Proof barry bonds used steroids,

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: BigJ
Him and all his kind need their stats wiped from the record books. Sosa, Bonds, McGwire, the whole lot.

curious if you are a yankees fan?

Matt Lawton last year hit a game winning HR in September for the yankees and he admited he was on steroids.

should that game have been forfeited by the yankees?

I absolutely despise the Yankees. You should know from previous threads that I'm a Braves fan

But I don't think the game should've been forfeited. I think he should've received a longer suspension as a result of his impact on the game.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Originally posted by: ntdz
What proof? These are writers for The San Francisco Chronicle. While I believe Bonds did use roids, there is no proof in this book. A postive result on a blood test = proof.

Not going to endorse ntdz but . . . this book has the credibility of WMD in Iraq . . . reasonable assumption but where's the beef?!

The details of the story also sux but I'm not sure if the SI writer is a moron or the sources are just ignorant.

1) I'm not sure there's such a thing as a 20 pills at a time anabolic/anti-catabolic regimen that's actually illegal. Further, almost all orals "cook" your liver. Any person with "expert" medical assistance probably wouldn't bother with orals . . . particularly if they had no problem with needles. Aside from the liver toxicity issue, why would Bonds bother with small dose Dbol or Winny tabs when he could just buy the good stuff in higher doses?

2) There's no such thing as taking a week or two off for heavy cycles. You need A LOT of time off from a heavy cycle. If you were going to break that short, might as well stay on all the time.

3) Anabolics/anti-catabolics don't give you energy . . . you get that some stimulants. Now androgenics certainly make you aggressive, though.

4) They call Winny (stanozolol) a powerful anabolic and say Bonds gained 15lbs of muscle in 100 days. Winny is used to get hard but it's a mild musclebuilder. Nobody on the planet has gained 15lbs on Winny . . . except maybe the Internet vendor that sells Winny. Now the notion of a torn triceps . . . sort of works . . . but not for the reason they mention. Winny isn't so good for the connective tissue.

5) Bonds hit 46 HR in 1993, 42HR in 1996, and 1997. His first year of doping(1998) when he blew up with 18lbs of muscle . . . 37HR? His peak year is 2001 . . . three years after allegedly starting his doping regime. Yet somehow his HR power diminishes to the mid40s for consecutive years despite AGGRESSIVE doping activity?! Bonds has fewer at-bats during those years but the decline in HR production is much larger than the decline in ABs.

6) Bonds starts deca-durabolin after the 1999 season. Deca-durabolin is a workhouse steroid. Everybody gains on Deca. But Deca . . . in fact . . . no steroid . . . improves muscle mass if you are just sitting around bangin' the mistress. Muscles grow in response to stress . . . no stress . . . no growth. Anabolics allow you to maximize gains. Anti-catabolics minimize losses. And both improve recovery. So the argument that Deca is a lazy guy's anabolic is just dumb.

7) Nobody gets huge on hGH (human growth hormone). But I have heard that it improves eyesight, skin texture, recovery, great for joints, etc. Granted at $1000 a month it better do something.

8) Allegedly, Bonds didn't get any testosterone until after the 2000 season. Now that's one of the most retarded approaches ever. ALL cycles should include Test. There's rarely a good reason to omit Test.

9) From the way the article is written, it gives the impression that clomid wasn't started until after the 2000 season. But that doesn't make sense. Bonds would need Clomid for most (if not all) of those early cycles if they were really as heavy as the authors imply. Technically, even mild-moderate cycles would suppress the HPG axis enough that you would need a kick start to get the twins in action.

10) Modafinil is NOT a powerful stimulant. It's a mild stimulant. It promotes wakefulness and arguably vigilance but its definitely NOT comparable to the various amphetamines (speed) that most major league players take.

11) One more thing about DECA. It's the LAST steroid one would use if they wanted to avoid detection. You will test positive for Deca a year and a half AFTER your last dose.

12) Roger Maris hit 39HR the year before he hit 61. He hit 33HR the year AFTER he hit 61. Aside from that 3 year stretch his best years were 23, 26, 28. Does Marist deserve an asterik?

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc

Originally posted by: ntdz
What proof? These are writers for The San Francisco Chronicle. While I believe Bonds did use roids, there is no proof in this book. A postive result on a blood test = proof.

Not going to endorse ntdz but . . . this book has the credibility of WMD in Iraq . . . reasonable assumption but where's the beef?!

The details of the story also sux but I'm not sure if the SI writer is a moron or the sources are just ignorant.

