwear..

Mormons have sacred underware of sort that they don't like to talk about..

 

[MechJinx]

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: Nitemare
Not to mention that each Mormom is required to make a 2 year pilgrimage out in the world where all they do is try and convert others...

One of my best friends is currently in the second year of his mission. I'll tell you what, though... as a whole, Mormons are by far the nicest group of people I know. Although I do question the basis of his religion, especially when he claims to be a Christian, I have never (and will never) question his faith.

Similar to Catholisism, Mormonism has many rules that must be strictly followed. If you don't, you will never be inducted into the temple (or you will eventually be ex-communicated). Some were mentioned above, such as not being allowed to consume caffeine (even though that is impossible to do by definition), etc.

Of course, I am by no means an expert in Mormonism. I have read the Book of Mormon (naturally, my friend was required to send me a copy) and have had many discussions with him about it, but that is the extent of my knowledge.

However, whatever you do, don't call the Mormon church unless you are really serious about joining. The moment they receive the call, you will have two members at your doorstep wanting to convert you (well, once they get off of their bicycles, that is ).

It is true that you have to live by strict rules if you want to enter a Temple. Maybe not as strict as you might think (I have a current Temple Recommend, meaning that I have had an interview with a Bishop and Stake President and have attested that I am living worthily to enter the temple, since it is considered a very holy place)

Your friend was not REQUIRED to send you a copy. I have a friends who are not members of the church and I have no intention of giving them copies of the Book of Mormon because they have made it clear to me that they are not interested. The church has a very strong proselyting effort, that much is true. Many people interpret that as being a requirement of being a member. Not true

The bottom statement is true because of the strong proselyting effort. I can guaranteee that if you contact the Church office for information, you will be asked as some point if you would like a visit from missionaries. If you have member friends, it will most likely be brought up at some point. But, any non-fanatical member will abide by your decision to not learn any more about the church.

 

[Vic]

Carazariah, good post. I didn't click your links but your argument was well-stated.

IMO, Eph: 2:8-10 is the most misunderstood passage in the Bible. Christ Himself (in Matthew 7, a part of which I posted above) said that no one can be saved solely by faith, neither can anyone be saved solely by works. James said that both faith and works are required for salvation -- that if you have faith, then you have works, and if you have works, then you have faith. The 2 are complementary, not opposed, as many Protestant sects seem to believe, and the crutch of Eph: 2:8-10 that they seem to rely on to justify their sinful lives, or lack of necessary faith to actual attempt to live a righteous life.

In Matthew 22, Christ gave His great commandments, in which He said that loving God with all your heart, mind, and soul, and to love your neighbor as yourself, was the most important commandments and that "All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments". Loving God is faith, but is not loving your neighbor "works"?
Regardless, James 2:18 says it best IMO - "Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do."
If you have faith, then you will have good deeds (works). If you do not have works, then it is because you lack faith.

Hope this helps. I know this is controversial, but the Bible and the Teachings and Life of Jesus are clear on the subject. All Ephesians 2:8-10 is telling us is that salvation is a gift from God. Nothing more. Of course it is. If the entire purpose of your faith is simply to selfishly acheive salvation for your own glory, then (pardon me here) you need to re-examine your faith. Faith is not the selfish quest for salvation, it is the belief that God's plan for the world is the right one, and to attempt to walk in His footsteps.

Despite all their convoluted beliefs, it is the Mormon's steadfast honesty on this issue that I admire most about them. They try to do more than talk the talk...

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: Electric Amish
I wish I knew more about Islam, and the asian religions because I'm sure they would contain similar "far out" or "crazy" beliefs.

I took a class that taught a little about a few religions. Islmam was the main one. We had a guy come from the local Masqu and talk with us every day for 3 weeks. IT was a eye openeing time.

After the 3 weeks i walked away with a deep respect for the religion. What you see in the news is just a small percantage of how most who fallow it are.

I just wish i could remember it all. we went over a LOT of information (even watched a movie on it!) in the time. But it is something to study if you are interested.

