Russia on brink of ... NOPE! Russia INVADES Ukraine!

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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,050
7,978
136
As the Abrahams is jet fuelled and it's a fact is uses twice the volume of a diesel MBT, I googled to find the answer and stumbled across this:

Author:


How come only the US Army decided to use a gas turbine for its M1 Abrams main battle tank despite its advantages while all other countries chose diesel engines?

Despite?

The first thing that must be understood about the Abrams, the one piece of perspective that makes everything else about it make sense, is this:

In 1970s, the United States decided it was possible to defeat the Warsaw Pact in conventional battle in Europe.

That's it. That's the show.

From 1950–1970, the Soviet juggernaut was considered invincible. Mutually Assured Destruction was the strategy.

If the USSR had gone West in 1965, the NATO allies would have used up their available ground forces, then plastered most of everything from the Netherlands to Switzerland, Bonn to Moscow, with thermonuclear fire, then retreated to a handful of facilities and waited for the Soviet bombs to drop.

Nuclear Armageddon. The 7th Angel pouring their bowl forth. Game over, man.

Something weird happened in the 1970′s, though. The Space Race began to alter how the US saw itself, especially in comparison to the USSR.

Remember, the West knew diddly-squat about the true state and power of the Communist East… until Apollo straight up left the Soviets eating dust.

The West also started to get better intelligence assets. Not Human ones, those had always been in the game, and by necessity taken with a grain of salt.

No, the West started getting pictures from satellites. Started tapping in on phones with microwave antennas far above the Earth.

Started to find out that the Red Army was mostly a paper tiger.

In addition, Vietnam had really rattled a lot of American cages. It had become clear that draftees just… weren't good enough anymore.

Not the levels of patriotism or verve the vast majority of draftees brought to the Service, but the time needed to make a modern warrior.

A proper Infantryman now took nearly 18 months to train correctly. Tankers, aviators, sailors in Nuclear powered ships, they needed even longer to train.

And so the United States and much of NATO (not all), went to volunteer units, who stayed in at least 4 years instead of 2.

The Soviets didn't.

A strange thing happens with volunteer forces. By virtue of greater practice and training, not to mention lots of people wanting a second hitch, or even a career, you start developing a really professional fighting force that knows what it is about. They can handle weapons systems that drafted Soldiers simply cannot learn in time to be useful.

And so weapons develop in complexity and power.

This brings me back to the Abrams. Its turbine was adopted at a time when Abrams was a lot lighter, and was governed to 50mph, not that much faster than other NATO tanks of the day.

However, my father trained the 3rd Infantry Division's maintenance guys on their new Abrams back in the 80′s.

In a pinch, a real pinch, that governor came right off and the engine worked just fine without it, allowing the Abrams to sprint at far greater speeds and still hit T-72 size targets at 1,000 meters or more.

See, the German Bundeswehr had to, for obvious reasons, defend every inch of their soil.

Can't very well just allow the Soviets to march all the way to the Rhine and then start resisting. However, even the mighty US Army was not going to stop the whole Soviet Army right on the border, so the idea was this:

Set up in a line, foxholes, artillery aiming points, close air support to include A-10s, Apache helicopters, and F-16s, and wait.

The Soviets would attack in Echelon, one regiment following the next. Remember, simpler tactics because their guys have not practiced as much.

The NATO, especially American and British, units, were to rip the faces off that first echelon, kill as many Soviets as possible, and then disappear.

Pull back a kilometer or two, and get set in the same sort of positions. Do this again and again and again until the spearpoint of the Soviet Army, equipped by 1985 with T-62, T-72, and T-80 tanks, was destroyed.

The Soviets would increasingly place their Category B divisions (broadly equivalent to US Army Reserve formations) in the field with older equipment.

And NATO would push into the attack.

The Abrams-equipped US Army would race forward, supported by British, French, and West German troops, would begin a blitzkrieg style assault across Germany, aiming generally at Moscow.

Here, again, the turbine engine if the Abrams would shine once more, outpacing anything the enemy could throw up, annihilating support and maintenance battalions, and making further resistance by Soviet front line troops untenable.

Eventually, the Soviet Army or the Soviet leadership would collapse. Most leading thinkers on the subject figure the Soviet Union would release Nuclear weapons against a single target, probably in England, and then the United States would respond from Minuteman silos in the Continental United States to make the point- yes, MAD is still in effect.

At which point, the current Soviet leadership would likely be overthrown and executed, and the matter settled at the conference table.

All of this to say that the US picked a turbine engine because blitzkrieg remains the best way to defeat Russia, and the United States does blitzkrieg better than anyone else.

Have no idea how seriously to take that analysis. But it reminds me of reading "The Third World War" back in the 1980s (confession: I didn't buy it, I sneakily read it while lurking in the bookshop!). I now gather that book had a slightly propagandist function. Maybe it was part of the very debate you allude to here?

