"Science is liberal and anti-American." (Conservapedia)

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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,706
6,486
126
Don't you think talking about favorite cookie flavors is just as meaningful? You've created your own god with attributes you like which is called idolatry.

Ah, so perhaps you asked so that is what you could tell me.

I used to have idolatry on my blackboard. It gave me a lot of self importance to know to whom it applied. I knew so much more then than I do now.
 

buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
9,916
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Ah, so perhaps you asked so that is what you could tell me.

I used to have idolatry on my blackboard. It gave me a lot of self importance to know to whom it applied. I knew so much more then than I do now.
I asked you because I wanted to know.

Do you disagree that the god you are describing is your own creation? If not, why?
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
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All of those things are covered with definition number 2 linked above.
It seems you don't know the difference between a noun and a verb. For example, living a lie is a completely different thing than the act of lying. I said if you want to get technical and these are the technicalities, sorry. This whole conversation is moot anyway as it was pointed out early on that your translation of the Koran was incorrect.
 

Cozarkian

Golden Member
Feb 2, 2012
1,352
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Really? A lie is something committed by someone. The second definition covers his act precisely. He's lying.

I presume you have a dictionary definition with that verbatim language? Because if you are relying on interpretation of dictionaries or sources than other dictionaries, then common understanding and usage is the best source.

As you are almost certainly aware, the example in the second definition of a "flahy car being a lie" would not be used by virtually anyone to argue the owner of the car is a liar.

People lie when they make knowingly false statements intended to be conveyed as truth. People deceive, but do not lie, when they make truthful statements that are likely to result in false assumptions if a careless listener fails to elicit further information.
 

buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
9,916
85
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It seems you don't know the difference between a noun and a verb.
That doesn't make any difference at all. Plus my argument wasn't about lies and lying it used lies and lying as an illustration. I'm not going to fall on my sword over lies and lying. I could make other illustrations to make my point. Arguing about ancillary points endlessly isn't what I'm going to do.

The only thing I'll say is that a lie must be committed in order to talk about it. So, your quibble makes no difference whatsoever.
This whole conversation is moot anyway as it was pointed out early on that your translation of the Koran was incorrect.
How uncritical of you. Since you're into irrelevant quibbling, I haven't translated one word of the Koran and I don't own a translation of it either.
 

buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
9,916
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People lie when they make knowingly false statements intended to be conveyed as truth. People deceive, but do not lie, when they make truthful statements that are likely to result in false assumptions if a careless listener fails to elicit further information.
That is just assuming and asserting your premise.

Look, I don't care. I'm not going to go on an endless quibble spree or fall on my sword over a point that really was just an illustration of my real point. Have at it but I'm out.
 

disappoint

Lifer
Dec 7, 2009
10,132
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Do you think you might have some anger issues?

I felt no anger when I made those posts. That doesn't mean I can't or don't feel anger. Nor do I suppress it. You don't suppress your anger do you?

Any emotion you perceived reading my posts was your own. Not mine.
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,466
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I have no idea but how do you know this isn't a satire site?

:p

That is just assuming and asserting your premise.

Look, I don't care. I'm not going to go on an endless quibble spree or fall on my sword over a point that really was just an illustration of my real point. Have at it but I'm out.

Really ?

You've all ready made about half the posts in the thread.

You're on another endless quibble spree right now, without posting much of anything real.

50% it the things you post amount to "I'm right, you're wrong, prove it" when you yourself can not prove a thing.
 
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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
36,656
31,501
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That doesn't make any difference at all. Plus my argument wasn't about lies and lying it used lies and lying as an illustration. I'm not going to fall on my sword over lies and lying. I could make other illustrations to make my point. Arguing about ancillary points endlessly isn't what I'm going to do.
It does make a difference when the argument is about whether it is possible to be deceitful while not lying.

The only thing I'll say is that a lie must be committed in order to talk about it. So, your quibble makes no difference whatsoever.
How uncritical of you. Since you're into irrelevant quibbling, I haven't translated one word of the Koran and I don't own a translation of it either.
But you own your post where you claimed the Koran said God is the most deceitful or whatever. If you aren't disputing the correction you should go back and edit your post so it isn't inaccurate.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,706
6,486
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I felt no anger when I made those posts. That doesn't mean I can't or don't feel anger. Nor do I suppress it. You don't suppress your anger do you?

Any emotion you perceived reading my posts was your own. Not mine.

Ah, but that is exactly how I knew you were angry despite your denials because you took a few words about pearls and went into a diatribe in which you accused DSF of being angry. Any anger you saw was your own, not his. You are pretty funny.

If you really do not suppress your anger, as you lie to me here that you don't, you would be able to tell me what anger is. Go ahead, feel your anger and you will be able to tell me.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
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Its original intent is definitely not as a satire site and the guy who runs it (Andrew Schlafly) is a certifiable nutcase. As of last time I checked he's in the process of rewriting the bible to remove all the supposed 'liberal bias'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservapedia#Conservative_Bible_Project
I thought I remembered that the guy who started it was actually serious, just . . . insane.

You mis understood the translation of that verse. You cannot take one verse out of context to prove your misguided point@!

http://discover-the-truth.com/2015/01/24/response-to-critics-claim-allah-is-a-deceiver-quran-354/

The aim of this article is to answer the claims made by Christian missionaries that Allah is a ‘deceiver’, and a ‘liar’, dealing with the word used in 8:58, 7:99 And 3:54. The verse we are going to examine is the following:


Transliteration:
Wamakaroo wamakara Allahu waAllahu khayru almakireena
Translation:
“And the disbelievers planned, but Allah planned. And Allah is the best of planners.” – Quran 3:54

The historical background for the verse is that the Jews ‘planned’ evil in order to get Jesus arrested and crucified. And Allah in the verse says as they planned evil, so too Allah planned to thwart their wicked plan. Christian missionaries have an issue with the words used for both the Jews and Allah. They prefer to translate this way:


“and [they] deceived and Allah deceived and Allah is the best of deceivers”

The above translation does not exist. It is only made up by crazy deluded missionaries in order to lead people astray. Arabic word(s) makr, Makara can be used negatively and for good. So when the Jews planned to get Jesus arrested and crucified, that was evil, whereas when Allah thwarted their evil plan by saving Jesus, this was good. So, the claim by missionaries that Allah is a deceiver for helping one of the Prophet’s from slaughter at the hands of evil, wicked people, these claims have no bearing on the passage historically.

Islamic scholar, Maulana Muhammad Shaffi mentions in his commentary on the verse that Allah’s planning involved no deception:


“In these verses the miraculous event of the Ascension of Sayyidna Isa (Jesus Christ) has been mentioned. ‘And they made a move’ refers to the evil designs of the Jews who planned to arrest him and to get him crucified.
The next sentence i.e., ‘and Allah made a move’ refers to the plan designed by Allah Almighty to save his Prophet Isa (Jesus) from their ill designs.
Let us begin with … translated as ‘and Allah is the best of those who make moves’. The word, makr in Arabic denotes a subtle and secret move or plan. If this is for a good purpose, it is good; and if this is for a bad purpose, it is bad. It is why the restriction of saiyy (… : evil) was placed with makr (…: move, plan) in: … (And evil plan besets none but its perpetrator – 35:43).” [1]

Maulana Muhammad Shaffi goes further on the word (‘Makr’) in volume 4 and writes:


“The word … (Makr) used in verse 21:… (say, ‘Allah is more swift in making plans’) means secret plan or move that could be good or bad. Whenever this word has become a part of the local language, care should be taken that it is not rendered as deception’. … It is obvious that Allah Ta’ala is free from it. The warning given in verse 23: … (your rebellion is, in fact, against your own-selves) tells us that the curse of injustice is certain and, much before matters are settled in the hereafter, one who is guilty of doing injustice must suffer from its evil consequences in this world as well. The Holy Prophet has said: ‘Allah Ta’ala hastens to repay mercy shown to relatives and favour done to people (whereby its blessings start becoming visible in this world, much before the Hereafter). And He hastens to repay injustices done and relationships severed (in that its consequences have to be faced within the life of this world). (reported by Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah with a hasan chain of narrators)
In another Hadith narrated by Sayyidah A’ishah…, the Holy Prophet said, ‘there are three sins the curse whereof falls on the sinner himself: Injustice, breach of trust and deception.’ (Reported by Abu ash-Shaykh and Ibn Marduwayh in Tafsir) (See Mazhari). [2]

Scholar Maulana Muhammad Ali


54a. Makr is explained by R as the turning of another with ingenuity or skill from that which he aims at, and he considers makr as of two sorts, a good one and an evil one. Therefore the best interpretation of the word Makara (including both sorts) is that adopted by T, viz he exercised craft, cunning, art, or skill in the management or ordering of affairs with excellent consideration or deliberation, and ability to manage according to his own free will (LL). The idea of the plan being contrived for an evil purpose or clandestinely, which is included in the significance of the word, has led many to take that idea as its exclusive significance, which is not the case. Makar-Llahu may also signify that Allah recompensed or requited them for their makr (T-LL). According to some, its original significance is the gathering of an affair and its strengthening (Rz). All these explanations show that it is the equivalent of the word plan, the good or evil nature of the plan being dependent on the object or doer’s intention. Allah is called here Khair al-makarin or the Best of planners, the qualifying word khair being inapplicable to an evil object.
54b. The Jews planned to put Jesus to death by crucifixion, and Allah made a plan to frustrate their plans; and Allah’s plan was successful… [3]

