Proof barry bonds used steroids,

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BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
so what exactly makes this proof??

Just becuase the allewgations were published in a book???
Depends on the sources and evidence cited. Won't know till the 23rd.

I was talking to my dad last night about this, and I'm thinking of doing the science experiment of trying to gauge how much power (translated through distance of HR) he gained from his p.enhancing mix. I'll probably create a new thread on it once I find out whether I can get information from Elias like exactly where the ball landed (left, center, right field?), and historical weather conditions for the stadium. My dad is a Physics guru so he volunteered for any wind adjustment calculations. He did voice one concern, and that was weight of the bat. I don't think this would be that big of a deal, because Barry's mass gained should translate into a heavier bat. Unless, he totally changed the mechanics of his swing to where the bat head was going through the zone faster at X point in his career. Or maybe he never switched to a heavier bat, using the same weight from his pre-drug years and his swing is now even faster? Those type of things would require research and may be impossible to ascertain.

I'm not sure what bat Bonds is using but his bat speed has always been a marvel.

Another factor that people ignored is that Bonds crowds the plate and he used to wear that protective shield. Both of these factors made it difficult for pitchers to beat him. In 2001, MLB actually changed the strike zone rules and banned Bonds' elbow gear.

Bonds hit 30 or more homeruns for 13 consecutive years covering almost every ballpark in the nation.

As for your distance analysis, you've got a bunch of difficult to determine variables . . . and likely some that you aren't even considering . . . that would make the exercise mute. Who was the pitcher? Did he pitch Bonds inside or make Barry chase? I hope you mean ACTUAL weather on the day Bonds launched a ball?! Using the historical average is definitely inappropriate.
 

classy

Lifer
Oct 12, 1999
15,219
1
81
Nothing more than accusations as usual. Face the fact Babe is now about to be number 3.
 

marincounty

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,227
5
76
Originally posted by: essasin
I do not know too much about steroids but Barry is a Hall of Fame player even without the steroids.

But I disagree about measuring the distance of his HRs. Sure there will be times when he just completly knocks it out of the stadium, but Jose Canseco said it best in his book that Steriods made homeruns out of what would have noramlly been pop flys. Right field is very short in SF and for the most part he did not obliterate the baseballs like McGwire and Sosa did.

Also there are other changing factors which would skew each homerun and would be impossible to figure in with the data. Wind, what type of pitch, and the speed of the pitch. I think you could possibly make an arguement about distance if you had him in a controled enviornment like an indoor homerun derby. Because almost everything besides Barry would be at a constant.

What are you talking about? Right field is short in SF? but it has about a 30 foot high wall you have to get it over. Of all of the splash hits into McCovey cove, Bonds has hit the vast majority. All of the sluggers that have come into SF, and very few can reach the water.
This ballpark is a Pitcher's park, not a homerun park. You can hit it out down the line in left and right, but pretty much anywhere else the ball will die and be caught.
If Barry Bonds had played in Atlanta, New York, Arizona, St. Louis, etc.. he would have 800+ home runs. A lot of the ones Hank Aaron hit were a joke.
 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,928
143
106
Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
As for your distance analysis, you've got a bunch of difficult to determine variables . . . and likely some that you aren't even considering . . . that would make the exercise mute. Who was the pitcher? Did he pitch Bonds inside or make Barry chase? I hope you mean ACTUAL weather on the day Bonds launched a ball?! Using the historical average is definitely inappropriate.
Why would the pitcher matter? By taking the top 20 farthest HR's, I'm going to hypothesize that they were all fastballs because a faster pitch will travel further. You could probably even break it down to how fast each pitch that turned into a HR was, and then somehow do a statistical analysis on it to normalize/average it. It's pretty likely that he didn't chase a pitch, because logically a ball that he got on the sweet part of the barrel should always go farther than one where he was off balance and chasing. Yes, the weather meaning wind (the biggest factor), any precipitation, and possibly even humidity (probably almost irrelevant).

