Proof barry bonds used steroids,

Page 6 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,928
143
106
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Overall average from 1987 to 1998: a HR every 15.71 at bats. So at 34.5 years old (1999) to the present he has had a significantly better HR/AB ratio than the first 11 years of his career. Believable?

knowing how unathletic baseball players tend to be compared to NBA and football players, that could be believable. but it would require serious time in the gym. we all know the rocket does this, and look at what that guy can do. arguably he was better for the first 100 games of last season than he had ever been over any other comparably long period in his career.

of course, bonds has already admitted to using the cream and the clear. why people still deny that he used them i can't understand. bonds claims to have not known he was using steroids, that he thought he was merely using flaxseed oil for massages or something.
Yup, he has acknowledged using them. The stats definitely show that reflection too...

Rocket does have a sick workout regimen in the offseason... but he was one of the six people named by Canseco in his book. None of the six chose to sue for libel, strange?


 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,928
143
106
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Originally posted by: Hummin
Well, from what I've read and heard about the book, it's essentially a conglomeration of everything that's been put out before.....a bunch of circumstantial evidence but no proof. Proof, in this case, would probably have to be a positive drug screen from Bonds.

On another note, an interesting comment/point was made last night about the authors of the book and their writing. Seems both authors are reporters for the SF Chronicle, and both had initially attempted to get this compendium published as a series of articles in the newspaper they work for and had submitted this body of work for Pulitzer Prize consideration.

Neither happened......the SF Chronicle didn't publish any of it and the Pulitzer committee rejected it out-of-hand. The suggestion made last night was maybe the Pulitzer committee and the newspaper couldn't get the "proof" contained within the book to pass the stink test....or could vet any of the "proof" information contained in the book.
There's enough proof that SI is putting it on their cover and risking getting sued. The authors said that recently unsealed documents from the Feds are included, as well as videotaped Bond's conversations. I see, you want Barry to pee in a cup for you (as proof) after he already admitted taking steroids and "anything else" his steroid dealer/trainer wanted him to take. Do you know how ridiculous that sounds?

what is SI going to get sued for? for putting the synopsis of a book in their magazine? you can't sue someone for printing a synopsis of something that is printed elsewhere. you sue the original authors.
Plat, actually I found out some new info on this... Barry can sue the authors as well as the publishers. Publishers, including magazines that publish excerpts from the book, unless there is a protection provision. SI, in this case, has been guaranteed protection by the book publishers: If Bonds wished to sue Sports Illustrated for publishing an excerpt from "Game of Shadows," the magazine would not be legally exposed. SI spokesman Rick McCabe told ESPN.com that the book's publishers have guaranteed protection against a libel suit. McCabe noted that such an agreement is not unusual, as book-excerpt deals commonly carry such a provision.
Text

The publishers of this book must be pretty confident about its sources to guarantee SI a legal umbrella. Keith Olberman said that if Barry doesn't sue, then he's acknowledging that the book is true, b/c he stands to lose many merchandising deals once this book hits. (see above link) Will be interesting to see how Bonds responds after the book is out.

 

JASANITY

Senior member
Dec 10, 2000
504
0
0
don't hate. he made baseball exciting. w/o players on steroids, after the strike years, baseball would have been finished. steroids could have actually come as a decree from the top...
 

Accipiter22

Banned
Feb 11, 2005
7,942
2
0
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Originally posted by: Frackal
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Originally posted by: slimrhcp
Originally posted by: PaulNEPats
Originally posted by: slimrhcp
For everyone saying that his records should be erased I have a question:

Should everyone in modern times have their records erased as well considering they had advantages that the likes of Hank Aaron didn't. There wasn't as much knowledge about supplements back then. Careers are also extended now because of non-invasive surgeries. Where is the line drawn?

Last I checked, improved surgical procedures of the years isn't against baseball rules. Steroids on the other hand, are.

If there was ever a case for an asterisk next to someone's stats, it would be warranted here.

What about creatine?
Glutamine?
Isolate Protein?
Contact lenses?

The point is where is the line drawn?
Was wondering where all the SF fanboys were.

Anabolic steroids increase testosterone production by over 100% a normal man's rate. Hence, any offender could be eating KFC for a week and anabolically create muscle with little to no fat. How's that for drawing the line?



Hahaha shut the fu.ck up. You don't know what you're talking about.

Steroids do not "increase testosterone production" and your notion that one can take steroids and eat KFC and become a better athletic performer is even more retarded.

Keep out of things you're uninformed on, you just end up screwing things up.