 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,046
33,093
136
The most illustrative picture of what's likely going to happen when 3rd gen western MBTs and our IFVs hit Ukrainian soil is probably Iraq. Ukraine will have better recon at its disposal and the tanks, equipped with 120mm guns and modern optics, will probably engage T series tanks before the Russians know they are there. Same with the Bradley's TOWs and Milan on the Marder. BMPs will stand no chance whatsoever. Inside about 3km the 40mm gun on the CV90 will smoke anything less than a T-80.

A whole lot of things who's sole reason to exist is to blow up Soviet armor en masse are about to appear in Ukraine and there is no reason to think it's going to turn out well for the Russians.
 

Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
30,277
10,783
136
For a decent picture of what a conventional US/NATO war with the Soviets in the late 20th century might have looked like I suggest reading Tom Clancy's "Red Storm Rising".

Obviously it's entertainment and thus greatly embellished but the core-US strategy it revealed was close enough to the truth to get the author called in to answer questions related to how he knew about it.
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,043
8,742
136
As the Abrahams is jet fuelled and it's a fact is uses twice the volume of a diesel MBT, I googled to find the answer and stumbled across this:

Author:


How come only the US Army decided to use a gas turbine for its M1 Abrams main battle tank despite its advantages while all other countries chose diesel engines?

Despite?

The first thing that must be understood about the Abrams, the one piece of perspective that makes everything else about it make sense, is this:

In 1970s, the United States decided it was possible to defeat the Warsaw Pact in conventional battle in Europe.

That's it. That's the show.

From 1950–1970, the Soviet juggernaut was considered invincible. Mutually Assured Destruction was the strategy.

If the USSR had gone West in 1965, the NATO allies would have used up their available ground forces, then plastered most of everything from the Netherlands to Switzerland, Bonn to Moscow, with thermonuclear fire, then retreated to a handful of facilities and waited for the Soviet bombs to drop.

Nuclear Armageddon. The 7th Angel pouring their bowl forth. Game over, man.

Something weird happened in the 1970′s, though. The Space Race began to alter how the US saw itself, especially in comparison to the USSR.

Remember, the West knew diddly-squat about the true state and power of the Communist East… until Apollo straight up left the Soviets eating dust.

The West also started to get better intelligence assets. Not Human ones, those had always been in the game, and by necessity taken with a grain of salt.

No, the West started getting pictures from satellites. Started tapping in on phones with microwave antennas far above the Earth.

Started to find out that the Red Army was mostly a paper tiger.

In addition, Vietnam had really rattled a lot of American cages. It had become clear that draftees just… weren't good enough anymore.

Not the levels of patriotism or verve the vast majority of draftees brought to the Service, but the time needed to make a modern warrior.

A proper Infantryman now took nearly 18 months to train correctly. Tankers, aviators, sailors in Nuclear powered ships, they needed even longer to train.

And so the United States and much of NATO (not all), went to volunteer units, who stayed in at least 4 years instead of 2.

The Soviets didn't.

A strange thing happens with volunteer forces. By virtue of greater practice and training, not to mention lots of people wanting a second hitch, or even a career, you start developing a really professional fighting force that knows what it is about. They can handle weapons systems that drafted Soldiers simply cannot learn in time to be useful.

And so weapons develop in complexity and power.

This brings me back to the Abrams. Its turbine was adopted at a time when Abrams was a lot lighter, and was governed to 50mph, not that much faster than other NATO tanks of the day.

However, my father trained the 3rd Infantry Division's maintenance guys on their new Abrams back in the 80′s.

In a pinch, a real pinch, that governor came right off and the engine worked just fine without it, allowing the Abrams to sprint at far greater speeds and still hit T-72 size targets at 1,000 meters or more.

See, the German Bundeswehr had to, for obvious reasons, defend every inch of their soil.

Can't very well just allow the Soviets to march all the way to the Rhine and then start resisting. However, even the mighty US Army was not going to stop the whole Soviet Army right on the border, so the idea was this:

Set up in a line, foxholes, artillery aiming points, close air support to include A-10s, Apache helicopters, and F-16s, and wait.

The Soviets would attack in Echelon, one regiment following the next. Remember, simpler tactics because their guys have not practiced as much.

The NATO, especially American and British, units, were to rip the faces off that first echelon, kill as many Soviets as possible, and then disappear.

Pull back a kilometer or two, and get set in the same sort of positions. Do this again and again and again until the spearpoint of the Soviet Army, equipped by 1985 with T-62, T-72, and T-80 tanks, was destroyed.

The Soviets would increasingly place their Category B divisions (broadly equivalent to US Army Reserve formations) in the field with older equipment.

And NATO would push into the attack.