 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,928
143
106
Originally posted by: BlacKJesuS
its kinda funny...everybody in baseball takes steroids



besides that...its a dead sport who cares
Uh, every country in the world for WBC doesn't think so. :roll:

 

PlatinumGold

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
23,168
0
71
Originally posted by: marincounty
Originally posted by: essasin
I do not know too much about steroids but Barry is a Hall of Fame player even without the steroids.

But I disagree about measuring the distance of his HRs. Sure there will be times when he just completly knocks it out of the stadium, but Jose Canseco said it best in his book that Steriods made homeruns out of what would have noramlly been pop flys. Right field is very short in SF and for the most part he did not obliterate the baseballs like McGwire and Sosa did.

Also there are other changing factors which would skew each homerun and would be impossible to figure in with the data. Wind, what type of pitch, and the speed of the pitch. I think you could possibly make an arguement about distance if you had him in a controled enviornment like an indoor homerun derby. Because almost everything besides Barry would be at a constant.

What are you talking about? Right field is short in SF? but it has about a 30 foot high wall you have to get it over. Of all of the splash hits into McCovey cove, Bonds has hit the vast majority. All of the sluggers that have come into SF, and very few can reach the water.
This ballpark is a Pitcher's park, not a homerun park. You can hit it out down the line in left and right, but pretty much anywhere else the ball will die and be caught.
If Barry Bonds had played in Atlanta, New York, Arizona, St. Louis, etc.. he would have 800+ home runs. A lot of the ones Hank Aaron hit were a joke.

by atlanta of course u r referring to the old park and not the current onr ;)
 

Accipiter22

Banned
Feb 11, 2005
7,942
2
0
Originally posted by: Frackal
By sp33ddemon:

well plenty of steroids basically allow your body to convert fat to muscle, on a very very simplified level. You can take in a high fat diet and still be shredded.


Again, unfortunately you are showing you have little understanding of the effects of AAS in the body.


Fat CAN NOT BE CONVERTED TO MUSCLE and vice versa.


One can gain fat, lose fat, and one can gain muscle, and lose muscle, but fat cannot convert to muscle or vice versa.

And it would be the rare person who, simply because of steroids, (and not genetic or other factors) can eat junk and become shredded, whereas w/o steroids they would not be able to achieve that.

Again, this is fundamentally false information you are putting out.

It is really obnoxious to see people just (seemingly) make stuff up about what is a well-understood biological process.



clarification: fat in diet, not in body. And yes, there are plenty of anabolics that allow you to convert fat in the diet to muscle.
 

orangat

Golden Member
Jun 7, 2004
1,579
0
0
Originally posted by: Accipiter22
Originally posted by: Frackal
By sp33ddemon:
well plenty of steroids basically allow your body to convert fat to muscle, on a very very simplified level. You can take in a high fat diet and still be shredded.

Again, unfortunately you are showing you have little understanding of the effects of AAS in the body.
Fat CAN NOT BE CONVERTED TO MUSCLE and vice versa.
One can gain fat, lose fat, and one can gain muscle, and lose muscle, but fat cannot convert to muscle or vice versa.

And it would be the rare person who, simply because of steroids, (and not genetic or other factors) can eat junk and become shredded, whereas w/o steroids they would not be able to achieve that.
Again, this is fundamentally false information you are putting out.
It is really obnoxious to see people just (seemingly) make stuff up about what is a well-understood biological process.

clarification: fat in diet, not in body. And yes, there are plenty of anabolics that allow you to convert fat in the diet to muscle.

No there are not. But its a common myth in brotelligence.
You need protein for anabolism with or without exogenous anabolic steroids.
 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,928
143
106
Not only is baseball investigating, but now the Feds have allegedly opened up a perjury investigation against him:
Text

If it looks like a rat and smells like one, it usually is.
 