1) I'm not sure there's such a thing as a 20 pills at a time anabolic/anti-catabolic regimen that's actually illegal. Further, almost all orals "cook" your liver. Any person with "expert" medical assistance probably wouldn't bother with orals . . . particularly if they had no problem with needles. Aside from the liver toxicity issue, why would Bonds bother with small dose Dbol or Winny tabs when he could just buy the good stuff in higher doses?

2) There's no such thing as taking a week or two off for heavy cycles. You need A LOT of time off from a heavy cycle. If you were going to break that short, might as well stay on all the time.

3) Anabolics/anti-catabolics don't give you energy . . . you get that some stimulants. Now androgenics certainly make you aggressive, though.

4) They call Winny (stanozolol) a powerful anabolic and say Bonds gained 15lbs of muscle in 100 days. Winny is used to get hard but it's a mild musclebuilder. Nobody on the planet has gained 15lbs on Winny . . . except maybe the Internet vendor that sells Winny. Now the notion of a torn triceps . . . sort of works . . . but not for the reason they mention. Winny isn't so good for the connective tissue.

5) Bonds hit 46 HR in 1993, 42HR in 1996, and 1997. His first year of doping(1998) when he blew up with 18lbs of muscle . . . 37HR? His peak year is 2001 . . . three years after allegedly starting his doping regime. Yet somehow his HR power diminishes to the mid40s for consecutive years despite AGGRESSIVE doping activity?! Bonds has fewer at-bats during those years but the decline in HR production is much larger than the decline in ABs.

6) Bonds starts deca-durabolin after the 1999 season. Deca-durabolin is a workhouse steroid. Everybody gains on Deca. But Deca . . . in fact . . . no steroid . . . improves muscle mass if you are just sitting around bangin' the mistress. Muscles grow in response to stress . . . no stress . . . no growth. Anabolics allow you to maximize gains. Anti-catabolics minimize losses. And both improve recovery. So the argument that Deca is a lazy guy's anabolic is just dumb.

7) Nobody gets huge on hGH (human growth hormone). But I have heard that it improves eyesight, skin texture, recovery, great for joints, etc. Granted at $1000 a month it better do something.

8) Allegedly, Bonds didn't get any testosterone until after the 2000 season. Now that's one of the most retarded approaches ever. ALL cycles should include Test. There's rarely a good reason to omit Test.

9) From the way the article is written, it gives the impression that clomid wasn't started until after the 2000 season. But that doesn't make sense. Bonds would need Clomid for most (if not all) of those early cycles if they were really as heavy as the authors imply. Technically, even mild-moderate cycles would suppress the HPG axis enough that you would need a kick start to get the twins in action.

10) Modafinil is NOT a powerful stimulant. It's a mild stimulant. It promotes wakefulness and arguably vigilance but its definitely NOT comparable to the various amphetamines (speed) that most major league players take.

11) One more thing about DECA. It's the LAST steroid one would use if they wanted to avoid detection. You will test positive for Deca a year and a half AFTER your last dose.

12) Roger Maris hit 39HR the year before he hit 61. He hit 33HR the year AFTER he hit 61. Aside from that 3 year stretch his best years were 23, 26, 28. Does Marist deserve an asterik?

nice post.

first thing i thought when i saw the title "Proof barry bonds used steroids" was, the OP has NO CLUE what proof is.

 

[msparish]

Do I think Barry's used steroids? Absolutley. Do I think you can wipe his records? Absolutley not. I don't think steroids were even against the rules of baseball until a year or two ago. Since then, there is no proof.

Do I think that the state of the game (once my favorite sport by far) today is a disgrace? You bet. Granted, not just because of the steroid issue, but it still looms large.

 

[shortspanishguy]

Originally posted by: Accipiter22

Originally posted by: shortspanishguy
If we got rid of all the players that juice you can say goodbye to ALOT of players from the NFL and the MLB. I dont believe steroids have a place in sports but they are here to stay. There is too much $$ in it. It will never end.

and BTW... this writer has no idea about steroids.

3 week cycles do not exist, especially for baseball purposes.

sure they do....what makes you think they don't?? (I dunno for baseball purposed) but bonds didn't sound exactly worried about effectiveness...he sounded more like a glutton

First of all yeah 3 week cycles exist but they are ineffective.

