Russia on brink of ... NOPE! Russia INVADES Ukraine!

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zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
109,251
26,825
146
what a fucking crybaby bitch, lol. There was probably a time, about 4 or 5 months ago, when Elon may have happily "given away" Starlink for Ukraine's war efforts without question, but it seems to me that the turd river he stepped into with the completely self-imposed disastrous deal he made to pick up Twitter has inspired to find all sorts of ways to soak taxpayer cash (US subsidies for his "generous donation to UKR") to offset and negate his billions dollars loss.


which gets me to thinking....

US cost to UKR war effort to date: $17 billion
Elon Musk purchase of Twitter: $44 billion

You know, he could have made a much better life decision if he honestly wants people to like him. (hint--he doesn't. Elon doesn't care what other humans think)

(I know that's an absurd comparison, there; but in general just consider the cost of actual real issues in the world: Malaria, clean water access, food and shelter, invading orc armies, etc, and compare that to the money that billionaire assholes, pretty much gifted the vast majority of their wealth through government programs and paid-for infrastructure, spend on self-serving vanity projects that contributes absolutely nothing to the rest of the world; and certainly doesn't restore any amount of the cost and resources that they have grifted from humanity to pay for the "shamecost" of tiny penis syndrome.) This is a very real thing and for anyone that is perplexed as to why most people have no real love for mass wealth accumulation, then you aren't paying attention.
 
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kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
23,589
25,302
136
These are conducted in a way so as to obviously not be threatening, Putin can't credibly claim it's an incoming attack.
It's been planned for awhile on both sides, trying to use it to substantiate an attack on Russia would indeed probably be a hard sell.

Something else though, an "accident" that causes the loss of NATO (or Russian) lives or assets as some kind of FU for all the weapons support, or to justify some other course of action. That's a different animal.
 
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kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
23,589
25,302
136
Whatever Elon, I figure it's the least you can do given your roll over for Putin. Not like you can't afford it. I think you saw even your supporters recoil from your call with Putin, the sudden penny pinching with Ukraine. What happened to wanting to stay out of politics? Bet you wished you adhered to that fresh Texan transplant disclaimer now huh?

I was wanting the Biden admin to negotiate a fair contract for Ukraine's Starlink service, but if Musk wants to foot the bill himself, great. He wouldn't be where he is with Tesla if it weren't for taxpayer dollars. Using a mere fraction of his wealth to help out Uncle Sam upholding freedom and democracy is not an uncomfortable notion to me.

Now, about that world hunger issue...
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
109,251
26,825
146
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Leeea

Platinum Member
Apr 3, 2020
2,738
4,124
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this is likely going to be the most pointless argument of this thread

I don’t care if you don’t have time to research basic facts of the solar industry in the USA. I lived it, and the narrative I presented is very easy to find online.
I believe you when you say you live in America. Your here representing Chinese interests.


For example, the Obama / Biden tariffs were found to be illegal by WTO:

https://www.energymatters.com.au/renewable-news/em4396/
Whats your point?

That the Obama administrations attempt to save US solar cell manufacturing with tariffs was a failure?

So you simultaneously claim:
"Obama destroyed US solar with tariffs"
"Obama failed to save US solar with tariffs because it lost at the WTO"

Your claims are contradictory. Pick one.


The same tariffs Obama did are suddenly legal and totally wonderful when Trump does them.

The real reason you liked Trump was his administration allowed China to build up a network of front companies to sell Chinese solar cells and components through. A criminal backdoor around the tariffs.

"Top climate officials in the Biden administration are warning that a federal investigation into alleged dodging of tariffs by Chinese suppliers has put the domestic solar industry in peril just as the United States is trying to ramp up clean-energy production. " - WP article above
The Biden administration shows up, is not incompetent, and immediately tries to do something about China's criminal smuggling of solar cells.

But according to you, this enforcement of the law is preventing the importation of solar panels and it is all Biden's fault. Hearing it from you, it has nothing to do with China's criminality.


Yes, it is all Obama's and Biden's fault, and had nothing to do with the illegal tariffs China imposed on the US poly-silicon. We know they were illegal Chinese tariffs according to your own link* about the WTO ruling against China in 2021.
*https://ustr.gov/about-us/policy-offices/press-office/press-releases/2021/september/wto-panel-rejects-chinas-solar-safeguard-challenge

Specific discussion of the effect on the polysilicon industry:

https://www.greentechmedia.com/amp/article/polysilicon-once-booming-remains-a-forgotten-casualty-of-the-201-tariffs
Final rules on pause in tariffs just passed - note, this action is in the courts as well and still is a huge risk.
A hit piece by a shell company of a shell company. Very nice.

Chinese propaganda.

You mix your lies in with the truth, you are good at the big lie.


So your point here is Biden finally admitted defeat and temporarily paused on cracking down on China's criminal network?

That Chinese manufacturers built by government subsidizes destroyed US solar manufacturing and there is no going back?

That the Chinese criminal network built to evade the tariffs ended up being to much for the Biden administration to overcome?


These were trivial to find and fully support my position.
They don't support your position though.

What they do show is a bipartisan attempt to save the US solar manufacturing over the course of three administrations that failed. Mainly do to rampant Chinese criminality and a complete disregard for the law by Chinese interests.


The IRA gets a B+ for me. For the most part it just extends the existing investment tax credits. Well done political work to get it passed. It does 2 things for usa manufacturing - provides long term stability to the USA industry and incentives for USA production. Took too long to pass and is crippled by other actions like the above, but overall ok.
You like it because it increased demand for panels. Including panels made in China.

But you dislike because it does nothing about the "other actions above", also known as the criminal investigation into Chinese smuggling. Because that means that US manufacturers might find non-Chinese sources for their components.


When you say "US industry" what you are actually saying is "US imports of Chinese solar components and cells".

That is the truth here. You keep associating "US industry" with Chinese imports, and that is the consistent lie you propagate through your posts.

Your not pro-America, your pro-sell Chinese solar cells.

I fully support the Biden administration’s support for Ukraine other than wishing they provided support faster and with more of the weapons requested, but they have been very steady in their aid. I don’t think they thought through air defenses fully, but the systems needed are in much shorter supply.
The only thing you support is a quick end to the war, and you do not care how it happens.

That is the other consistent truth to your postings.

Early on you just want us to have Ukraine admit defeat. All your doom and gloom postings were associated with the idea that Ukraine was going to lose and it was inevitable. We should just give up and end it quick. To spare Ukrainians the suffering.

But now that is not going to happen you switched to a quick Ukrainian victory. You just want an end to the world wide disruptions in demand this war is causing. So the western nations can relax and go back to buying Chinese products and ignoring Chinese criminality.


I guess that is a good thing, that you want peace.
 
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feralkid

Lifer
Jan 28, 2002
16,014
3,861
136
Would be nice is UKR climes his corpse, sends it to that person offering the bounty, and they actually honor it.

Maybe then purchase a few drones with the bounty money and keep taking out infrastructure within Russia with the drones.

Ahhh...this Flesh for Cash malarkey could work to our advantage.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
12,738
7,872
136
Poor baby. I'd really like to know the marginal cost of Starlink in Ukraine. I have a feeling the $80M number includes a ton of fixed cost burden on it.

I have no problem with SpaceX being paid for their service. But the negotiations need to be behind closed doors, going through the proper processes, not on fucking Tweeter. You don't see the CEO of Raytheon talking about expedite fees on Facebook.
 

Drach

Senior member
Apr 24, 2022
271
460
96
Couldn't happen to more upstanding individuals.
 

Michael

Elite member
Nov 19, 1999
5,435
234
106
this is likely going to be the most pointless argument of this thread


I believe you when you say you live in America. Your here representing Chinese interests.



Whats your point?

That the Obama administrations attempt to save US solar cell manufacturing with tariffs was a failure?

So you simultaneously claim:
"Obama destroyed US solar with tariffs"
"Obama failed to save US solar with tariffs because it lost at the WTO"

Your claims are contradictory. Pick one.



The same tariffs Obama did are suddenly legal and totally wonderful when Trump does them.

The real reason you liked Trump was his administration allowed China to build up a network of front companies to sell Chinese panels through. A criminal backdoor around the tariffs.


"Top climate officials in the Biden administration are warning that a federal investigation into alleged dodging of tariffs by Chinese suppliers has put the domestic solar industry in peril just as the United States is trying to ramp up clean-energy production. " - WP article above
The Biden administration shows up, is not incompetent, and immediately tries to do something about China's criminal smuggling of solar cells.

But according to you, this enforcement of the law is preventing the importation of solar panels and it is all Biden's fault. Hearing it from you, it has nothing to do with China's criminality.



Yes, it is all Obama's and Biden's fault, and had nothing to do with the illegal tariffs China imposed on the US poly-silicon. We know they were illegal Chinese tariffs according to your own link* about the WTO ruling against China in 2021.
*https://ustr.gov/about-us/policy-offices/press-office/press-releases/2021/september/wto-panel-rejects-chinas-solar-safeguard-challenge


A hit piece by a shell company of a shell company. Very nice.

Chinese propaganda.

You mix your lies in with the truth, you are good at the big lie.



So your point here is Biden finally admitted defeat and temporarily paused on cracking down on China's criminal network?

