Remember that shutdown Trump WILL have?

[zzyzxroad]

Many in the right didn’t support it either. I’m not going to argue for he FCC and the push against net neutrality, it’s a travesty and something that should be pushed much, much more than it is. Literally government against the people. I would hazard to guess the people very much in favor of the wall outnumber the people very much against it. Most of the population doesn’t give a frick about it. Certainly not worthy of a government shutdown. But here we are.

How many of those who are very much for it were duped by propaganda? Just because you believe in something strongly doesn't make you right. By your own admission the fence is a waste. These people don't need a wall they need facts. Unfortunately the piper they follow is incapable of giving that to them.

 

[Jhhnn]

People don’t vote, that doesn’t mean they don’t hold political opinions. If you think that 28% of electorate are the only ones supporting the ideas you’re misguided. I have no idea if half the country is for it or not, but it’s certainly more than pool of people who actually casts a vote. In any case, still a large segment. Hell 28% of eligible voters is a large segment.

I didn't say that. You put it in terms of a near majority actually being in support when that hasn't been shown to be true at all. Support for the Wall was only one of a myriad of misbegotten "reasons" people voted for Trump. It's not so much that they were "for" anything beyond screaming Fuck You! at the rest of America & the world.

The wall is just another way of saying the same thing.

 

[UglyCasanova]

How many of those who are very much for it were duped by propaganda? Just because you believe in something strongly doesn't make you right. By your own admission the fence is a waste. These people don't need wall they need facts. Unfortunately the piper they follow is incapable of giving that to them.

I agree. Where you’re going to disagree with me is that he Dems are susceptible to propoghanda as well. They think they’re right in everything the same as the right does. Right now the right seems to be drinking more of the punch.

 

[zzyzxroad]

I didn't say that. You put it in terms of a near majority actually being in support when that hasn't been shown to be true at all. Support for the Wall was only one of a myriad of misbegotten "reasons" people voted for Trump. It's not so much that they were "for" anything beyond screaming Fuck You! at the rest of America & the world.

The wall is just another way of saying the same thing.

Here is a recent poll that back you up.

https://poll.qu.edu/national/release-detail?ReleaseID=2590

I just checked my calendar and it isn't 2016 any more.

 

[zzyzxroad]

I agree. Where you’re going to disagree with me is that he Dems are susceptible to propoghanda as well. They think they’re right in everything the same as the right does. Right now the right seems to be drinking more of the punch.

So what is your point on the current topic again? And no I know the Dems have plenty of propaganda in their past but nothing can touch trump level BS.

 

[UglyCasanova]

American voters oppose building a wall on the Mexican border 54 - 43 percent and say 54 - 44 percent the wall is not necessary to improve border security, according to a Quinnipiac University National Poll released today.

Sure as hell sounds like a large segment to me.

 

[zzyzxroad]

Sure as hell sounds like a large segment to me.

I'll go back to the point that many of those people have been duped by a con man.

 

[dawp]

trump has 2 weeks to get the funding through before dems take over the house and it's forever out of his reach. and it doesn't look like that will happen.

 

[UglyCasanova]

Maybe so, they still want that wall. The desire to enforce our border and stop illegal immigration existed long before Trump. Provide a compromise, is a Nancy proposing real measures with teeth that will cut down on illegal immigration? Putting people out of business who hire them for instance. Nah. It’s just no wall, sanctuary cities, and the like.

 

[zzyzxroad]

Maybe so, they still want that wall. The desire to enforce our border and stop illegal immigration existed long before Trump. Provide a compromise, is a Nancy proposing real measures with teeth that will cut down on illegal immigration? Putting people out of business who hire them for instance. Nah. It’s just no wall, sanctuary cities, and the like.

Did you catch the 54% oppose part? Seems like a clear mandate that a wall should not be built.

 

[Commodus]

No, probably not. But at least then the adems would become the party of compromise. Right now both sides (oh no!) are dug into ideology because it fuels their base.

And what principal are you standing for? That it’s a waste of money?

Parties aren't supposed to compromise for compromise's sake. You do it when you can see the other party is acting in good faith and is proposing things that are vaguely reasonable.

The problem is that Trump and the Republicans routinely act in bad faith, and the wall is a completely, objectively unreasonable idea. Why would you give an inch to people who you know will take a mile, especially for an idea so crude and barbaric?

This reminds me of the insistence that the news should always represent "both sides" -- that is, the false notion that it's always just a matter of perspective and that both sides are making a reasonable case. Sorry, but while some things are relative, you have to accept that there are times when one side is clearly right and the other is clearly wrong.

And what are the Democrats standing for? Simply speaking, everything good in the world. The wall is inhumane, an attempt to physically close off a country that would hurt asylum seekers, tarnish the US' reputation and create serious ecological damage. It would be ineffective. It would be a waste of money. And given that Trump is likely to lose office in 2020, there's literally no point to funding the wall since all construction would halt the moment Trump is out of office.

 

[UglyCasanova]

I never said the majority didn’t oppose it. A large segment which you proved does want it.

 

[Indus]

trump has 2 weeks to get the funding through before dems take over the house and it's forever out of his reach. and it doesn't look like that will happen.