Accipiter22

Banned
Feb 11, 2005
7,942
2
0
M-M-M-Monster post: I had sent this to a friend the other day via e-mail

I've read a few of the article on Barry Bonds that seem to be constantly in the news and on ESPN's website lately, and I got to thinking. So what? All evidence points to him using steroids before baseball ever had a single rule in writing about them being illegal. In the late 90's after cal ripken set the mark for consecutive games played...baseball was still floundering. So all of a sudden when these guys started getting huge and jacking these massive home runs, and baseball started to become relevant again, no officials from baseball really investigated HOW these people were suddently defying natural human physiology and becoming this gargantuan. They turned the other way, because baseball needed to be saved, it was circling the drain so to speak.

To be honest I think it was always a "we'll look the other way until the sport is saved THEN we'll do something about it". Which is really too bad; if they hadn't have had the strike in the first place they wouldn't have needed saving. But back to Bonds, what's the worst he did? Took some supplements when almost every other player was either taking amphetamines (this was always baseballs 'secret' problem dating back to the 50's)? Took steroids when so many others were, and it wasn't even against the rules? Everyone now gets on a high horse and says stuff like 'oh wipe out the records, it was so unethical what he did' blah blah blah. Every good pitcher in the majors pretty much throws inside...people like Pedro Martinez will nail people in the head, intentionally. That's unethical, and intentional just as steroid use supposedly is/was.. So should we wipe out the records of every pitcher who depended on the massive intimidation factor of throwing inside?

Personally I think it is unfortunate that a lot of batters/pitchers were using steroids in the 90's not so much because I believe that they were cheating, but that there were plenty of players that did not, and we'll never knew WHO they were, and how these unknown players stats would have been better. Likewise what of players that were considered good that did steroids and people just don't realize it? Their stats might have been inflated. People keep focusing on the same few players (Palmeiro, Sosa, Bonds, and for some reason to a much lesser extent McGwire, who seems to be getting a fairly easy time of it). But these players are representative of what by some accounts might be as much as a 2/3rds to three quarters majority of players who were using some form of steroids in major league baseball. The whole late 90's early 2000's era really puts a chasm in baseball, there's the pre steroids era, the post steroids era....and in between the 2 this giant fissure where stats are in a vortex and we don't really know how to place those players into context. It's like Barry Bonds is some sort of doppleganger creature emerging from this chasm between the 2 eras in baseball to drag some of the most hallowed records back down to the abyss with him. Considering the one thing baseball has over other sports is the tradition and these hallowed stats and records it's too bad that baseball put itself in the position it is in now.

Maybe Bud Selig and other officials could have done something to nip this in the bud back in the 90's stats wouldn't have been all over the place. Maybe it would've taken baseball longer to recover, but at least there would be no rift between these 2 eras, baseball would still have an intact linneage. Also maybe salaries would've been kept more in check. It seems like with the frenzy of stats came a frenzy of money being thrown at players. Either way, there's really not a thing in the world baseball can do at this point without investigating each and every player extensively, and even then....what can they do? Steroids weren't against baseball policy, there was nothing in the rules about them. They can say 'well players XYZ used steroids....' and then not much else....it's really a shame. Baseball in addition to its history has the individual pitcher vs. batter, ball in play vs. fielder dynamics, and how can you review each and every pitch and figure out which specific instances of which specific matchups were effected...and in what way? It's really too bad they took the easy way out after the strike and chose to look the other way only to claim a decade later that they never really wanted it that way to begin with. Every official who says that, on some level, knows that because of the path baseball took, steroids saved the game. They wanted a quick fix, and they got it, rather than working to patch up relationships with fans and taking a longer path to recovery they took the easy way out.
 

PlatinumGold

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
23,168
0
71
Originally posted by: Accipiter22
M-M-M-Monster post: I had sent this to a friend the other day via e-mail

I've read a few of the article on Barry Bonds that seem to be constantly in the news and on ESPN's website lately, and I got to thinking. So what? All evidence points to him using steroids before baseball ever had a single rule in writing about them being illegal. In the late 90's after cal ripken set the mark for consecutive games played...baseball was still floundering. So all of a sudden when these guys started getting huge and jacking these massive home runs, and baseball started to become relevant again, no officials from baseball really investigated HOW these people were suddently defying natural human physiology and becoming this gargantuan. They turned the other way, because baseball needed to be saved, it was circling the drain so to speak.