The Abrams-equipped US Army would race forward, supported by British, French, and West German troops, would begin a blitzkrieg style assault across Germany, aiming generally at Moscow.

Here, again, the turbine engine if the Abrams would shine once more, outpacing anything the enemy could throw up, annihilating support and maintenance battalions, and making further resistance by Soviet front line troops untenable.

Eventually, the Soviet Army or the Soviet leadership would collapse. Most leading thinkers on the subject figure the Soviet Union would release Nuclear weapons against a single target, probably in England, and then the United States would respond from Minuteman silos in the Continental United States to make the point- yes, MAD is still in effect.

At which point, the current Soviet leadership would likely be overthrown and executed, and the matter settled at the conference table.

All of this to say that the US picked a turbine engine because blitzkrieg remains the best way to defeat Russia, and the United States does blitzkrieg better than anyone else.
Weeee! Lovely scenario. Just remember, "No plan survives contact with the enemy."
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,188
14,092
136
The most illustrative picture of what's likely going to happen when 3rd gen western MBTs and our IFVs hit Ukrainian soil is probably Iraq. Ukraine will have better recon at its disposal and the tanks, equipped with 120mm guns and modern optics, will probably engage T series tanks before the Russians know they are there. Same with the Bradley's TOWs and Milan on the Marder. BMPs will stand no chance whatsoever. Inside about 3km the 40mm gun on the CV90 will smoke anything less than a T-80.

A whole lot of things who's sole reason to exist is to blow up Soviet armor en masse are about to appear in Ukraine and there is no reason to think it's going to turn out well for the Russians.

Yes but how long will it take to train them in how to use them?
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
23,437
10,330
136
Yeah, that a great one. US Army to congress - and it can run on any grade of petrol, diesel, aviation fuel or kerosene.

US Army to Ukraine - it needs special jet fuel.
That's what I thought. Missed the explanation about nozzles. I still don't understand the maintenance issues though. Do aircraft mechanics have the same problem?
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,046
33,093
136
Yes but how long will it take to train them in how to use them?

I'd think you can teach experienced crews to use them in 4 or so weeks. Even the Leopard 2 is not particularly complex to operate.

Abrams would take longer but since deliveries are not likely until the middle of this year less of an issue.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,188
14,092
136
I'd think you can teach experienced crews to use them in 4 or so weeks. Even the Leopard 2 is not particularly complex to operate.

Abrams would take longer but since deliveries are not likely until the middle of this year less of an issue.

If they can't use them until the summer, may be a bit late if Russia is planning a massive spring offensive as has been reported.
 

biostud

Lifer
Feb 27, 2003
18,251
4,764
136
I don't find it unlikely that some Ukraine soldiers have received MBT training before the tanks were officially sanctioned.
 
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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,188
14,092
136
CNN analysis says that Biden's move to provide Abrams is an important development for internal NATO relations, and is improving them immensely to where they may end up better than they were before Trump.


So Russia's invasion has accelerated the development of renewable energy in Europe and elsewhere by probably a decade or more, and has brought NATO closer together. In the long run we end up with an impoverished Russia and a stronger NATO. I think in soccer they call those own goals.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
23,437
10,330
136
If they can't use them until the summer, may be a bit late if Russia is planning a massive spring offensive as has been reported.
Just saw something about what they will deliver. There will be no new secret armor on this batch from GD.
 

Meghan54

Lifer
Oct 18, 2009
11,528
5,045
136
Have no idea how seriously to take that analysis. But it reminds me of reading "The Third World War" back in the 1980s (confession: I didn't buy it, I sneakily read it while lurking in the bookshop!). I now gather that book had a slightly propagandist function. Maybe it was part of the very debate you allude to here?


What was linked was generally the way it played out in our (the US) training…an example was REFORGER, Return of Forces to Germany. Was an annual exercise whereby units from the US rapid deployed to Germany to reinforce/replace the cannon fodder that were/are the forces already on the ground in Germany.

When the Russians came down the Fulda Gap, propositioned forces were there to slow the invasion long enough to allow reinforcements(replacements) to get in theater from US stateside posts.

So the mobile forces were the first in line, like 101st and 82nd. Both airborne units and are equipped with lighter, easier to move quickly equipment.

And they go get chewed up and try to blunt Russian advance while the heavy stuff gets mobilized.

I got to “participate” in a REFORGER, 1976. I was with the 20 yh Combat Engineer Ann, attached to the 101st Airborne. Was such fun. Spent a month in the rear of an open jeep, running around parts of the Black Forest and elsewhere. Froze my natural ass off…it was late Sept-October and we froze.

Then again, if I hadn’t gone, I’d have missed a lot. Won’t ever forget but don’t want to do it ever again.

Just rambling aimlessly now. I should learn not to post sometimes. 🤪
 

Indus

Diamond Member
May 11, 2002
9,946
6,533
136
Weeee! Lovely scenario. Just remember, "No plan survives contact with the enemy."