I have always been intrigued by diffrent religions. I have tried to to talk with someone (priest/father.rabbie etc) from each one. I still have yet to talk to a Jewish leader. Not many of them in the farming area i live heh.

anway as i said the Islamic religion is actually pretty good. worht the time to read the Quran (yeah mispelled it i think) and try to understand the teaching and history. its pretty amazing.

 

[Electric Amish]

Originally posted by: Atomicus

Originally posted by: Electric Amish

Originally posted by: spiderrasmon
just ask yourself this one question about a religion...

are there any black/asian/[insert ethnic,racial group here] folk in it?

if not, likely it's a sign that it's not the real deal.

There are. It's just a fact that there is a very small ethnic minority in Utah where most LDS stereotypes are conjured up.

They are not precluded in anyway from joining.

Given their small reach, does that mean that Mormonism was started much later than other religions (i.e. Christianity, Islam, etc) ?

Also, would their small numbers also correlate to the fact that there is substantial religious text from its predecessors (Judaism & Christianity) which Mormonism deviates radically from? And in most cases goes off in such incredible tangents that it actually repels and repulses people from Mormonism?

When there is truth behind a message, people go for it. And from what I hear, Mormonism is ummm... *cough*

The LDS church is not *that* small. It did start late (1800's I believe). They are world-wide. I think the rumors and stereotypes purported and spread by hearsay and some other religions is what "repels" people from joining. Look at the example here in this forum. Lots of hate, yet little knowledge. Much is based on hearsay. There are people in the world today that actually think that "Mormons" have horns because it was rumored to be so.

 

[DougK62]

Originally posted by: MechJinx

Originally posted by: whattaguy
Mormonism - based on what man needs to do; legalism
Christianity - based on what God has already completed through Jesus; grace

The name of the church is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. We believe that the only way back to God is through what Jesus has already accomplished; grace

You're wasting your time. It's plain as day that Mormons are Christians, but the fundie arseholes will still deny it and just make up some weird semantic nonsense like whattaguy did to try to justify it.

 

[Homerboy]

Im not bothering to read this entire thread, but I will chim in nonetheless.

I have MANY MANY friends that are Latter Day Saints (please note they are LDSes not "Mormons")
Anyways, yes. They are the one of the nicest group of people and have some of the best morals and family values etc I have ever seen and am in MANY cases very jealous of it. I can not say enough good things about them on this. But as somebody else said, early on in this thread, pick you religion on your beliefs not on the personality of the congration. I play basketball with Mormons weekly. Eat dinner with them weekly, go to their church gatherings (talent shows, craft fairs etc etc). My wife goes to some of their "womans club" type meetings etc etc etc.... they never have tried to convert us. In fact its a running joke that we are going to convert their asses (to Catholicism). If I beleived what they beleive (Jon Smith, golden plates, yadda yadda). I would jump ship in a minute. But I beleive in what I believe (yeah I agree in what I was brainwashed into as a child) and Im staying where my faith is, not where my personality wishes it was....

All the power to you in whatever you believe, but make you choice based on your faith.

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: asm0deus
sitting through church WILL be boring if you have ADD (most of you do btw)

Uh... and what qualifications do you have to diagnose "most" of us with ADD, based solely on interactions through an online forum?

 

[MechJinx]

Originally posted by: silverpig

Originally posted by: rahvin

Originally posted by: Yax
So being a not so devoted christian, I haven't been going to church, but lately, I've been thinking about which church would be good and of all the church goers that I've met, I think the mormans have some of the nicest people. I'm thinking about giving that church a try.

I do have one question. Some people don't like mormans. I'm curious as to your reasons. Oh, please don't flame. If you're an athiest, then I already know your reason so you don't need to lecture me about how they're trying to push their beliefs onto you. I'm just interested in people who do go to church. What are some of the goods and bads?

I'd suggest you read the following information:

http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm

ROFL

Joseph Smith died not as a martyr, but in a gun battle in which he fired a number of shots. He was in jail at the time, under arrest for having ordered the destruction of a Nauvoo newspaper which dared to print an exposure (which was true) of his secret sexual liaisons. At that time he had announced his candidacy for the presidency of the United States, set up a secret government, and secretly had himself crowned "King of the Kingdom of God."