The only roids that will have any effect in that time are short ester injectables and orals but noone will run an inject for just 3 weeks. It makes no sense. They are normally ran for 6 or 10-18 weeks. ie. Tren, Test Prop as short esters. And most orals are fast acting ie. anavar, winstrol, anadrol. But once again, it makes no sense to only run them for 3 weeks. My point is, you dont make big gains in 3 weeks. I know this post is a mess. I am tired.

edit... some roids may only be used for 3 weeks but that roid is only a part of the whole cycle.

example.

weeks 1-3 50mg of Dbol everyday

weeks 1-12 500mg of test enanthate Mon and thurs

weeks 6-12 50 mg of winny everyday

make sense?

 

[slimrhcp]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: slimrhcp

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Was wondering where all the SF fanboys were.

Anabolic steroids increase testosterone production by over 100% a normal man's rate. Hence, any offender could be eating KFC for a week and anabolically create muscle with little to no fat. How's that for drawing the line?

I'm by no means a SF fan, I'm a fan of knowing about something (ie steroids) before commenting. Please show me where you read the above quote. If you can not provide data then please don't portray media hype as fact.

"Although we observed a significant increase in the serum levels of testosterone in our study," said Dr. Doug King, a researcher at Iowa State University, "it is unlikely that this dose of androstenedione would enhance muscle size or strength. Most earlier research suggests that the serum testosterone must be increased by more than 100 percent in order to increase muscle strength."
Text

Actually, trenbalone increases testosterone levels much higher than andro... so it could realistically be much much higher than 100%. God knows what B.Bond's levels were at when he was juicing.

Did you know that testosterone levels can raise naturally?

"Testosterone levels increase in men during most forms of exercise. Weight lifting has been shown to increase a man?s testosterone level by as much as forty percent. Squats, bench presses and back rows increase testosterone more than biceps and triceps workouts. In men, it seems the more difficult the exercise, e.g. the heavier the weight, the greater the increase in testosterone."
Text

The point I'm trying to get across is that once we start deciding that records need to have notes stating that an accomplishment isn't what it appears to be, then we need to examine everything to ensure that there is truely a level playing field for everything. It wouldn't make sense to have an asterix next to everyone who broke Babe Ruth's record because Ruth didn't have access to the types of training or medical knowledge.

 

[maddogchen]

SF Giants fan here.
I don't care much. Records are already broken with suspect people like Big Mac. I don't really care about Bonds chasing Babe or Hank's record. All I care about is whether we're gonna kick some Dodger ass this year. And having Barry increases those chances!

Go Giants!

 

[Hummin]

Well, from what I've read and heard about the book, it's essentially a conglomeration of everything that's been put out before.....a bunch of circumstantial evidence but no proof. Proof, in this case, would probably have to be a positive drug screen from Bonds.

On another note, an interesting comment/point was made last night about the authors of the book and their writing. Seems both authors are reporters for the SF Chronicle, and both had initially attempted to get this compendium published as a series of articles in the newspaper they work for and had submitted this body of work for Pulitzer Prize consideration.

Neither happened......the SF Chronicle didn't publish any of it and the Pulitzer committee rejected it out-of-hand. The suggestion made last night was maybe the Pulitzer committee and the newspaper couldn't get the "proof" contained within the book to pass the stink test....or could vet any of the "proof" information contained in the book.

 

[Soapy Bones]

Doesnt anyone think this is just a bit suspicious that this come forth only weeks after espn was all on Barry for his cross dressing spring training episode? It seems as though everything was back to normal with him and that the media was finally letting everything rest and he would finally be back to playing a full season possibly, and now we get this.

I think there is something fishy about all of this.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: BigJ
Him and all his kind need their stats wiped from the record books. Sosa, Bonds, McGwire, the whole lot.

curious if you are a yankees fan?

Matt Lawton last year hit a game winning HR in September for the yankees and he admited he was on steroids.

should that game have been forfeited by the yankees?

Yes, that game was decided by a cheater so it should be asterisked. Just like: The year before the BoSox won the WS, Giambi was on roids when he hit 2 very short HR off Pedro Martinez which ultimately allowed for the Aaron Boone HR. The Red Sox clearly won in my book b/c they didn't have BALCO cheaters like Sheffield and Giambi on their roster. Anybody who had significant accomplishments, that have been since caught cheating via federal court or otherwise, should be asterisked. Any games that they affected should be asterisked as well, history buffs should not acknowledge the outcome of the game.

 

[Accipiter22]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc

Originally posted by: ntdz
/q]



where did you get ANY of that info in your post??

 

[Accipiter22]

Originally posted by: shortspanishguy

Originally posted by: Accipiter22

Originally posted by: shortspanishguy
If we got rid of all the players that juice you can say goodbye to ALOT of players from the NFL and the MLB. I dont believe steroids have a place in sports but they are here to stay. There is too much $$ in it. It will never end.

and BTW... this writer has no idea about steroids.

