Russia on brink of ... NOPE! Russia INVADES Ukraine!

[K1052]

Some rumblings about Leopard 1s starting to surface. Euro nations rumored to be talking to Rheinmetall and a Belgian arms dealer. Same arms dealer had M109s that the UK purchased, reconditioned, and shipped to Ukraine.

 

[NTMBK]

Some rumblings about Leopard 1s starting to surface. Euro nations rumored to be talking to Rheinmetall and a Belgian arms dealer. Same arms dealer had M109s that the UK purchased, reconditioned, and shipped to Ukraine.

I mean sure, if Ukraine wants them then go for it... but that has got to be scraping the barrel. Can't we find tanks that are less than 50 years old to send?

EDIT: Hell, give the Leopard 1s to our army, and let Ukraine have every Challenger 2.

 

[K1052]

I mean sure, if Ukraine wants them then go for it... but that has got to be scraping the barrel. Can't we find tanks that are less than 50 years old to send?

One of the reasons Ukraine is low on 125mm tank ammo is that they're using them a lot for indirect fire. The Russians are doing this too. A modestly refreshed Leopard 1 with new radios, whatever ERA is laying around, and a thermal scope would be fine for this role and as a self propelled assault gun. No I wouldn't want to run up on like the better T-72s or T-80s in one but I doubt they'd use them like that.

 

[K1052]

EDIT: Hell, give the Leopard 1s to our army, and let Ukraine have every Challenger 2.

If I was the UK I'd probably abandon the Challenger 3 project, ship the Challenger 2s to Ukraine, lease M1s from the US, and buy either the K2 or Abrams X.

The wailing from the certain circles would be epically loud but would eventually subside.

 

[brycejones]

If I was the UK I'd probably abandon the Challenger 3 project, ship the Challenger 2s to Ukraine, lease M1s from the US, and buy either the K2 or Abrams X.

The wailing from the certain circles would be epically loud but would eventually subside.

The cost of building a few hundred at most bespoke MBTs is just nuts. If the UK can't get the export deals to build more then yeah I would agree time to move to another platform.

 

[K1052]

Germany: Jets are too much. Out of the question.

France: Would you like our Mirage?
Netherlands: Would you like our F-16s?
Slovakia: Would you like our Mig-29s?
UK (probably soon): Would you like our Eurofighters?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1619070480224522240

 

[NTMBK]

The cost of building a few hundred at most bespoke MBTs is just nuts. If the UK can't get the export deals to build more then yeah I would agree time to move to another platform.

NATO needs to get better at standardising on a design and then manufacturing locally. There's no reason why France, Germany, and the UK should be producing incompatible designs, and it just complicates things. Cooperate on a design, share the IP, and build up the capacity to produce it locally in multiple countries.

 

[brycejones]

NATO needs to get better at standardising on a design and then manufacturing locally. There's no reason why France, Germany, and the UK should be producing incompatible designs, and it just complicates things. Cooperate on a design, share the IP, and build up the capacity to produce it locally in multiple countries.

Dozens of programs have attempted to do that and typically fall apart over countries running out of money or not being satisfied with how the work is going to be split up so they go their own way.

 

[K1052]

France, Italy, and Germany are going together on a next generation tank but it's not going to be ready until the middle of the next decade at the earliest. Given the age of the European tank fleet a lot of countries can't wait that long for new armor.

 

[NTMBK]

Dozens of programs have attempted to do that and typically fall apart over countries running out of money or not being satisfied with how the work is going to be split up so they go their own way.

It worked for Tornado and Typhoon. Current events are a good example of why they should try harder. Warsaw Pact equipment is so ubiquitous and interoperable that both Ukraine and Russia are widely using it- meanwhile, NATO are providing 12 of this type, 30 of that type, etc.

 

[K1052]

Germans are looking for large stocks of 105mm ammunition. Brazil has declined to export.

Greece, Turkey, and South Korea likely have large stockpiles. Some smaller ones scattered about Europe possible too.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1619111382070493185

 

[RnR_au]

2023... the year of The Crunch(tm)

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1619074527912202240

 

[JEDI]

Ukraine will soon have 4 additional types of MBTs in addition to whatever Soviet mbt they are currently using:
14 Challenger2 (uk)
Lots of leopards (germany, poland, etc)
31 abrams (usa)
Leclerc (France)

i can see supply chain issues:
all the different types of ammo, spare parts, fuel, etc

 

[rommelrommel]

Ukraine will soon have 4 additional types of MBTs in addition to whatever Soviet mbt they are currently using:
14 Challenger2 (uk)
Lots of leopards (germany, poland, etc)
31 abrams (usa)
Leclerc (France)

i can see supply chain issues:
all the different types of ammo, spare parts, fuel, etc

You know what’s worse than supply chain issues with your new tanks limiting their utility a bit? No tanks at all.