:thumbsdown:
If someone was on a heavy cycle and only ate Fried chicken (and obviously did their normal workouts), they would undoubtedly get big. I'm a powerlifter and I know a juicer (injects Winstrol and God knows what else he is stacking) at the gym who did this. After lifting, he eats KFC or Popeyes FRIED chicken breasts. The guy is a freaking tank, and shredded. He does absolutely no cardio but his lifts are incredible. Steroids undoubtedly increase testosterone levels and production in the body, are you fcking stupid? Andro alone increases testosterone in the body by 30-40% (read the above link to the study), and that's not even including your normal increased production from working out. Stop posting.



well plenty of steroids basically allow your body to convert fat to muscle, on a very very simplified level. You can take in a high fat diet and still be shredded.

Another note, barry bonds didn't technically cheat if he did steroids...he just took advantage of everyone else looking the other way. There were no anti-steroids rules in baseball when he was doing them..
 

Accipiter22

Banned
Feb 11, 2005
7,942
2
0
Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
My friend at the gym is only 19 and Winny is used for cutting so I can't see why that's hard to believe (teenage metabolism + winny). He turned fried chicken (not every meal though, he said he also ate regularly ate tuna for lunch) that he would eat at least 5 nights a week into solid gains (I drive home with him in separate cars and saw him stop at the Popeyes on the way). He originally started as a skinny shrimp who could rep on 135 (plate on each side) to 275, and his weight went from 170 to 210 over the span of 6 months. He would openly tell us he was juicing, and that Stanz was one of his drugs of choice but wouldn't elaborate any more than that.

So here's the kicker:
1) teenagers (or even guys in their 20s) shouldn't use gear . . .
2) most steroid users are probably guys in their late20s - early40s

Winny just does NOT make people big. Your buddy was stacking his winny with some testosterone. If his cycle was all oral it was probably winny and dbol (which is NOT testosterone) . . . breakfast of wimps that can't take a 21g in the buttocks.

Again, the Bonds story just doesn't sound right. If I were advising him, he would have started with a nice cycle of 10-12wks of Equipoise and Sustanon . . . even a bonehead like bonds couldn't mess that up. Kill the booby potential with Arimidex and hop the twins up with Clomid. Nice solid muscle gains (but not too much that it draws attention) . . . good for the joints too. Only probelm is that EQ is gonna flame up a urine sample for over a year. Then again, baseball's testing regime wasn't exactly IOC.

But as an old guy, I could see Bonds' rationale for being juiced all year. They play 162 games a year! Even for a lazy sport like baseball that's still a lot.


lol I'd never do a cycle...but if I did i'd definetly have you design it for me
 

Accipiter22

Banned
Feb 11, 2005
7,942
2
0
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Overall average from 1987 to 1998: a HR every 15.71 at bats. So at 34.5 years old (1999) to the present he has had a significantly better HR/AB ratio than the first 11 years of his career. Believable?

knowing how unathletic baseball players tend to be compared to NBA and football players, that could be believable. but it would require serious time in the gym. we all know the rocket does this, and look at what that guy can do. arguably he was better for the first 100 games of last season than he had ever been over any other comparably long period in his career.

of course, bonds has already admitted to using the cream and the clear. why people still deny that he used them i can't understand. bonds claims to have not known he was using steroids, that he thought he was merely using flaxseed oil for massages or something.
Yup, he has acknowledged using them. The stats definitely show that reflection too...

Rocket does have a sick workout regimen in the offseason... but he was one of the six people named by Canseco in his book. None of the six chose to sue for libel, strange?


Here's what I find odd...in boston he was a fat out of shape pig...he leaves and suddenly rejuvenates, has this killer workout regimen...still does....even at his age....how does his recovery time stay that quick?? hmmmmmm
 

Accipiter22

Banned
Feb 11, 2005
7,942
2
0
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Originally posted by: Hummin
Well, from what I've read and heard about the book, it's essentially a conglomeration of everything that's been put out before.....a bunch of circumstantial evidence but no proof. Proof, in this case, would probably have to be a positive drug screen from Bonds.

On another note, an interesting comment/point was made last night about the authors of the book and their writing. Seems both authors are reporters for the SF Chronicle, and both had initially attempted to get this compendium published as a series of articles in the newspaper they work for and had submitted this body of work for Pulitzer Prize consideration.