To be honest I think it was always a "we'll look the other way until the sport is saved THEN we'll do something about it". Which is really too bad; if they hadn't have had the strike in the first place they wouldn't have needed saving. But back to Bonds, what's the worst he did? Took some supplements when almost every other player was either taking amphetamines (this was always baseballs 'secret' problem dating back to the 50's)? Took steroids when so many others were, and it wasn't even against the rules? Everyone now gets on a high horse and says stuff like 'oh wipe out the records, it was so unethical what he did' blah blah blah. Every good pitcher in the majors pretty much throws inside...people like Pedro Martinez will nail people in the head, intentionally. That's unethical, and intentional just as steroid use supposedly is/was.. So should we wipe out the records of every pitcher who depended on the massive intimidation factor of throwing inside?

Personally I think it is unfortunate that a lot of batters/pitchers were using steroids in the 90's not so much because I believe that they were cheating, but that there were plenty of players that did not, and we'll never knew WHO they were, and how these unknown players stats would have been better. Likewise what of players that were considered good that did steroids and people just don't realize it? Their stats might have been inflated. People keep focusing on the same few players (Palmeiro, Sosa, Bonds, and for some reason to a much lesser extent McGwire, who seems to be getting a fairly easy time of it). But these players are representative of what by some accounts might be as much as a 2/3rds to three quarters majority of players who were using some form of steroids in major league baseball. The whole late 90's early 2000's era really puts a chasm in baseball, there's the pre steroids era, the post steroids era....and in between the 2 this giant fissure where stats are in a vortex and we don't really know how to place those players into context. It's like Barry Bonds is some sort of doppleganger creature emerging from this chasm between the 2 eras in baseball to drag some of the most hallowed records back down to the abyss with him. Considering the one thing baseball has over other sports is the tradition and these hallowed stats and records it's too bad that baseball put itself in the position it is in now.

Maybe Bud Selig and other officials could have done something to nip this in the bud back in the 90's stats wouldn't have been all over the place. Maybe it would've taken baseball longer to recover, but at least there would be no rift between these 2 eras, baseball would still have an intact linneage. Also maybe salaries would've been kept more in check. It seems like with the frenzy of stats came a frenzy of money being thrown at players. Either way, there's really not a thing in the world baseball can do at this point without investigating each and every player extensively, and even then....what can they do? Steroids weren't against baseball policy, there was nothing in the rules about them. They can say 'well players XYZ used steroids....' and then not much else....it's really a shame. Baseball in addition to its history has the individual pitcher vs. batter, ball in play vs. fielder dynamics, and how can you review each and every pitch and figure out which specific instances of which specific matchups were effected...and in what way? It's really too bad they took the easy way out after the strike and chose to look the other way only to claim a decade later that they never really wanted it that way to begin with. Every official who says that, on some level, knows that because of the path baseball took, steroids saved the game. They wanted a quick fix, and they got it, rather than working to patch up relationships with fans and taking a longer path to recovery they took the easy way out.

i haven't read the whole thread. i read much of it early on and all the "experts" trying to educate everyone else on what steroids does and does not do and how one is supposed to take it etc was really boring me.


this is one of the few posts i've seen so far i agree with.

i'd say bud selig and MLB is being EXTREMELY hypocritical and if they are to benefit (which the MLB is benefitting) from the mcgwire, sosa and bonds thing in the 90's then they should also cut those guys some slack.

selig really really annoys me.

btw accipter, your OP is incorrect, we have yet to see any actual "PROOF" that bonds did steroids other than what we already knew (he grew way large and put up super human numbers) but those things in itself do not comprise "PROOF" and neither does the book that has been release, AFAWK the entire thing could be fiction.