3 week cycles do not exist, especially for baseball purposes.

sure they do....what makes you think they don't?? (I dunno for baseball purposed) but bonds didn't sound exactly worried about effectiveness...he sounded more like a glutton

First of all yeah 3 week cycles exist but they are ineffective.

The only roids that will have any effect in that time are short ester injectables and orals but noone will run an inject for just 3 weeks. It makes no sense. They are normally ran for 6 or 10-18 weeks. ie. Tren, Test Prop as short esters. And most orals are fast acting ie. anavar, winstrol, anadrol. But once again, it makes no sense to only run them for 3 weeks. My point is, you dont make big gains in 3 weeks. I know this post is a mess. I am tired.

edit... some roids may only be used for 3 weeks but that roid is only a part of the whole cycle.

example.

weeks 1-3 50mg of Dbol everyday

weeks 1-12 500mg of test enanthate Mon and thurs

weeks 6-12 50 mg of winny everyday

make sense?

I have a friend who came in 2nd in junior nationals a year or two back that has done plenty of 3 and 4 week cycles.....granted they're not common, but it doesn't sound like Bonds researched this stuff...he just took what htey gave him. I don't think he would be educated enough to say 'now wait a second, I want a 6 week cycle, not a 3 week cycle because A B C, whatever'.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: Hummin
Well, from what I've read and heard about the book, it's essentially a conglomeration of everything that's been put out before.....a bunch of circumstantial evidence but no proof. Proof, in this case, would probably have to be a positive drug screen from Bonds.

On another note, an interesting comment/point was made last night about the authors of the book and their writing. Seems both authors are reporters for the SF Chronicle, and both had initially attempted to get this compendium published as a series of articles in the newspaper they work for and had submitted this body of work for Pulitzer Prize consideration.

Neither happened......the SF Chronicle didn't publish any of it and the Pulitzer committee rejected it out-of-hand. The suggestion made last night was maybe the Pulitzer committee and the newspaper couldn't get the "proof" contained within the book to pass the stink test....or could vet any of the "proof" information contained in the book.

There's enough proof that SI is putting it on their cover and risking getting sued. The authors said that recently unsealed documents from the Feds are included, as well as videotaped Bond's conversations. I see, you want Barry to pee in a cup for you (as proof) after he already admitted taking steroids and "anything else" his steroid dealer/trainer wanted him to take. Do you know how ridiculous that sounds?

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: Hummin
Well, from what I've read and heard about the book, it's essentially a conglomeration of everything that's been put out before.....a bunch of circumstantial evidence but no proof. Proof, in this case, would probably have to be a positive drug screen from Bonds.

On another note, an interesting comment/point was made last night about the authors of the book and their writing. Seems both authors are reporters for the SF Chronicle, and both had initially attempted to get this compendium published as a series of articles in the newspaper they work for and had submitted this body of work for Pulitzer Prize consideration.

Neither happened......the SF Chronicle didn't publish any of it and the Pulitzer committee rejected it out-of-hand. The suggestion made last night was maybe the Pulitzer committee and the newspaper couldn't get the "proof" contained within the book to pass the stink test....or could vet any of the "proof" information contained in the book.

There's enough proof that SI is putting it on their cover and risking getting sued. The authors said that recently unsealed documents from the Feds are included, as well as videotaped Bond's conversations. I see, you want Barry to pee in a cup for you (as proof) after he already admitted taking steroids and "anything else" his steroid dealer/trainer wanted him to take. Do you know how ridiculous that sounds?

what is SI going to get sued for? for putting the synopsis of a book in their magazine? you can't sue someone for printing a synopsis of something that is printed elsewhere. you sue the original authors.

 

[Reckoner]

Baseball's a complete joke now.


NFL > MLB

 

[shortspanishguy]

Originally posted by: PaulNEPats
Baseball's a complete joke now.


NFL > MLB

FTW!!

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: PaulNEPats
Baseball's a complete joke now.


NFL > MLB

Well at least according to you:roll:

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: PaulNEPats
Baseball's a complete joke now.


NFL > MLB

absolutely true. from the yankees, redsox and mets salaries combined probably being greater than the salaries of the whole bottom half of MLB. that is just plain ridiculous.

the yankees by themselves probably have a bigger payroll than the bottom 6 or 7 teams combined.

 

[alien42]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: PaulNEPats
Baseball's a complete joke now.