Neither happened......the SF Chronicle didn't publish any of it and the Pulitzer committee rejected it out-of-hand. The suggestion made last night was maybe the Pulitzer committee and the newspaper couldn't get the "proof" contained within the book to pass the stink test....or could vet any of the "proof" information contained in the book.
There's enough proof that SI is putting it on their cover and risking getting sued. The authors said that recently unsealed documents from the Feds are included, as well as videotaped Bond's conversations. I see, you want Barry to pee in a cup for you (as proof) after he already admitted taking steroids and "anything else" his steroid dealer/trainer wanted him to take. Do you know how ridiculous that sounds?

what is SI going to get sued for? for putting the synopsis of a book in their magazine? you can't sue someone for printing a synopsis of something that is printed elsewhere. you sue the original authors.
Plat, actually I found out some new info on this... Barry can sue the authors as well as the publishers. Publishers, including magazines that publish excerpts from the book, unless there is a protection provision. SI, in this case, has been guaranteed protection by the book publishers: If Bonds wished to sue Sports Illustrated for publishing an excerpt from "Game of Shadows," the magazine would not be legally exposed. SI spokesman Rick McCabe told ESPN.com that the book's publishers have guaranteed protection against a libel suit. McCabe noted that such an agreement is not unusual, as book-excerpt deals commonly carry such a provision.
Text

The publishers of this book must be pretty confident about its sources to guarantee SI a legal umbrella. Keith Olberman said that if Barry doesn't sue, then he's acknowledging that the book is true, b/c he stands to lose many merchandising deals once this book hits. (see above link) Will be interesting to see how Bonds responds after the book is out.



I don't think anyone here knows what libel is...i talked about it earlier in this thread. In order for Barry Bonds to be able to sue for libel he would have to be able to prove that A) He never used steroids. B) THe authors knew this and decided to publish it anyway. Do you have any idea how hard it is to get a libel suit in the U.S.? Read the book "Make No Law", it's a great resource on the topic. It's almost impossible to prove that you have or have not done something without a shadow of a doubt
 
Mar 9, 2005
2,809
1
0
Originally posted by: Accipiter22
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Originally posted by: Frackal
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Originally posted by: slimrhcp
Originally posted by: PaulNEPats
Originally posted by: slimrhcp
For everyone saying that his records should be erased I have a question:

Should everyone in modern times have their records erased as well considering they had advantages that the likes of Hank Aaron didn't. There wasn't as much knowledge about supplements back then. Careers are also extended now because of non-invasive surgeries. Where is the line drawn?

Last I checked, improved surgical procedures of the years isn't against baseball rules. Steroids on the other hand, are.

If there was ever a case for an asterisk next to someone's stats, it would be warranted here.

What about creatine?
Glutamine?
Isolate Protein?
Contact lenses?

The point is where is the line drawn?
Was wondering where all the SF fanboys were.

Anabolic steroids increase testosterone production by over 100% a normal man's rate. Hence, any offender could be eating KFC for a week and anabolically create muscle with little to no fat. How's that for drawing the line?



Hahaha shut the fu.ck up. You don't know what you're talking about.

Steroids do not "increase testosterone production" and your notion that one can take steroids and eat KFC and become a better athletic performer is even more retarded.

Keep out of things you're uninformed on, you just end up screwing things up.

:thumbsdown:
If someone was on a heavy cycle and only ate Fried chicken (and obviously did their normal workouts), they would undoubtedly get big. I'm a powerlifter and I know a juicer (injects Winstrol and God knows what else he is stacking) at the gym who did this. After lifting, he eats KFC or Popeyes FRIED chicken breasts. The guy is a freaking tank, and shredded. He does absolutely no cardio but his lifts are incredible. Steroids undoubtedly increase testosterone levels and production in the body, are you fcking stupid? Andro alone increases testosterone in the body by 30-40% (read the above link to the study), and that's not even including your normal increased production from working out. Stop posting.



well plenty of steroids basically allow your body to convert fat to muscle, on a very very simplified level. You can take in a high fat diet and still be shredded.

This is a misconception. Steroids are not a miracle. Power lifters that use AAS and eat alot are still fat. Now unless you just mean shredded as big then it makes more sense. But I think of shredded as very low BF and lots of mass. Now when they start adding clen, t3 or DNP that changes things.

Just in case you dont trust me, go to elitefitness or outlawmuscle and see what response you get to that statement.
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
SP33Demon your analysis doesn't make sense.

1) There's no regimen (even for orals) that an experienced AAS advisor would give a newbie that required 20 pills a day. There's certainly the possibility of low dose Winny and Dbol but Greg Anderson (that's the ONLY Anderson I've been talking about) wouldn't have bothered with that crap considering his connections.

What's far MORE likely is that Anderson supplied Bonds with a variety of supplements and the authors are merely conflating.

Your notion that he started orals and then progressed to injectibles is reasonable but has no basis in the SI account.

The authors write that Anderson started Bonds on Winstrol, also known as stanozolol, the longtime favorite steroid of bodybuilders, disgraced sprinter Ben Johnson and baseball player Rafael Palmeiro. In 100 days, Bonds packed on 15 pounds of muscle, and at age 35 hit home runs at the best rate of his career, once every 10.4 at bats. But he also grew too big, too fast. He tore his triceps tendon, telling Bell that the steroids "makes me grow faster, but if you're not careful, you can blow it out."