 

[Jaskalas]

You know what’s worse than supply chain issues with your new tanks limiting their utility a bit? No tanks at all.

Simply give the different types to different commands in different regions. Don't try to mix and match, and the logistics will at least not be tangled.

 

[Brovane]

Ukraine will soon have 4 additional types of MBTs in addition to whatever Soviet mbt they are currently using:
14 Challenger2 (uk)
Lots of leopards (germany, poland, etc)
31 abrams (usa)
Leclerc (France)

i can see supply chain issues:
all the different types of ammo, spare parts, fuel, etc

LeClerc, Leopard 2 and Abrams all use the same main gun ammo 120mm. Challenger 2 has a rifled 120mm gun which uses different ammo.
All these tanks are NATO tanks so there is some commonality between them. However yeah there will be some logistical challenges with multiple types of MBT's in the same units.
Realistically it would probably be better for Ukraine to just use the Leopard. Or for the US to supply enough Abrams to fill out one armored brigade about 90-100 tanks. Then the 2nd brigade just have Leopard 2's. Usually armored divisions will have 3 brigades. So one brigade Abrams, One brigade Leopards and then the 3rd brigade have T-series tanks. This would give Ukraine a fairly effective armored fist to liberate their country from the occupiers.

 

[K1052]

Kinda hoping the French don’t send the Leclerc and just pay for overhauls of all the Spanish 2A4s or something instead. Some of them need a lot of work to be usable.

 

[Brovane]

Kinda hoping the French don’t send the Leclerc and just pay for overhauls of all the Spanish 2A4s or something instead. Some of them need a lot of work to be usable.

I think the Leopard and the Abrams are the only tanks that can be sent in actual usable quantities to make it worth Ukraine's while to setup a logistical tail for them. In a perfect world it would just be the Leopard but that would require a lot more Leopards than are actually available and the US has a lot of Abrams in storage.

 

[gorobei]

Ward Carroll interviewed Justin Bronk of RUSI on the tanks.
the leopard is apparently better for UKR because Germany has more ancillary vehicles available for recovery/tranport/bridge/ford/etc of the leopards to send. the UKR train system will need to be adapted to handle the heavier nato tanks. the availability of 2A4-2A6 spare parts is better as they are still running the production lines to support their export customers.

he warns that 2 months ago was the time to send the tanks so the crews could train on them ahead of the spring offensive. also you have to assume that the rus mobilization and wartime production ramp will eventually yield results so if UKR doesnt make the major breakthru by 4th quarter of 2023, rus positions will have time to harden the defenses and it will be far harder to retake territory.

 

[K1052]

I think the Leopard and the Abrams are the only tanks that can be sent in actual usable quantities to make it worth Ukraine's while to setup a logistical tail for them. In a perfect world it would just be the Leopard but that would require a lot more Leopards than are actually available and the US has a lot of Abrams in storage.

The limited number of available 3rd gen tanks might be part of the reason they still want to get ahold of Leopard 1s. There are easily hundreds to be had. Ukraine’s T series fleets have surely taken a beating over the last year and face availability issues. This would be a reasonable stopgap.

 

[rommelrommel]

Leopard 1 aren’t bad against a lightly armed poorly motivated conscript army with not much to call on but massed artillery fires.

 

[K1052]

Ukrainian ask on jets is pretty reasonable. 24 units plus a few spares. Ideal solution would probably be the Dutch F-16s which are almost all retired for F-35s.

Evident they want to get and train up on something that's still in production and will be for a while.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1619329397638729728

 

[Grabo]

Since everyone including our neighbours want the F35 we should send a couple of Gripens southeast. They're pretty good at taking off and landing at improvised runways (bits of road) as I understand it (less distance needed) which may come in handy. I don't think this will ever materialize though, maybe a couple of tanks if our neighbours are sending tanks too.

 

[K1052]

Since everyone including our neighbours want the F35 we should send a couple of Gripens southeast. They're pretty good at taking off and landing at improvised runways (bits of road) as I understand it (less distance needed) which may come in handy. I don't think this will ever materialize though, maybe a couple of tanks if our neighbours are sending tanks too.

Sweden is sending 50 CV90s which are excellent IFVs and about 20 Archer 155mm which is probably the best SPG on the planet. I have no doubt Ukraine appreciates these generous contributions.

 

[Grabo]

Sweden is sending 50 CV90s which are excellent IFVs and about 20 Archer 155mm which is probably the best SPG on the planet. I have no doubt Ukraine appreciates these generous contributions.

Yes. Quite a lot of heavy caliber entities coming into UA now from many countries, I hope the invading forces feel their contribution this spring and summer.