Gardener
Senior member
- Nov 22, 1999
- 697
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For what it's worth, the defensive depth described by the author is as good as it gets.
For what it's worth, the defensive depth described by the author is as good as it gets.
Kind of sick of Ukrainian asks being framed as demands. Them saying they really need things or that they would be super helpful do not make them demands. Like they say, if you don’t ask you don’t get.
- Oct 9, 1999
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woolfe9998
Lifer
- Apr 8, 2013
- 15,741
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So if I'm reading this right, Ukraine itself has a pretty solid MBT which is the T-84, an improved version of the Soviet T-80. First made in the 90's but they never made very many, and sold most of the ones they made to Thailand. So they have only a handful of them.
I guess it's too bad they didn't make more.
I guess it's too bad they didn't make more.
Jaskalas
Lifer
- Jun 23, 2004
- 32,290
- 6,339
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Fox News sells that narrative and Republicans nod their empty heads in unison.
The goal is to mark Ukraine as a hostile enemy that is taking advantage of the poor, weak, broke US without a dime to spare. That we have no choice but to let the world fall to ruin. And they were never good people anyways, so who cares. Not our problem.
That's the Republican narrative.
To what end, to serve what goal?
Trump / Republicans want to refuse support of Ukraine, to leave a nation of 44 million people to a butcher for the slaughter.
Why? For the megalomaniacal bruised ego of pure evil.
Sorry to bring this thing into the subject, but Republicans want power so that Putin can win. Do not underestimate that.
cytg111
Lifer
- Mar 17, 2008
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NTMBK
Lifer
- Nov 14, 2011
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JEDI
Lifer
- Sep 25, 2001
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Yes Donald, we know that Russia sent in the tanks and invaded Ukraine.
And we know Putin is constantly threatening nukes.
We are trying to end this by helping Ukraine stop them
Last edited:
Brovane
Diamond Member
- Dec 18, 2001
- 4,810
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Russians Mourn Ukrainians Killed in War at Statue to a Ukrainian Poet in Moscow
There is a statue of a Ukrainian writer in Moscow and Russian in Moscow have been using it as a make shift memorial to victims of Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Wonder how long it will be until the statue just disappears?
MOSCOW—Every few minutes, the mourners came, alone, in pairs or in families, to a statue of a Ukrainian writer standing in the center of the Russian capital, laying flowers and stuffed animals at her bronze feet.
Some said a prayer and left quickly. Others wept. Still others sat for hours on benches nearby, watching in silence as a small but regular flow of people visited what has become a makeshift memorial to victims of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.
“This is the only chance to somehow ease your soul,” said Olga Zimina, who has visited the site three times. “It’s been nearly a year since my country began killing people in a neighboring country. It’s a pain that isn’t going away.”
A doctor who went to the improvised memorial with her husband said she doesn’t expect Ukrainians to ever forgive Russians. She visited as an admission of guilt, she said.
“I believe that it’s up to Ukrainians to decide what kind of people we are to them,” she said. “After what’s happened, there clearly can’t be any talk of brotherly relations.”
The statue isn’t the only site where Russians mourned those killed in the Dnipro apartment strike. Across the country, Russians showed up to other improvised memorials at sculptures of Ukrainian literary figures, including Ukrainian national poet Taras Shevchenko.
“It’s very hard to feel this helplessness, that you can’t do anything,” said Ms. Zimina.
A photography-lab worker, Ms. Zimina considered emigrating but has elderly parents to care for, she said. After the Dnipro apartment strike, she said she mulled writing an antiwar message on a poster and taking it to Red Square, but then sobered up at the thought that she would be detained for doing so and forced to pay a fine—which, she said, would go toward supporting the Russian war machine.
“I don’t know what to do. I just don’t know what to do,” she said through tears. “I can’t stop the war.”
As Ms. Zimina spoke, police officers stood watch a few yards away. Several times throughout the day, they removed the flowers and children’s toys that kept being laid down at the foot of the statue. Among one of the piles over the weekend was a letter that read: “We weep together with you every day.”
Surveys by both state-run and independent pollsters nonetheless show a majority of Russians support the war. But Greg Yudin, a professor of political philosophy at the Moscow School of Social and Economic Sciences and a visiting scholar at Princeton University, said the focus on the degree of domestic support for the war is misplaced given that the country’s authoritarian regime has spent two decades teaching people to stay out of politics.
“Polls show that if Putin says Russians should like the color white, then they’ll like the color white. If black, then they’ll like the color black,” he said. “It’s a test of loyalty to the czar.”
The tragedy of contemporary Russian society isn’t rabid support for the war but complete depoliticization, he said. And in that context, the stream of Russians to makeshift memorials shows that there is potential for protest beneath the surface, he said."
There is a statue of a Ukrainian writer in Moscow and Russian in Moscow have been using it as a make shift memorial to victims of Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Wonder how long it will be until the statue just disappears?