The book said Anderson and Bonds subsequently tweaked the program, adding such drugs as the steroid Deca-Durabolin and growth hormone, which allowed Bonds to retain his energy and physique without rigorous training. Not only did the growth hormone keep him fresh, but after complaining in 1999 about difficulty tracking pitches, he noticed it improved his eyesight as well.
Allegedly, this account is based in part on actual records of Bonds regimen. Basic reading comp . . . started with Winny (probably inaccurate) . . . added Deca and hGH. Even low doses of Deca suppress HPG axis.

These guys are full of it . . . you allegedly found this in the article
Through 1998, for instance, when he turned 34, Bonds averaged one home run every 16.1 at bats. Since then -- what the authors identify as the start of his doping regimen -- Bonds has hit home runs nearly twice as frequently (one every 8.5 at bats).
That's a retarded relationship . . . his average over his career compared to his average over his best stretch?

In 100 days, Bonds packed on 15 pounds of muscle, and at age 35 hit home runs at the best rate of his career, once every 10.4 at bats.
I guess they can't read since Bonds averaged a HR every 10.5 AB in 1994, while batting 50pts higher and with a higher slugging%. It's an odd use of stats by the authors. These guys are either morons or liars . . . maybe both.

Further, a lot goes into baseball stats year over year, so multiple factors will affect HR numbers . . . opposing pitchers, batting order, playing conditions, game tactics, etc.

Your analysis of how hGH works is a good try for an amateur. There's no good science that hGH prevents joint injuries. The human studies of hGH are in fact NEGATIVE as a true anabolic agent either alone or in conjunction with anabolics. So the notion that it supports "freakish" mass is gym conjecture.

Again Bonds #s in 1999 could be a reflection all kinds of factors.

It's nice to tell me you don't know much about modafinil. It's not used for mood disorders, in fact its contraindicated (shouldn't be used). The approval for ADHD occurred last year. Your supposition for why Bonds would use it doesn't make sense considering Bonds was a ridiculous hitter BEFORE the late 90s. But if you follow his career stats he appears to hit better over each 3 year-overlapping epoch. Looks more like maturity than anything else.

Again, your AB/HR analysis is sophomoric. A lot goes into hitting a ball and hitting home runs. Bonds played on different teams, with different teammates, and faced different pitchers. Bonds had various injuries during his career.

By actual plate appearances (how many times he stepped in the box) . . . Bonds hit a HR every 12.7 PA in 1994. Guess how many times he had to go to the plate for a HR in 2004? 13.7

In fact, in his doping PRIME (2000) he only hit a HR every 12.3 PA. Two years later (2002) he was still off his 1994 pace . . . 13.3 PA/HR.

Even using your stats there's no smoking syringe. Bonds had 200 fewer AB in 1999 compared to 1998 but only hit 10% fewer HR. Proof of doping . . . nope! Bonds hit half as many doubles in 1999 and his batting average dropped by 40pts (.303 to .262). Looks like he was swinging for the fences . . . and missing. Granted, I guess the skeptic would say he wasn't on the hGH so his eyesight wasn't so keen.:roll:

 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
Actually, Bonds could win a libel suit if the authors published anything they knew to be demonstrably false but he doesn't have to prove he never used steroids.

For instance, Paris Hilton is a tawdry slut but you cannot knowingly publish a false account of her behavior. If it's merely a detail or two that's off . . . you get a pass. But if whole accounts are false, you are in trouble if a "reasonable" person could have easily ascertained the veracity of the claims.

Wow, we're going hard core. Shortspanishguy is breaking out the T3, Clen, and notorious DNP . . . sweat much lately.;)
 

marincounty

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,227
5
76
Baseball had an image problem after the strike, and did everything they could to boost attendance. They made a push to get more scoring, juiced balls, lower mounds, etc.. They basically encouraged the players to get big and hit more homeruns. And now we are shocked to learn that some of the players used steroids, which, by the way, were not illegal for them to use.
Who is the cheater? Is it the batter using steroids, or is it the pitcher on speed or steroids throwing the ball.
I am much more concerned with the steroids in the beef I am eating, not what some entertainer on the field has used. Why is everyone concerned with what Barry Bonds has taken-but not what is in our food?
Also, I feel there is a certain racist aspect to this case, why is Barry the focal point? Most people suspect the steroid thing started with Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa, and Jose Canseco, so why pick on Barry?
All of these people piling on Barry, you know what it is? It's jealousy.
Barry Bonds is the greatest player of modern times, and it is a priviledge to watch him play. Go Giants.
 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,928
143
106
Hi Bali - thanks for the response.