Joseph Smith did attempt to defend himself from the mob that intended to kill him while he was incarcerated for destroying the press in Nauvoo. Would anyone do differently if presented with the same situation?

As for the reasons the press was destroyed, it was NOT destroyed for printing an article about his secret sexual liasons. That is blatantly false, read accurate information next time.

He did have a desire to run for President, which I imagine he would have lost big time if he had a chance to run before being killed. He did not set up a secret government or have himself crowned King of the Kingdom of God. False info again. He was the Prophet (President) of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Much like the Pope is the leader of the Catholic church

 

[MechJinx]

Originally posted by: aircooled
Do you know how uncomfortable it is to ride a bike in black slacks, white dress shirt while wearing a skinny tie?

hehe, Yup, very uncomfortable. I did it for 2 years. DOH!!!!

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: rahvin
Also 100% meeting expectations. For someone that claims to not be a member you have been an adamant defender of the faith in every thread posted. Although I didn't expect you to call historical fact "lies and ignorance" as you usually just ignore my links completely.

I have made no secret of the fact that I grew up in the Mormon church, but left it when I was 16 for personal reasons.
Your links (as always) are full of the lies from ex-communicated members. The "historical fact", as you call it, is seriously lacking.

Why do I defend the Mormon faith? One reason is in my previous post. The second reason is that we have the freedom of religious practice and expression in this country, and that I will defend anyone's religious beliefs so long as those beliefs harm no one else. Even if I don't believe the same as that person at all, I will defend their beliefs.

Originally posted by: DougK62
I can't believe so many of you "Christians" in here ragging on the Mormons. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

OBVIOUSLY you don't agree with what they teach - if you did you'd be a Mormon too. There's no need to be little bitches about it.

The Mormons are a nice bunch of people. Just do your own thing and let them do theirs in peace.

RELAX.

We don't agree on religion, but we do agree on this, Doug. Thank you for pointing out their hypocracy. They should be ashamed. It's no wonder to me that many people take the atheist or agnostic road, as you have, in the face of all this hypocracy.

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: MechJinx
You are more than welcome to slam the door in the face of the missionaries, they are used to it I had my fair share of doors slammed in my face on my mission. It comes with the territory. You do not have to listen, you don't even have to answer the door. In fact, you can chase off your property with a gun if you'd like(happened to me once, fun story). I promise most missionaries won't hold a grudge against you

I usually just confirm with them that no, I don't have to be a mormon to go to heaven, and then explain that I'm quite comfortable with my belief system, and lived in Utah for four years so I picked up enough about the religion to know it's not for me.
It was kinda funny, last time this happened, I went out in my back yard to do something after they left, and I heard one of the neighbors go "Aaaah! Tell them we worship Satan or something!"

Originally posted by: Papagayo
Ask them about their special underwear..

Mormons have sacred underware of sort that they don't like to talk about..

This is one of the things I never managed to learn much about. When I was in Basic Training, we had one of these guys, and he had his own special undershirt to wear, but would never really explain much about it, other than it was religious.

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: MechJinx
As for the reasons the press was destroyed, it was NOT destroyed for printing an article about his secret sexual liasons. That is blatantly false, read accurate information next time.

He did have a desire to run for President, which I imagine he would have lost big time if he had a chance to run before being killed. He did not set up a secret government or have himself crowned King of the Kingdom of God. False info again. He was the Prophet (President) of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Much like the Pope is the leader of the Catholic church

Mormon writers often refer to the Nauvoo Expositor as a scandalous and vile publication, but in reality it advocated high morals and obedience to the law. This newspaper was strongly opposed to Joseph Smith's "political schemes." The thing that really disturbed the Mormon leaders, however, was that the Nauvoo Expositor exposed Joseph Smith's secret teaching on polygamy. In an affidavit published in the Nauvoo Expositor, June 7, 1844, Austin Cowles charged:

In the latter part of the summer, 1843, the Patriarch, Hyrum Smith, did in the High Council, of which I was a member, introduce what he said was a revelation given through the Prophet;... according to his reading there was contained the following doctrines; 1st, the sealing up of persons to eternal life, against all sins, save that of shedding innocent blood or of consenting thereto; 2nd, the doctrine of a plurality of wives, or marrying virgins; that "David and Solomon had many wives, yet in this they sinned not save in the matter of Uriah."