MOSCOW—Every few minutes, the mourners came, alone, in pairs or in families, to a statue of a Ukrainian writer standing in the center of the Russian capital, laying flowers and stuffed animals at her bronze feet.
Some said a prayer and left quickly. Others wept. Still others sat for hours on benches nearby, watching in silence as a small but regular flow of people visited what has become a makeshift memorial to victims of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.
“This is the only chance to somehow ease your soul,” said Olga Zimina, who has visited the site three times. “It’s been nearly a year since my country began killing people in a neighboring country. It’s a pain that isn’t going away.”
A doctor who went to the improvised memorial with her husband said she doesn’t expect Ukrainians to ever forgive Russians. She visited as an admission of guilt, she said.
“I believe that it’s up to Ukrainians to decide what kind of people we are to them,” she said. “After what’s happened, there clearly can’t be any talk of brotherly relations.”
The statue isn’t the only site where Russians mourned those killed in the Dnipro apartment strike. Across the country, Russians showed up to other improvised memorials at sculptures of Ukrainian literary figures, including Ukrainian national poet Taras Shevchenko.
“It’s very hard to feel this helplessness, that you can’t do anything,” said Ms. Zimina.
A photography-lab worker, Ms. Zimina considered emigrating but has elderly parents to care for, she said. After the Dnipro apartment strike, she said she mulled writing an antiwar message on a poster and taking it to Red Square, but then sobered up at the thought that she would be detained for doing so and forced to pay a fine—which, she said, would go toward supporting the Russian war machine.
“I don’t know what to do. I just don’t know what to do,” she said through tears. “I can’t stop the war.”
As Ms. Zimina spoke, police officers stood watch a few yards away. Several times throughout the day, they removed the flowers and children’s toys that kept being laid down at the foot of the statue. Among one of the piles over the weekend was a letter that read: “We weep together with you every day.”
Surveys by both state-run and independent pollsters nonetheless show a majority of Russians support the war. But Greg Yudin, a professor of political philosophy at the Moscow School of Social and Economic Sciences and a visiting scholar at Princeton University, said the focus on the degree of domestic support for the war is misplaced given that the country’s authoritarian regime has spent two decades teaching people to stay out of politics.
“Polls show that if Putin says Russians should like the color white, then they’ll like the color white. If black, then they’ll like the color black,” he said. “It’s a test of loyalty to the czar.”
The tragedy of contemporary Russian society isn’t rabid support for the war but complete depoliticization, he said. And in that context, the stream of Russians to makeshift memorials shows that there is potential for protest beneath the surface, he said."
Brovane
Diamond Member
- Dec 18, 2001
- 4,810
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- 126
Oh yeah, it is easy to end the war, just give Russia everything it wants....
Ukrainians have shown us by their actions that they would rather die on their feet than live on their knees under Russian rule.
"Let’s set the record straight. There is no argument over the choice between peace and war, but there is only one guaranteed way you can have peace–and you can have it in the next second–surrender." - Ronald Reagan
JEDI
Lifer
- Sep 25, 2001
- 29,413
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dont you need to control of the air before sending in tanks?
tanks make a big target.
russia has better planes than ukraine?
tanks make a big target.
russia has better planes than ukraine?
JEDI
Lifer
- Sep 25, 2001
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Dogfight: if German Leopard 2 meets Russian T-90M in Ukraine
bulgarianmilitary.com
- The Russian tank would win, relying on the inexperience with this technique of the Ukrainian crew.
- The German tank would also win, relying on its better maneuverability.
This battle will be decided by these two metrics. Neither armament nor armor is capable of giving one an advantage over the other.
ehh.. isnt the russian tank crews also inexperienced?
didnt most of the 1st wave of russian tanks go 'jack in the box' thx to Ukraine's use of Allied shoulder mounted anti-tank missiles?
Dogfight: if German Leopard 2 meets Russian T-90M in Ukraine
Sooner or later Ukraine will get Leopard tanks. So - if Leopard 2 meets the Russian T-90M tank who will have the upper hand? Read this our tank dogfight comment
bulgarianmilitary.com
- The Russian tank would win, relying on the inexperience with this technique of the Ukrainian crew.
- The German tank would also win, relying on its better maneuverability.
This battle will be decided by these two metrics. Neither armament nor armor is capable of giving one an advantage over the other.
ehh.. isnt the russian tank crews also inexperienced?
didnt most of the 1st wave of russian tanks go 'jack in the box' thx to Ukraine's use of Allied shoulder mounted anti-tank missiles?
Commodus
Diamond Member
- Oct 9, 2004
- 9,155
- 6,723
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Dogfight: if German Leopard 2 meets Russian T-90M in Ukraine
Dogfight: if German Leopard 2 meets Russian T-90M in Ukraine
Sooner or later Ukraine will get Leopard tanks. So - if Leopard 2 meets the Russian T-90M tank who will have the upper hand? Read this our tank dogfight comment
- The Russian tank would win, relying on the inexperience with this technique of the Ukrainian crew.