Well yeah but my thinking is, we're dreaming if these tanks aret going to make Russia give up and withdraw.

They have 1 strategy, throw people at the problem and make them eat bullets. So this war will go on for years if not decades.

Eventually the Russkies will recruit 20 million old timers to eat bullets, but why use a bullet when the tank tracks do the same thing.

Just run em over with the tank and save bullets.
 

gorobei

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2007
3,669
997
136
The whole bluster about the Abrams just makes it sound like a terrible vehicle, the engineers incompetent, and the army are fools for commissioning it.

The centerpiece of the armored land forces is a glorified base queen that constantly breaks, is picky on fuel and ammo, and is difficult to repair?
Does General Dynamics print that in the brochure?

I'm sure half is true, and half is BS, but WTF.
images
the sweeds were the first to use a gas turbine on the s-tank, the soviet t-80 was the 2nd, the abrams was 3rd.

part of the logic was that the soviet zerg rush over the fulda gap was naturally going to extend far past the supply lines. they would raid civilian diesel supplies as they went forward. the t-80 with its turbine could probably hit airports and use aviation fuel, the t-72 would hit gas-stations.

in the european theatre(high population/infrastructure density) this is viable strategy, so the US had no reason not to do the same. given that the nato combined forces would be running tanks/heli/jets, having your tanks be able to use the same fuel as aircraft doesnt hurt in theory.

from what i have gathered from the chieftan and other wartech-tubers, the abrams is great on fuel economy when you are running full speed but suffers when idling where the diesel engine shines. that's why the abrams got the apu mod in the bustle for idling.

the big issue is that the maintainers cant actually do full strips and rebuilds of the engine. they can pull and swap the power pack in short order like a formula1 pit crew, but they cant to much more than minor repairs. the civilian technical contractors are the ones who do the repairs. it's the same for western military jets.


when is was young i bought in to the US hype that the abrams was the best in the west mbt.
later on i got more info on the leopard2/leclerc/japanese types and started thinking the abrams was overrated. then the WorldofTanks mythology debunking videos came out and you started hearing the real dirt on each nations tanks from historians and actual users. now you have the tank museums putting out their own vids and col. moran going to the army archives to verify, and i have come back around to thinking the abrams is kinda better than the rest at actually doing what is says it can do.


one or two wartech-tubers have implied that part of the delay with getting the abrams to ukraine is that they need to strip out some of the 'still-classifed' bits for the firing control system so they can be exported. it is not supposed to affect the performance of the tank as the ukranians will be using it.
 
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feralkid

Lifer
Jan 28, 2002
16,481
4,552
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What was linked was generally the way it played out in our (the US) training…an example was REFORGER, Return of Forces to Germany. Was an annual exercise whereby units from the US rapid deployed to Germany to reinforce/replace the cannon fodder that were/are the forces already on the ground in Germany.

When the Russians came down the Fulda Gap, propositioned forces were there to slow the invasion long enough to allow reinforcements(replacements) to get in theater from US stateside posts.

So the mobile forces were the first in line, like 101st and 82nd. Both airborne units and are equipped with lighter, easier to move quickly equipment.

And they go get chewed up and try to blunt Russian advance while the heavy stuff gets mobilized.

I got to “participate” in a REFORGER, 1976. I was with the 20 yh Combat Engineer Ann, attached to the 101st Airborne. Was such fun. Spent a month in the rear of an open jeep, running around parts of the Black Forest and elsewhere. Froze my natural ass off…it was late Sept-October and we froze.

Then again, if I hadn’t gone, I’d have missed a lot. Won’t ever forget but don’t want to do it ever again.

Just rambling aimlessly now. I should learn not to post sometimes. 🤪


Keep rambling; that's the best way to pass along actual real history.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,050
7,978
136
Bit puzzled by this. Don't know why anyone thought it was a good idea to even ask Zelensky about the British PMship. I mean, doesn't seem as if anything good can come of answering such a question, from Ukraine's point-of-view, whichever way it goes (though his answer seems to be more non-commital and diplomatic than the headline implies).
He has to keep on good terms with the current incumbent, and at the same time it wouldn't be good to upset the blond egotist (even if BJ isn't perhaps _quite_ as much of a petulant manchild as the orange narcissist).

Funny though that Johnson apparently _still_ hasn't given up hopes of a 'triumphant' return to power.

 

dainthomas

Lifer
Dec 7, 2004
14,592
3,425
136
Or start one. ;)

But, yeah, we are unparalled in the world for our long range lift and supply capability. Neither the Russians nor the Chinese nor GB or France or anyone else can do what we can do. Remember GB having to use a civilian liner to get their troops to the Falklands?

Well, I guess that's our compensation for no free healthcare.