The Mormon leaders claimed that Austin Cowles had lied, but eight years after Joseph Smith's death they published the revelation on polygamy. This revelation proves beyond all doubt that the statements in the Expositor were true. Thus it is clear that the Expositor was condemned on the basis of false testimony given by Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum.

In a synopsis of the proceedings of the Nauvoo City Council we find the following:

Mayor [Joseph Smith] said, if he had a City Council who felt as he did, the establishment (referring to the Nauvoo Expositor) would be declared a nuisance before night....

Councilor Stiles said ... he would go in for suppressing all further publications of the kind.

Councilor Hyrum Smith believed the best way was to smash the press and pi the type (History of the Church, vol. 6, pp.441,445).

The Nauvoo City Council ordered the press to be destroyed. The following is recorded in Joseph Smith's history under the date of June 10, 1844: "The Council passed an ordinance declaring the Nauvoo Expositor a nuisance, and also issued an order to me to abate the said nuisance. I immediately ordered the Marshal to destroy it without delay.... About 8 p.m., the Marshal returned and reported that he had removed the press,type, printed paper, and fixtures into the street, and destroyed them" (History of the Church, vol. 6, p.432).

Mormon historian B. H. Roberts concedes concerning the destruction of the Expositor that, "the legality of the action of the Mayor and City Council was, of course, questionable, though some sought to defend it on legal grounds; but it must be conceded that neither proof nor argument for legality are convincing. On the grounds of expediency or necessity the action is more defensible" (History of the Church, vol. 6, p.xxxviii).

History disagrees with you.

 

[Atomicus]

Originally posted by: DougK62
I can't believe so many of you "Christians" in here ragging on the Mormons. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

OBVIOUSLY you don't agree with what they teach - if you did you'd be a Mormon too. There's no need to be little bitches about it.

The Mormons are a nice bunch of people. Just do your own thing and let them do theirs in peace.

RELAX.

It isn't that we don't agree with what they teach, rather their manipulation/amending of the scripture. Polygamy, each man becoming their own "god" so to speak, and various blasphemous ideas that are not present in the Koran nor the Bible are in their "book of the mormon"

But WHATEVER. I don't want to flame, but I sure as heck know that the Mormons will be flaming along with me in the lake of fire after the rapture :|

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: Vic
I have made no secret of the fact that I grew up in the Mormon church, but left it when I was 16 for personal reasons.
Your links (as always) are full of the lies from ex-communicated members. The "historical fact", as you call it, is seriously lacking.

I know you grew up in the LDS faith and like the faithful you continue to defend the faith. Your response is highly typical, you accuse those who left the faith willingly who want to talk about the what the church actually believes of being disgruntled excommunicated members. Everything on the page I posted is referenced historical fact. I enourage you to prove that false.

 

[DougK62]

Originally posted by: Atomicus

Originally posted by: DougK62
I can't believe so many of you "Christians" in here ragging on the Mormons. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

OBVIOUSLY you don't agree with what they teach - if you did you'd be a Mormon too. There's no need to be little bitches about it.

The Mormons are a nice bunch of people. Just do your own thing and let them do theirs in peace.

RELAX.

It isn't that we don't agree with what they teach, rather their manipulation/amending of the scripture. Polygamy, each man becoming their own "god" so to speak, and various blasphemous ideas that are not present in the Koran nor the Bible are in their "book of the mormon"

But WHATEVER. I don't want to flame, but I sure as heck know that the Mormons will be flaming along with me in the lake of fire after the rapture :|

WAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH

Mormons are nice people, they help out in the community, and they live good and decent lives. That's good enough for me.

I think that everyone bashing other religions should take a step back and look at what REALLY matters. You could be focusing your efforts on things that really mean something and could help to make the world a better place - gangs, poor school conditions, world hunger, disease, etc.