1) You are referring to the part of the article that said: According to the book, Bonds gulped as many as 20 pills at a time and was so deeply reliant on his regimen that he ordered Anderson to start "cycles" -- a prescribed period of steroid use lasting about three weeks -- even when he was not due to begin one. Here, the authors could be referring to any pills, I don't think they were all in reference to illegal substances. They most likely used it for shock effect (like you said conflating). For example, a normal dose of glucosamine could be 3 pills, depending on the brand. Yup, it's possible that he could have reached 20 pills with orals but we really don't know the doses and how many different compounds that was. It could be anything ranging from legal to illegal, from Winny to aspirin to ephedrine to Dbol but the fact is that he was poppin 20 pills.

2) Yes, it says he started with Winny and then added "such drugs as" Deca, HGH, Clomid, and Modafinil for the 2000 season. My point is that the language is clearly citing examples, and not a thorough/complete description of what he took. Anderson isn't a fool, he would have probably given Bonds something to restore the HPG axis. But to make a conclusion off such language is presumptious IMO.

3) I don't think it's a bad analysis of stats to take Bond's first 12 years pre steroid (although I think his rookie season should be omitted) and then compare it to his next 6 when he has done steroids. I agree with what you said, that things like opposing pitchers, batting order, playing conditions, game tactics, etc. all affect statistics. So let's look at something a little more in depth, OPS+. This normalizes variables such as opposing pitchers, batting orders with other sluggers who had to face the same NL pitching and managers, and hitter's parks by comparing Barry with his peers.

For the 11 years before Bonds took steroids, his best two years, he posted a 205 and 206 in 1992 and 1993. Those 2 years were good enough to land him 39th and 40th on the all time Single Season Adjusted OPS+ list. However, from 1999 - 2004 (took out 2005 b/c he only had 14 AB) he averaged a 230 OPS+. Three of those years were the best OPS+ years ever posted by a baseball player. So basically, his best pre-drug offensive seasons were good enough for 39/40th all time; after drugs, he posted the greatest 3 offensive seasons in history. Note that OPS+ takes PA's into account and is widely regarded as one of the most definitive statistical measurements of offense (even though it could add it some other variables like weather conditions). One thing I might add is that OPS+ doesn't take into account the fact that after 2001, managers definitely gave Barry less pitches to hit when he wasn't walked. He simply posted the best OPS+ season ever (2002) and 3rd best (2004) after that. A further testament to the unfair advantage BALCO's drugs provided.

I wish they could somehow quantify Barry's "distance" of a HR and identify exactly how much further he could hit the ball with his extra 30lbs of muscle. For example, prior to 2000 (when his doping become more mature), what were his 20 longest HR's hit? After 2000, what were his 20 longest HR's hit? Take a average of the two, subtract them, and that could give you a very rough estimate of how much farther he could hit a ball after doping and obtaining his "new" body. Want to break it down even farther? Get a record of all of his HR's hit and the distance traveled, gather to where the wall was in relation (i.e. 350 ft wall to left field, 400 ft wall dead center, etc) to where the ball landed, and subtract his added distance number (from roids). That would be interesting to see how many homeruns would truly have been "homeruns" just by distance alone.

Of course we do also know that more strength equates to around a <.5 second difference in reaction time, but that can still be significant for someone who already has a good eye like Barry, so that plays into his "true" HR total as well. You could maybe penalize opposite field HR's because that may mean he was late on his swing, but overall it's too hard to quantify [unlike distance].

4) My HGH italisized excerpt, I pulled it right out of an article by SI, I didn't make that up. There are definitive studies on HGH, however not many. They prove that HGH does increase muscle mass and exercise capacity while decreasing adipose fatty tissue (although I couldn't find any studies on joints). For example: In 20 adults with growth hormone deficiency: exercise capacity increased in 11, was unchanged in 6, and declined in 3 after four months of treatment with growth hormone. Link1. Also: In highly conditioned exercising men and women 22 to 33 years of age, pharmacologic doses of growth hormone produced a 12% decrease in body fat and a 4% increase in fat-free weight. Link2. Keep in mind these studies were done in the late 80's as well.

5) You claim that Barry hit better over 3 year overlapping epochs which meant he got better and better, not sure how you are coming to this conclusion. Barry's best 2 offensive years were 1992 and 1993, with a 205 and 206 OPS+. He never even came close to those years, offensively speaking, until the year 2000. That was when he started his monster cocktail mix and posted a 191 and then proceeded to post the best three offensive years ever (whopping 262, 275, 260).

6) 1999, I agree, it's quite evident he was swinging for the fences and experimenting with a suitable drug stack that would work for him. He had a very subpar year OPS wise, but still posted an impressive AB/HR ratio.
 

Polish3d

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2005
5,500
0
0
By sp33ddemon:

well plenty of steroids basically allow your body to convert fat to muscle, on a very very simplified level. You can take in a high fat diet and still be shredded.


Again, unfortunately you are showing you have little understanding of the effects of AAS in the body.


Fat CAN NOT BE CONVERTED TO MUSCLE and vice versa.