NFL > MLB

absolutely true. from the yankees, redsox and mets salaries combined probably being greater than the salaries of the whole bottom half of MLB. that is just plain ridiculous.

the yankees by themselves probably have a bigger payroll than the bottom 6 or 7 teams combined.

its actually the bottom 5 teams, but close

 

[giantpinkbunnyhead]

Bonds is the biggest a$$hole that ever walked the planet. I love any excuse I can get my hands on to justify and/or increase the level of hatred I have for the f^cker. I am thrilled to see this new story because it will hopefully cause more people to hate the prick and, maybe even drive the f^cker out of baseball. His arrogance, belligerence, and willingness to cry discrimination at every turn are enough to warrant his death as far as I am concerned. I only hope some deranged fan puts a bullet in his head before his eternally tainted HR record can overtake one from when baseball still had a shred of purity to it. Stupid prick.

 

[Polish3d]

Guys, you are trying to stop the tidal wave of science.

Sure, he shouldn't be using but what makes you think he isn't batting against pitchers who ALSO have an extra advantage of AAS? (steroids)

Anyway I just hope your hysteria about this this time stays away from the non-competitive weight trainers and other athletes who end up suffering from legislation designed to make you feel better about your baseball game.


:disgust:

 

[Linflas]

Originally posted by: giantpinkbunnyhead
Bonds is the biggest a$$hole that ever walked the planet. I love any excuse I can get my hands on to justify and/or increase the level of hatred I have for the f^cker. I am thrilled to see this new story because it will hopefully cause more people to hate the prick and, maybe even drive the f^cker out of baseball. His arrogance, belligerence, and willingness to cry discrimination at every turn are enough to warrant his death as far as I am concerned. I only hope some deranged fan puts a bullet in his head before his eternally tainted HR record can overtake one from when baseball still had a shred of purity to it. Stupid prick.

Wow....Just wow. :disgust::roll:

 

[Polish3d]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: slimrhcp

Originally posted by: PaulNEPats

Originally posted by: slimrhcp
For everyone saying that his records should be erased I have a question:

Should everyone in modern times have their records erased as well considering they had advantages that the likes of Hank Aaron didn't. There wasn't as much knowledge about supplements back then. Careers are also extended now because of non-invasive surgeries. Where is the line drawn?

Last I checked, improved surgical procedures of the years isn't against baseball rules. Steroids on the other hand, are.

If there was ever a case for an asterisk next to someone's stats, it would be warranted here.

What about creatine?
Glutamine?
Isolate Protein?
Contact lenses?

The point is where is the line drawn?

Was wondering where all the SF fanboys were.

Anabolic steroids increase testosterone production by over 100% a normal man's rate. Hence, any offender could be eating KFC for a week and anabolically create muscle with little to no fat. How's that for drawing the line?

Hahaha shut the fu.ck up. You don't know what you're talking about.

Steroids do not "increase testosterone production" and your notion that one can take steroids and eat KFC and become a better athletic performer is even more retarded.

Keep out of things you're uninformed on, you just end up screwing things up.

:thumbsdown:

 

[Polish3d]

Originally posted by: shortspanishguy
"testosterone decanoate (a fast-acting steroid known as Mexican beans)"

Interesting... A fast acting steroid (15 day half life), known as Mexican beans.


LOL do your homework buddy. I know bonds did roids but at least get your facts straight.

LOL ... decanoate anything one of the heaviest esters and slowest acting steroids. GEEZ.

 

[Polish3d]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: slimrhcp

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Was wondering where all the SF fanboys were.

Anabolic steroids increase testosterone production by over 100% a normal man's rate. Hence, any offender could be eating KFC for a week and anabolically create muscle with little to no fat. How's that for drawing the line?

I'm by no means a SF fan, I'm a fan of knowing about something (ie steroids) before commenting. Please show me where you read the above quote. If you can not provide data then please don't portray media hype as fact.

"Although we observed a significant increase in the serum levels of testosterone in our study," said Dr. Doug King, a researcher at Iowa State University, "it is unlikely that this dose of androstenedione would enhance muscle size or strength. Most earlier research suggests that the serum testosterone must be increased by more than 100 percent in order to increase muscle strength."
Text

Actually, trenbalone increases testosterone levels much higher than andro... so it could realistically be much much higher than 100%. God knows what B.Bond's levels were at when he was juicing.

You are behaving like a fool. It is spelled "trenbolone"

You are attempting to sound like you know what you're talking about but you just come off sounding like someone who says "Well Intel is faster because they run at 3.4ghz while AMD only runs at 2.8."

You have no depth of understanding of this.

Steroids do NOT INCREASE TESTOSTERONE PRODUCTION like you said.