Which do you think your god would rather have you do?

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: DougK62
I think that everyone bashing other religions should take a step back and look at what REALLY matters. You could be focusing your efforts on things that really mean something and could help to make the world a better place - gangs, poor school conditions, world hunger, disease, etc.

Which do you think your god would rather have you do?

I don't have a god, I have all kinds of time!

 

[xirtam]

Originally posted by: FoBoT

Originally posted by: RaDragon
Out of curiosity, there are 12 major denominations of Christians, not including the smaller churches -- why go with a non-Christian church?

you are implying that the church in question is "non-Christian" , that is false

It's not false. One of the major points in contention between the mormon faith and Christianity is the concept of God, which is foundational to any faith. A mormon is taught, "As God is, man may become." (in a speech by Joseph Smith, echoed by Lorenzo Snow, and it may have worked its way somewhere into Doctrine and Covenant.) Christians are taught that men are naturally evil and sinful and require salvation by faith in Christ. Mormons practice a salvation by works, which is why I see a lot more devoted mormons than Christians.

Your faith isn't something you should choose on the basis of what good it can do for you or because you like being around those kinds of people or because you feel like you should or because your parents drag you to church. The only reason to accept a faith is because you believe it to be true.

 

[JulesMaximus]

No caffiene + No booze + No gambling = No way Jose!!!

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: rbloedow
Astonishing - choosing a religion because of the perception that people who follow it are "nice". Who cares what kinds of crazy sh!t they do - as long as the people are nice I say give it a go!

:roll:

I heard the Branch Davidians were nice people...

 

[bobbybe01]

Originally posted by: Atomicus

Originally posted by: DougK62
I can't believe so many of you "Christians" in here ragging on the Mormons. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

OBVIOUSLY you don't agree with what they teach - if you did you'd be a Mormon too. There's no need to be little bitches about it.

The Mormons are a nice bunch of people. Just do your own thing and let them do theirs in peace.

RELAX.

It isn't that we don't agree with what they teach, rather their manipulation/amending of the scripture. Polygamy, each man becoming their own "god" so to speak, and various blasphemous ideas that are not present in the Koran nor the Bible are in their "book of the mormon"

But WHATEVER. I don't want to flame, but I sure as heck know that the Mormons will be flaming along with me in the lake of fire after the rapture :|

Gee, if you read The Book of Mormon, you would not have found any of that information in there! Wow!
Polygamy is mentioned in the Bible. Each man becoming their own "god" is not referenced in the Bible directly, look in Romans and Revlations. The Doctrine and Covenants (other scriptures which we have) does mention eternal progression and inheirting all that the Father hath; being joint-heirs with Christ.

I'm not really sure how this is all blasphemous. The Pharisees and the Sanhedrein in Jesus' day thought he was being blasphemous. And, just like some of those New Testament times, there were those who believed Jesus and the Apostles were nuts. They were unwilling to listen.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: Electric Amish
I wish I knew more about Islam, and the asian religions because I'm sure they would contain similar "far out" or "crazy" beliefs.

I took a class that taught a little about a few religions. Islmam was the main one. We had a guy come from the local Masqu and talk with us every day for 3 weeks. IT was a eye openeing time.

After the 3 weeks i walked away with a deep respect for the religion. What you see in the news is just a small percantage of how most who fallow it are.

I just wish i could remember it all. we went over a LOT of information (even watched a movie on it!) in the time. But it is something to study if you are interested.

I have always been intrigued by diffrent religions. I have tried to to talk with someone (priest/father.rabbie etc) from each one. I still have yet to talk to a Jewish leader. Not many of them in the farming area i live heh.

anway as i said the Islamic religion is actually pretty good. worht the time to read the Quran (yeah mispelled it i think) and try to understand the teaching and history. its pretty amazing.

That's not the only thing you misspelled...

Percantage?

Masqu?

Fallow?

Rabbie?

Worht? (I'll give you that one as a typo)

Christ you even misspelled misspelled! :roll: