Russia on brink of ... NOPE! Russia INVADES Ukraine!

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K1052

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
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NTMBK said:
EDIT: Hell, give the Leopard 1s to our army, and let Ukraine have every Challenger 2.
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If I was the UK I'd probably abandon the Challenger 3 project, ship the Challenger 2s to Ukraine, lease M1s from the US, and buy either the K2 or Abrams X.

The wailing from the certain circles would be epically loud but would eventually subside.
 
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brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
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K1052 said:
If I was the UK I'd probably abandon the Challenger 3 project, ship the Challenger 2s to Ukraine, lease M1s from the US, and buy either the K2 or Abrams X.

The wailing from the certain circles would be epically loud but would eventually subside.
Click to expand...
The cost of building a few hundred at most bespoke MBTs is just nuts. If the UK can't get the export deals to build more then yeah I would agree time to move to another platform.
 
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NTMBK

NTMBK

Lifer
Nov 14, 2011
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brycejones said:
The cost of building a few hundred at most bespoke MBTs is just nuts. If the UK can't get the export deals to build more then yeah I would agree time to move to another platform.
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NATO needs to get better at standardising on a design and then manufacturing locally. There's no reason why France, Germany, and the UK should be producing incompatible designs, and it just complicates things. Cooperate on a design, share the IP, and build up the capacity to produce it locally in multiple countries.
 
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brycejones

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Oct 18, 2005
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NTMBK said:
NATO needs to get better at standardising on a design and then manufacturing locally. There's no reason why France, Germany, and the UK should be producing incompatible designs, and it just complicates things. Cooperate on a design, share the IP, and build up the capacity to produce it locally in multiple countries.
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Dozens of programs have attempted to do that and typically fall apart over countries running out of money or not being satisfied with how the work is going to be split up so they go their own way.
 
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K1052

K1052

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France, Italy, and Germany are going together on a next generation tank but it's not going to be ready until the middle of the next decade at the earliest. Given the age of the European tank fleet a lot of countries can't wait that long for new armor.
 
NTMBK

NTMBK

Lifer
Nov 14, 2011
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brycejones said:
Dozens of programs have attempted to do that and typically fall apart over countries running out of money or not being satisfied with how the work is going to be split up so they go their own way.
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It worked for Tornado and Typhoon. Current events are a good example of why they should try harder. Warsaw Pact equipment is so ubiquitous and interoperable that both Ukraine and Russia are widely using it- meanwhile, NATO are providing 12 of this type, 30 of that type, etc.
 
JEDI

JEDI

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Sep 25, 2001
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Ukraine will soon have 4 additional types of MBTs in addition to whatever Soviet mbt they are currently using:
14 Challenger2 (uk)
Lots of leopards (germany, poland, etc)
31 abrams (usa)
Leclerc (France)

i can see supply chain issues:
all the different types of ammo, spare parts, fuel, etc
 
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rommelrommel

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2002
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JEDI said:
Ukraine will soon have 4 additional types of MBTs in addition to whatever Soviet mbt they are currently using:
14 Challenger2 (uk)
Lots of leopards (germany, poland, etc)
31 abrams (usa)
Leclerc (France)

i can see supply chain issues:
all the different types of ammo, spare parts, fuel, etc
Click to expand...

You know what’s worse than supply chain issues with your new tanks limiting their utility a bit? No tanks at all.
 
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Brovane

Brovane

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Dec 18, 2001
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JEDI said:
Ukraine will soon have 4 additional types of MBTs in addition to whatever Soviet mbt they are currently using:
14 Challenger2 (uk)
Lots of leopards (germany, poland, etc)
31 abrams (usa)
Leclerc (France)

i can see supply chain issues:
all the different types of ammo, spare parts, fuel, etc
Click to expand...

LeClerc, Leopard 2 and Abrams all use the same main gun ammo 120mm. Challenger 2 has a rifled 120mm gun which uses different ammo.
All these tanks are NATO tanks so there is some commonality between them. However yeah there will be some logistical challenges with multiple types of MBT's in the same units.
Realistically it would probably be better for Ukraine to just use the Leopard. Or for the US to supply enough Abrams to fill out one armored brigade about 90-100 tanks. Then the 2nd brigade just have Leopard 2's. Usually armored divisions will have 3 brigades. So one brigade Abrams, One brigade Leopards and then the 3rd brigade have T-series tanks. This would give Ukraine a fairly effective armored fist to liberate their country from the occupiers.
 
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K1052

K1052

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Kinda hoping the French don’t send the Leclerc and just pay for overhauls of all the Spanish 2A4s or something instead. Some of them need a lot of work to be usable.
 
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Brovane

Brovane

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K1052 said:
Kinda hoping the French don’t send the Leclerc and just pay for overhauls of all the Spanish 2A4s or something instead. Some of them need a lot of work to be usable.
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I think the Leopard and the Abrams are the only tanks that can be sent in actual usable quantities to make it worth Ukraine's while to setup a logistical tail for them. In a perfect world it would just be the Leopard but that would require a lot more Leopards than are actually available and the US has a lot of Abrams in storage.
 
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gorobei

gorobei

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Ward Carroll interviewed Justin Bronk of RUSI on the tanks.
the leopard is apparently better for UKR because Germany has more ancillary vehicles available for recovery/tranport/bridge/ford/etc of the leopards to send. the UKR train system will need to be adapted to handle the heavier nato tanks. the availability of 2A4-2A6 spare parts is better as they are still running the production lines to support their export customers.

he warns that 2 months ago was the time to send the tanks so the crews could train on them ahead of the spring offensive. also you have to assume that the rus mobilization and wartime production ramp will eventually yield results so if UKR doesnt make the major breakthru by 4th quarter of 2023, rus positions will have time to harden the defenses and it will be far harder to retake territory.
 
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K1052

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
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Brovane said:
I think the Leopard and the Abrams are the only tanks that can be sent in actual usable quantities to make it worth Ukraine's while to setup a logistical tail for them. In a perfect world it would just be the Leopard but that would require a lot more Leopards than are actually available and the US has a lot of Abrams in storage.
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The limited number of available 3rd gen tanks might be part of the reason they still want to get ahold of Leopard 1s. There are easily hundreds to be had. Ukraine’s T series fleets have surely taken a beating over the last year and face availability issues. This would be a reasonable stopgap.
 
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Grabo

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Apr 5, 2005
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Since everyone including our neighbours want the F35 we should send a couple of Gripens southeast. They're pretty good at taking off and landing at improvised runways (bits of road) as I understand it (less distance needed) which may come in handy. I don't think this will ever materialize though, maybe a couple of tanks if our neighbours are sending tanks too.
 
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K1052

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
51,239
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Grabo said:
Since everyone including our neighbours want the F35 we should send a couple of Gripens southeast. They're pretty good at taking off and landing at improvised runways (bits of road) as I understand it (less distance needed) which may come in handy. I don't think this will ever materialize though, maybe a couple of tanks if our neighbours are sending tanks too.
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Sweden is sending 50 CV90s which are excellent IFVs and about 20 Archer 155mm which is probably the best SPG on the planet. I have no doubt Ukraine appreciates these generous contributions.
 
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Grabo

Senior member
Apr 5, 2005
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K1052 said:
Sweden is sending 50 CV90s which are excellent IFVs and about 20 Archer 155mm which is probably the best SPG on the planet. I have no doubt Ukraine appreciates these generous contributions.
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Yes. Quite a lot of heavy caliber entities coming into UA now from many countries, I hope the invading forces feel their contribution this spring and summer.
 
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