Do bills expire at the end of the year or the senate can pass an identical version next year that the gop passed this year?

That was one part of congress I've never understood?

 

[UglyCasanova]

Parties aren't supposed to compromise for compromise's sake.

...
The wall is inhumane, an attempt to physically close off a country that would hurt asylum seekers, tarnish the US' reputation and create serious ecological damage.

Ah the truth, finally someone says it. And yes I do believe parties should compromise. Digging into ideology is a disaster for this country.

 

[zzyzxroad]

I never said the majority didn’t oppose it. A large segment which you proved does want it.

So more people oppose than want so we should build it? That's some weird logic. Factor education in and the opposition number goes even higher. People also seem to be very concerned with climate change. Has trump and company shown any compramise on that front?

 

[Moonbeam]

Maybe so, they still want that wall. The desire to enforce our border and stop illegal immigration existed long before Trump. Provide a compromise, is a Nancy proposing real measures with teeth that will cut down on illegal immigration? Putting people out of business who hire them for instance. Nah. It’s just no wall, sanctuary cities, and the like.

You could always look at it like this:
Republicans will never do anything real about illegal immigration, Their concern is simply to use the fear of the other, the monsters penetrating our borders to win elections. The Democrats will never do anything real about illegal immigration because it will offend a big part of their voter base. The just seem not to oppose it so they don't offend part of their base. That leaves you heaving your guts out and flailing about, concerned about something that will never happen, because you have big bright black and white piano keys that allow you to be played like a fiddle. You have become addicted to adrenaline rush via constant amygdala stimulation. Welcome to the machine. Relax and be happy. Maybe take a vacation and visit this place:

https://www.history.com/topics/ancient-rome/hadrians-wall

When I went there all I could hear were the voices of Roman Soldier ghosts saying, "What the Fuck were we thinking!"

 

[UglyCasanova]

Republicans will never do anything real about illegal immigration,

Agreed

 

[dawp]

Do bills expire at the end of the year or the senate can pass an identical version next year that the gop passed this year?

That was one part of congress I've never understood?

I think they do once the new congress is sworn in

 

[Jhhnn]

I'll go back to the point that many of those people have been duped by a con man.

UC is trying desperately to skirt his way around that. Conservatives have been ruthlessly duped by GOP propaganda & disinformation since Gingrich, at least. They seem to want the Jerb Creators to come back when they were the ones who voted to let them get away with little recompense or sense of civic responsibility at all. The GOP has been robbing middle America blind since 1980 because freedom & shit. Because God, guns, gays, icky illegals & all the rest of it. I mean, the only reason trickle down doesn't work is because lazy poors vote Democrat.

Why is there this malaise in rural & small town America? Job Creator activity! That's right. Y'all been dumped, Honey! The capitalists you voted for moved on to greener pastures & more profit. You? they DGAF about you. Suck it up & feel the Freedom, cuz that's all you'll get from them.

 

[UglyCasanova]

No im not? I don’t support the wall. I don’t support the trade war. Yep it’s propoganda and yep it’s useless, but the wall doesn’t harm anything either other than blowing money (shovel ready stimulus though amirite). Why dig your heels in here? My guess is because it’s a symbol of Trumps election so it must be opposed, not because it’s a waste of money (of which there’s lots in the government and no shutdowns over it).

 

[Moonbeam]

Agreed

Only Democrats can so vote them in. The liberal liberal mind has been scientifically proven to be better able to go with reason in the face of fear inducing situations than conservative brains are. The screws were already tightening significantly under Obama. American citizens of South of the Border origins don't want immigrants stealing their jobs any more that any other citizens do. Perhaps the way to welcome illegals more universally would be to tie welfare to working the jobs that people would rather be on welfare than doing.

 

[UglyCasanova]

Dems aren’t liberal (at least not anymore) and no they won’t do anything to enforce the border or stop illegal immigration either. The ruling class profits from it so it’s all just lip service.

 

[Jhhnn]

The Democrats will never do anything real about illegal immigration because it will offend a big part of their voter base.

That's not true. The influx of undocumented workers ended 10 years ago. Their numbers actually fell. There's still some back & forth even with the increased security Dems support. It will always be that way to some extent unless we want to do it like the former GDR.

We nonetheless have the legacy of the past to deal with. The Dreamers. 250K Salvadoran refugees here since 2001. Others who have lived & worked peaceably among us for many, many years & have American citizen children & even grandchildren.

They deserve our respect & compassion. We owe it to ourselves to provide it.

 

[UglyCasanova]

I’m for amnesty and citizenship for dreamers. Hell im for the same for all illegal immigrants here, maybe a caveat that you can’t be convicted of a crime. Grand bargain (which the right won’t take), amnesty and citizenship for border control with teeth and enforce it. That’s the only realistic way forward.

 

[Jhhnn]

I’m for amnesty and citizenship for dreamers. Hell im for the same for all illegal immigrants here, maybe a caveat that you can’t be convicted of a crime. Grand bargain (which the right won’t take), amnesty and citizenship for border control with teeth and enforce it. That’s the only realistic way forward.

What part of "illegal immigration was brought under control years ago" do you fail to understand?