One can gain fat, lose fat, and one can gain muscle, and lose muscle, but fat cannot convert to muscle or vice versa.

And it would be the rare person who, simply because of steroids, (and not genetic or other factors) can eat junk and become shredded, whereas w/o steroids they would not be able to achieve that.

Again, this is fundamentally false information you are putting out.

It is really obnoxious to see people just (seemingly) make stuff up about what is a well-understood biological process.
 

essasin

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2004
2,777
0
0
I do not know too much about steroids but Barry is a Hall of Fame player even without the steroids.

But I disagree about measuring the distance of his HRs. Sure there will be times when he just completly knocks it out of the stadium, but Jose Canseco said it best in his book that Steriods made homeruns out of what would have noramlly been pop flys. Right field is very short in SF and for the most part he did not obliterate the baseballs like McGwire and Sosa did.

Also there are other changing factors which would skew each homerun and would be impossible to figure in with the data. Wind, what type of pitch, and the speed of the pitch. I think you could possibly make an arguement about distance if you had him in a controled enviornment like an indoor homerun derby. Because almost everything besides Barry would be at a constant.
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
This is now the Barry Bonds statistical battle thread . . .

If you eyeball Barry's batting average, it increases in virtually every overlapping 3-year epoch (ie 88-90, 89-91, 90-92, etc). Point being this guy got better and better at hitting the ball . . . so the extent that his early 21st century stuff is ridiculous. In fact, if you could track how many times Barry swung . . . I bet his swing per hit would be outrageous. Accordingly, if you KNOW you are going to hit it . . . it's probably much easier to go yard.

As for the growth hormone stuff, you gave me one link to a study in GH deficient people. We have no idea what that means is relationship to typical people. 2nd that study was small.

The second link was for a study in 8 people . . . which is the same thing as no study at all . . . unless of course everybody died . . . that would useful information.

5) You cannot clearly state (and I agree) that its essentially impossible to know what Bonds was actually taking and then claim Barry's year 2000 results were a function of his monster cocktail mix. OPS is a bad stat b/c it makes no accounting whatsoever for the other factors responsible for Bonds getting on base. Who bats ahead, who bats behind, who are they playing, who pitched, how good is the fielding, etc, etc

6) Again its the plate appearance that gives the best gauge on Bonds ?power? than using AB. I'm not a bball nerd (I am a Giants fan . . . hard to tell, eh) so I won't crunch the numbers. But I would bet there's a collection of disparate stats that can be compiled for Barry Bonds from 1988-2004. It just depends on what your agenda entails.

If you want to stick a fork in him, you will find "stats" that back your claim. If you want to exonerate him (which is impossible at this point), you can easily find those stats as well.

IIRC, no one has contradicted the statement that Bonds has NEVER failed a substance test (which includeds steroids). Granted, I'm not sure how many tests he took before 2004.

Anderson hasn't been indicted for lying to a grand jury but told them in 2004 that he supplied steroids to Giants players but NOT Bonds! There may be a Bill Clinton element to that but I doubt that would get past prosecutors.

Montgomery's hearsay is the likely source of the Winny story. Monty is a sprinter so it wouldn't be surprising if HE used Winny . . . bad for those joints, though. Anyway, Monty testified that Conte gave Bonds Winny. Everybody denies this story Conte, Conte's lawyer, and Bonds. I call that a great big nothing.

The government memorandum about Conte's testimony names 5 baseball players but the lawyer present during testimony (Conte's) denies he admitted to providing steroids to those athletes specifically named . . . which included Bonds.

The SF Chronicle (same turds writing the book) use that memorandum to generate their list of baseball players.

Bonds didn't get any testing at BALCO until late in 2000 or some point in 2001 . . . allegedly as part of Conte's legal program. Even if it was early 2000 and it was associated with steroid use it's inconsistent with Bonds improved big hit stats b/c his surge had already started.
 

Polish3d

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2005
5,500
0
0
What about the possibility of the pitchers he was batting against being on performance enhancing drugs as well?
 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,928
143
106
Originally posted by: Frackal
By sp33ddemon:

well plenty of steroids basically allow your body to convert fat to muscle, on a very very simplified level. You can take in a high fat diet and still be shredded.


Again, unfortunately you are showing you have little understanding of the effects of AAS in the body.


Fat CAN NOT BE CONVERTED TO MUSCLE and vice versa.


One can gain fat, lose fat, and one can gain muscle, and lose muscle, but fat cannot convert to muscle or vice versa.

And it would be the rare person who, simply because of steroids, (and not genetic or other factors) can eat junk and become shredded, whereas w/o steroids they would not be able to achieve that.

Again, this is fundamentally false information you are putting out.

It is really obnoxious to see people just (seemingly) make stuff up about what is a well-understood biological process.
Actually, I never said your above quote, Accipter did, check yourself.

 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,928
143
106
Originally posted by: Frackal
What about the possibility of the pitchers he was batting against being on performance enhancing drugs as well?
If you followed statistics, you would know that Adjusted OPS+ is adjusted which means that it is weighted against an average of his peers' OPS. Meaning, the pitcher on roids had to pitch to all the other hitters as well, so Adjusted OPS+ accounts for this.
 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,928
143
106
Originally posted by: essasin
I do not know too much about steroids but Barry is a Hall of Fame player even without the steroids.

But I disagree about measuring the distance of his HRs. Sure there will be times when he just completly knocks it out of the stadium, but Jose Canseco said it best in his book that Steriods made homeruns out of what would have noramlly been pop flys. Right field is very short in SF and for the most part he did not obliterate the baseballs like McGwire and Sosa did.

Also there are other changing factors which would skew each homerun and would be impossible to figure in with the data. Wind, what type of pitch, and the speed of the pitch. I think you could possibly make an arguement about distance if you had him in a controled enviornment like an indoor homerun derby. Because almost everything besides Barry would be at a constant.
Those other variables are definitely valid. That's why I was saying to average his 20 farthest hit to account for that, but to get a true average you would really need more than 20. I was just bringing it as food for thought, maybe someone someday will actually calculate a true average with all of the variables mentioned. Wind speed, not sure where you would get that info. You could probably get the speed and type of pitch off a recording of the game, maybe narrow it down to only averaging HR's hit off of fastballs. I'd really be curious to see what how much (a rough avg) distance he added to his HRs from 2000 and on.

 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,928
143
106
Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
This is now the Barry Bonds statistical battle thread . . .

If you eyeball Barry's batting average, it increases in virtually every overlapping 3-year epoch (ie 88-90, 89-91, 90-92, etc). Point being this guy got better and better at hitting the ball . . . so the extent that his early 21st century stuff is ridiculous. In fact, if you could track how many times Barry swung . . . I bet his swing per hit would be outrageous. Accordingly, if you KNOW you are going to hit it . . . it's probably much easier to go yard.

As for the growth hormone stuff, you gave me one link to a study in GH deficient people. We have no idea what that means is relationship to typical people. 2nd that study was small.

The second link was for a study in 8 people . . . which is the same thing as no study at all . . . unless of course everybody died . . . that would useful information.

5) You cannot clearly state (and I agree) that its essentially impossible to know what Bonds was actually taking and then claim Barry's year 2000 results were a function of his monster cocktail mix. OPS is a bad stat b/c it makes no accounting whatsoever for the other factors responsible for Bonds getting on base. Who bats ahead, who bats behind, who are they playing, who pitched, how good is the fielding, etc, etc

6) Again its the plate appearance that gives the best gauge on Bonds ?power? than using AB. I'm not a bball nerd (I am a Giants fan . . . hard to tell, eh) so I won't crunch the numbers. But I would bet there's a collection of disparate stats that can be compiled for Barry Bonds from 1988-2004. It just depends on what your agenda entails.

If you want to stick a fork in him, you will find "stats" that back your claim. If you want to exonerate him (which is impossible at this point), you can easily find those stats as well.

IIRC, no one has contradicted the statement that Bonds has NEVER failed a substance test (which includeds steroids). Granted, I'm not sure how many tests he took before 2004.

Anderson hasn't been indicted for lying to a grand jury but told them in 2004 that he supplied steroids to Giants players but NOT Bonds! There may be a Bill Clinton element to that but I doubt that would get past prosecutors.

Montgomery's hearsay is the likely source of the Winny story. Monty is a sprinter so it wouldn't be surprising if HE used Winny . . . bad for those joints, though. Anyway, Monty testified that Conte gave Bonds Winny. Everybody denies this story Conte, Conte's lawyer, and Bonds. I call that a great big nothing.

The government memorandum about Conte's testimony names 5 baseball players but the lawyer present during testimony (Conte's) denies he admitted to providing steroids to those athletes specifically named . . . which included Bonds.

The SF Chronicle (same turds writing the book) use that memorandum to generate their list of baseball players.

Bonds didn't get any testing at BALCO until late in 2000 or some point in 2001 . . . allegedly as part of Conte's legal program. Even if it was early 2000 and it was associated with steroid use it's inconsistent with Bonds improved big hit stats b/c his surge had already started.
If you're a SFGiants fan, I can understand why you think that Bond's numbers were due to natural maturity and not believe the Chronicle reports that allegedly says Bonds admitted that he unknowingly used steroids. He hasn't commented ever on it, all we have is a report from sealed (and leaked) testimony.