That Chinese manufacturers built by government subsidizes destroyed US solar manufacturing and there is no going back?

That the Chinese criminal network built to evade the tariffs ended up being to much for the Biden administration to overcome?



They don't support your position though.

What they do show is a bipartisan attempt to save the US solar manufacturing over the course of three administrations that failed. Mainly do to rampant Chinese criminality and a complete disregard for the law by Chinese interests.



You like it because it increased demand for panels. Including panels made in China.

But you dislike because it does nothing about the "other actions above", also known as the criminal investigation into Chinese smuggling. Because that means that US manufacturers might find non-Chinese sources for their components.


When you say "US industry" what you are actually saying is "US imports of Chinese solar cells".

That is the truth here. You keep associating "US industry" with Chinese imports, and that is the consistent lie you propagate through your posts.

Your not pro-America, your pro-sell Chinese solar cells. By any means necessary.


The only thing you support is a quick end to the war, and you do not care how it happens.

That is the other consistent truth to your postings.

Early on you just want us to have Ukraine admit defeat. All your doom and gloom postings were associated with the idea that Ukraine was going to lose and it was inevitable. We should just give up and end it quick. To spare Ukrainians the suffering.

But now that is not going to happen you switched to a quick Ukrainian victory. You just want an end to the world wide disruptions in demand this war is causing. So the western nations can relax and go back to buying Chinese products and ignoring Chinese criminality.


I guess that is a good thing, that you want peace.
I don’t want to clutter up this thread any further on this argument. I have the experience and knowledge to know that my opinion is backed by what actually happened.

If you want to argue this specifically, feel free to start another thread on solar policy in the USA. I spent and continue to spend decades of my work experience in this industry and lived through the entire history and results I posted. In that thread I will be happy to go back into time and pull out the history of the whole process. Polysilicon takes technical knowledge, cheap and reliable electricity and capital investment. All of which the USA is excellent at. It even helped that most ships are pretty empty returning to China from the USA so bill shipping that way was cheap.

The sole reason I brought it up was to point out that you cannot assume a political side means X when it could very well be Y. Enough in this thread.
 

Drach

Senior member
Apr 24, 2022
271
460
96
I don’t want to clutter up this thread any further on this argument. I have the experience and knowledge to know that my opinion is backed by what actually happened.

If you want to argue this specifically, feel free to start another thread on solar policy in the USA. I spent and continue to spend decades of my work experience in this industry and lived through the entire history and results I posted. In that thread I will be happy to go back into time and pull out the history of the whole process. Polysilicon takes technical knowledge, cheap and reliable electricity and capital investment. All of which the USA is excellent at. It even helped that most ships are pretty empty returning to China from the USA so bill shipping that way was cheap.

The sole reason I brought it up was to point out that you cannot assume a political side means X when it could very well be Y. Enough in this thread.
Please don't. Your comments are a distraction from the thread. TY
 
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Michael

Elite member
Nov 19, 1999
5,435
234
106
The only thing you support is a quick end to the war, and you do not care how it happens.

That is the other consistent truth to your postings.

Early on you just want us to have Ukraine admit defeat. All your doom and gloom postings were associated with the idea that Ukraine was going to lose and it was inevitable. We should just give up and end it quick. To spare Ukrainians the suffering.

But now that is not going to happen you switched to a quick Ukrainian victory. You just want an end to the world wide disruptions in demand this war is causing. So the western nations can relax and go back to buying Chinese products and ignoring Chinese criminality.


I guess that is a good thing, that you want peace.
The bottom part is dumb. One of the fastest ways the war could end it that Ukraine surrenders.

I want Russia defeated, and them to surrender. If Ukraine decides to negotiate, I want it from the maximum position of strength that they can. I want Ukraine to defeat Russia quickly with the least amount of loss of life and thus more weapons and resources to them faster.

The defeat should be in a way that does not pull NATO into direct conflict with Russia to avoid the large risk of it escalating into a nuclear exchange but that threat by Russia is not a reason to not help Ukraine.

Unfortunately, despite the terrible showing of Russia so far, it is a much larger country than Ukraine and is able to fight without exposing much of their country to counter attack. So I want a quicker end with less damage to Ukraine but the actual path to that is hard to see. That is my doom and gloom.
 

Michael

Elite member
Nov 19, 1999
5,435
234
106
Eat a dick asshole!
I was discussing the argument and I want peace as fast as possible and obviously I do not want that as I do not want Ukraine to surrender.

Maybe English is not your first language?
 

Drach

Senior member
Apr 24, 2022
271
460
96
I was discussing the argument and I want peace as fast as possible and obviously I do not want that as I do not want Ukraine to surrender.

Maybe English is not your first language?
1st absolutely. Yours is obviously not.
 

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