Glossary Of Islamic Terms: English–Arabic – Anwer Mahmoud Zanaty:


MAKR
Has two meanings:
1. Plotting or planning evil intent.
2. Planning for a good purpose: ‘Wa Makaru wa Makara Allah wa’LLahu Khairul Makereen’ (Surah Aali Imran 3:54. They planned and Allah planned and Allah is the best of planners’.
Makara = they plotted. Makara = He planned.
Makkar = plotter.
Makereen = plotters. [4]

The meaning of the Noble Qur’an – Abdullah Yusuf Ali


6078: Makara is applied both to plotting with an evil purpose and planning with a good purpose. Cf. 3:54, and 0. 392 ‘And the unbelievers plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.’ [5]

The Message of The Quran – Muhammad Asad


44 Lit., they schemed’ – here referring to those among the Jews who refused to acknowledge Jesus as a prophet and tried to destroy him. [6]

The above Islamic scholars make it quite clear that when Makr is used for Allah there is no deception. It depends on the object, hence, was it for a good purpose or evil? When Allah plans to thwart the evil plans of disbelievers against Jesus, that is good. How is this in any way evil? Is it wrong to help an innocent person and stopping an evil plan?
As soon as I read "Wamakaroo wamakara Allahu waAllahu khayru almakireena" I knew that wasn't a real language, but something made up on the fly. The argument that makr simultaneously means plotting for evil and plotting goof just nails it. If I ever invent my own nonsense language, it too will be composed of words that mean anything I want - even opposites.

Well at least we all speak the same language here.

oh wait...
:D +1
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,221
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If you want to know whether a wiki site is meant for satire, the easiest way is to read the "about" text by the site's creators. This is how I verified for sure that enclylopdia dramatica is a satire site - because it's creators say it is. This is what the creators of Conservapedia have to say about it:

http://www.conservapedia.com/Conservapedia:About

Short answer: sadly, it isn't meant as satire.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
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Given that conservatism is precedent-based in its worldview, literally by definition, then any evidence-based worldview, like science, is going to be opposed by conservatives.
 

buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
9,916
85
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Given that conservatism is precedent-based in its worldview, literally by definition, then any evidence-based worldview, like science, is going to be opposed by conservatives.
Like believing biological machines were built by random mutation and selection? No evidence, at all, for this belief and it's what "science" is telling us.
 

buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
9,916
85
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It does make a difference when the argument is about whether it is possible to be deceitful while not lying.
Now I see what Brad was talking about. I'll leave it at this as none of it is my main point anyway.
But you own your post where you claimed the Koran said God is the most deceitful or whatever. If you aren't disputing the correction you should go back and edit your post so it isn't inaccurate.
That is in the text, I didn't make that text up and I didn't translate it. Why are you so quick to believe something because I decided not to refute it? It isn't the point I was making so I didn't argue against it.

The argument they are making in that article is that Allah should be given special treatment, not that the text doesn't say what I said it says. The same word is used for the Jews being deceitful as Allah but with Allah its ok for reasons.
 

buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
9,916
85
91
If you want to know whether a wiki site is meant for satire, the easiest way is to read the "about" text by the site's creators. This is how I verified for sure that enclylopdia dramatica is a satire site - because it's creators say it is. This is what the creators of Conservapedia have to say about it:

http://www.conservapedia.com/Conservapedia:About

Short answer: sadly, it isn't meant as satire.
That could be part of the satire! Horrible logic.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
If you want to know whether a wiki site is meant for satire, the easiest way is to read the "about" text by the site's creators. This is how I verified for sure that enclylopdia dramatica is a satire site - because it's creators say it is. This is what the creators of Conservapedia have to say about it:

http://www.conservapedia.com/Conservapedia:About

Short answer: sadly, it isn't meant as satire.
Not being meant as satire and not being satire are two vastly different things when the public is free to play with your site.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Like believing biological machines were built by random mutation and selection? No evidence, at all, for this belief and it's what "science" is telling us.
Occam's Razor is arguably the most important of scientific principles, this is true. Given any 2 or more arguments, the one with the least number of assumptions is most likely to be the truth. And faith is, by definition, an assumption.