I am saying that there is pretty solid correlation, number wise on the timeline, to the SI story. Statistically speaking, OPS+ takes average into account through SLG% (SLG merely takes AVG and shows how much of that AVG translated to power), so it's a pretty solid stat. Why look at only average and not OBP? Sac flies and walks show offensive prowess beyond average as well. You mentioned that OPS+ didn't account for other factors like defense, but OPS+ has in fact accounted for that in its formula, which is based on the Total Baseball PRO+ formula but improved (bolded the important part):

PRO+ = 100 * ( OBP/lgOBP + SLG/lgSLG - 1)/BPF
Where lgOBP and lgSLG are the slugging and on-base percentage of a league-average player, and BPF is the batting park factor. This takes into account the difference in runs scored in a team's home and road games, so it doesn't depend on how good an offense or defense a team has.

My method is slightly more complicated, but I think it is more correct. The BPF is set up for runs and the way it is implemented in PRO+ applies it to something other than runs.

My method
Compute the runs created for the league with pitchers removed (basic form) RC = (H + BB + HBP)*(TB)/(AB + BB + HBP + SF)
Adjust this by the park factor RC' = RC*BPF
Assume that if hits increase in a park, that BB, HBP, TB increase at the some proportion.
Assume that Outs = AB - H (more or less) do not change at all as outs are finite.
Compute the number of H, BB, HBP, TB needed to produce RC', involves the quadratic formula. The idea for this came from the Willie Davis player comment in the Bill James New Historical Baseball Abstract. I think some others, including Clay Davenport have done some similar things.
Using these adjusted values compute what the league average player would have hit lgOBP*, lgSLG* in a park.
Take OPS+ = 100 * (OBP/lgOBP* + SLG/lgSLG* - 1)
Note, in my database, I don't store lgSLG, but store lgTB and similarly for lgOBP and lg(Times on Base), this makes calculation of career OPS+ much easier.

Taken from Definition of Baseball Reference Terms.

As far as the growth hormone studies, I only linked two from the 80's, but rest assured that the study was from a reputable source (J of Applied Physiology). I'm sure there are more that prove the same stuff from the 90's, if I have time I'll see if I can find more.

I don't think I've skewed any stats, I took one of the most widely accepted offensive baseball stats and analyzed it as it has applied to Bonds. His 2000 season wasn't even as good as his stellar 1992/1993 seasons, but you could clearly note (through OPS+) that his performance was spiking upward on a rebound from a subpar 1998, an average 1999 with an injury, and a good/great 2000. 2001 and beyond, explosion into the record books at age 37, an age where he has gained 20-30lbs of muscle at an age where testosterone production declines in males.

Regarding testimony and proof, not going to speculate on that until sources for the book are published at the end of the month. I wouldn't be surprised if there were phone recordings as well as hard paper documents from BALCO as proof. The commissioner said he would read it and deal with the issue once the book came out, it's going to be interesting.
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
OK, you got me beat on the stats . . . nerd.;)

Testosterone actually wanes dramatically in your 20s . . . its the reason why young guys are stupid to do gear. Mother Nature already has them loaded.

Did Barry use "something?" Probably.

Is the SI account credible? Nope.

Barry Bonds was ridiculously good during the 90s. His subsequent production has been legendary. But steroids (nor hGH) do not produce GREAT baseball players.
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
Originally posted by: PaulNEPats
The only proof you need is Bonds's body transformation over the past 15 years.

That doesn't make any sense . . . most people look different after 15 years. Bonds steadly gained weight as a pro and it's certainly not uncommon for baseball players to bulk up in their 30s. Do you think Reggie Jackson was juiced? Have you ever seen a picture of his 1st year and last year?

most productive offensive players in 2000

By the numbers, Bonds has always been a stud. 2001 was ridiculous but so was Aaron with 43HRs at 40 and Maris' 61. Amazing things happen from time to time.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
126
so what exactly makes this proof??

Just becuase the allewgations were published in a book???

 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,928
143
106
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
so what exactly makes this proof??

Just becuase the allewgations were published in a book???
Depends on the sources and evidence cited. Won't know till the 23rd.

I was talking to my dad last night about this, and I'm thinking of doing the science experiment of trying to gauge how much power (translated through distance of HR) he gained from his p.enhancing mix. I'll probably create a new thread on it once I find out whether I can get information from Elias like exactly where the ball landed (left, center, right field?), and historical weather conditions for the stadium. My dad is a Physics guru so he volunteered for any wind adjustment calculations. He did voice one concern, and that was weight of the bat. I don't think this would be that big of a deal, because Barry's mass gained should translate into a heavier bat. Unless, he totally changed the mechanics of his swing to where the bat head was going through the zone faster at X point in his career. Or maybe he never switched to a heavier bat, using the same weight from his pre-drug years and his swing is now even faster? Those type of things would require research and may be impossible to ascertain.