- The German tank would also win, relying on its better maneuverability.
This battle will be decided by these two metrics. Neither armament nor armor is capable of giving one an advantage over the other.
ehh.. isnt the russian tank crews also inexperienced?
didnt most of the 1st wave of russian tanks go 'jack in the box' thx to Ukraine's use of Allied shoulder mounted anti-tank missiles?
The very issue with this scenario is that it assumes Russia can field enough T-90Ms in the first place, let alone put experienced crews inside. The country wouldn't be digging through decades-old inventory if it could afford to put newer tanks on the front line.
Besides, we know Russia is struggling even when it isn't facing Leopard 2s and other reasonably modern armor. It's only going to have a tougher time going forward.
Russian pilots are generally using stand off weapons from inside Russian air space. Great for hitting fixed targets useless for mobile targets on the battlefield.
I have no idea which is better but I am skeptical of any analysis that doesn't include optics and fire control system comparison.Dogfight: if German Leopard 2 meets Russian T-90M in Ukraine
Dogfight: if German Leopard 2 meets Russian T-90M in Ukraine
Sooner or later Ukraine will get Leopard tanks. So - if Leopard 2 meets the Russian T-90M tank who will have the upper hand? Read this our tank dogfight comment
- The Russian tank would win, relying on the inexperience with this technique of the Ukrainian crew.
- The German tank would also win, relying on its better maneuverability.
This battle will be decided by these two metrics. Neither armament nor armor is capable of giving one an advantage over the other.
ehh.. isnt the russian tank crews also inexperienced?
didnt most of the 1st wave of russian tanks go 'jack in the box' thx to Ukraine's use of Allied shoulder mounted anti-tank missiles?
K1052
Lifer
- Aug 21, 2003
- 43,199
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Poland will eventually transfer all their T-72M1s (undergoing refits) and PT-91s to Ukraine as they keep receiving M1 and K2 shipments. The rest of the Leopards will go after those. They definitely don't want to operate 4-5 different MBTs. Poland will eventually supply Ukraine with over 500 tanks just own their own.
I believe Ukraine has enough air defense where Russia's use of air sorties have become increasingly limited
Brovane
Diamond Member
- Dec 18, 2001
- 4,810
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Unless Russia has precision weapons that allow long range stand-off. Targeting individual tanks will be difficult without getting in-close which puts them within range of MANPADS. This is why the A-10 probably wouldn't be a good weapon for Ukraine.
K1052
Lifer
- Aug 21, 2003
- 43,199
- 26,578
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If we also gave Ukraine ATACMS (or something else with comparable range) and they started smoking the S-300/400 sites the A-10 would make a very good bomb truck for high altitude sorties to drop SDBs and AGM-154.
Dogfight: if German Leopard 2 meets Russian T-90M in Ukraine
Dogfight: if German Leopard 2 meets Russian T-90M in Ukraine
Sooner or later Ukraine will get Leopard tanks. So - if Leopard 2 meets the Russian T-90M tank who will have the upper hand? Read this our tank dogfight comment
- The Russian tank would win, relying on the inexperience with this technique of the Ukrainian crew.
- The German tank would also win, relying on its better maneuverability.
This battle will be decided by these two metrics. Neither armament nor armor is capable of giving one an advantage over the other.
ehh.. isnt the russian tank crews also inexperienced?
didnt most of the 1st wave of russian tanks go 'jack in the box' thx to Ukraine's use of Allied shoulder mounted anti-tank missiles?
Tanks rarely meet on the dueling grounds.
K1052
Lifer
- Aug 21, 2003
- 43,199
- 26,578
- 136
The R-37 missile is still a problem for Ukraine but if they get long range strike capacity they could start clearing out the bases in Crimea.
Pens1566
Lifer
- Oct 11, 2005
- 10,456
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And there's only so much weight that can be placed on academic analysis. At some point real life field performance needs to be taken into account.
Jaskalas
Lifer
- Jun 23, 2004
- 32,290
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From those who experienced being mired in war torn atrocities.
On Holocaust Day, Polish PM accuses Putin of building 'new camps'
On Holocaust Day, Polish PM accuses Putin of building 'new camps'
"On the anniversary of the liberation of the Nazi German death camp Auschwitz-Birkenau, let us remember that to the east Putin is building new camps," Morawiecki said on Facebook.
"Solidarity and consistent support for Ukraine are effective ways to ensure that history does not come full circle," he added.
cytg111
Lifer
- Mar 17, 2008
- 21,287
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My line of reasoning goes to the quality of the intelligence they’re operating from… Does it even matter what tank Putin shows up in? Ukrainians with far superior intel and a western like doctrine of realtime adapt and overcome strategy on the battlefield. Does it even matter what Putin The Vlad rolls up in? Modern elite freedom fighters in prestine gear vs WW1 conscripts shitting themselves.
Does it matter?
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