how well a story is crafted is not PROOF of an act, it's just a well crafted story.
 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,928
143
106
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: Accipiter22
M-M-M-Monster post: I had sent this to a friend the other day via e-mail

I've read a few of the article on Barry Bonds that seem to be constantly in the news and on ESPN's website lately, and I got to thinking. So what? All evidence points to him using steroids before baseball ever had a single rule in writing about them being illegal. In the late 90's after cal ripken set the mark for consecutive games played...baseball was still floundering. So all of a sudden when these guys started getting huge and jacking these massive home runs, and baseball started to become relevant again, no officials from baseball really investigated HOW these people were suddently defying natural human physiology and becoming this gargantuan. They turned the other way, because baseball needed to be saved, it was circling the drain so to speak.

To be honest I think it was always a "we'll look the other way until the sport is saved THEN we'll do something about it". Which is really too bad; if they hadn't have had the strike in the first place they wouldn't have needed saving. But back to Bonds, what's the worst he did? Took some supplements when almost every other player was either taking amphetamines (this was always baseballs 'secret' problem dating back to the 50's)? Took steroids when so many others were, and it wasn't even against the rules? Everyone now gets on a high horse and says stuff like 'oh wipe out the records, it was so unethical what he did' blah blah blah. Every good pitcher in the majors pretty much throws inside...people like Pedro Martinez will nail people in the head, intentionally. That's unethical, and intentional just as steroid use supposedly is/was.. So should we wipe out the records of every pitcher who depended on the massive intimidation factor of throwing inside?

Personally I think it is unfortunate that a lot of batters/pitchers were using steroids in the 90's not so much because I believe that they were cheating, but that there were plenty of players that did not, and we'll never knew WHO they were, and how these unknown players stats would have been better. Likewise what of players that were considered good that did steroids and people just don't realize it? Their stats might have been inflated. People keep focusing on the same few players (Palmeiro, Sosa, Bonds, and for some reason to a much lesser extent McGwire, who seems to be getting a fairly easy time of it). But these players are representative of what by some accounts might be as much as a 2/3rds to three quarters majority of players who were using some form of steroids in major league baseball. The whole late 90's early 2000's era really puts a chasm in baseball, there's the pre steroids era, the post steroids era....and in between the 2 this giant fissure where stats are in a vortex and we don't really know how to place those players into context. It's like Barry Bonds is some sort of doppleganger creature emerging from this chasm between the 2 eras in baseball to drag some of the most hallowed records back down to the abyss with him. Considering the one thing baseball has over other sports is the tradition and these hallowed stats and records it's too bad that baseball put itself in the position it is in now.

Maybe Bud Selig and other officials could have done something to nip this in the bud back in the 90's stats wouldn't have been all over the place. Maybe it would've taken baseball longer to recover, but at least there would be no rift between these 2 eras, baseball would still have an intact linneage. Also maybe salaries would've been kept more in check. It seems like with the frenzy of stats came a frenzy of money being thrown at players. Either way, there's really not a thing in the world baseball can do at this point without investigating each and every player extensively, and even then....what can they do? Steroids weren't against baseball policy, there was nothing in the rules about them. They can say 'well players XYZ used steroids....' and then not much else....it's really a shame. Baseball in addition to its history has the individual pitcher vs. batter, ball in play vs. fielder dynamics, and how can you review each and every pitch and figure out which specific instances of which specific matchups were effected...and in what way? It's really too bad they took the easy way out after the strike and chose to look the other way only to claim a decade later that they never really wanted it that way to begin with. Every official who says that, on some level, knows that because of the path baseball took, steroids saved the game. They wanted a quick fix, and they got it, rather than working to patch up relationships with fans and taking a longer path to recovery they took the easy way out.

i haven't read the whole thread. i read much of it early on and all the "experts" trying to educate everyone else on what steroids does and does not do and how one is supposed to take it etc was really boring me.


this is one of the few posts i've seen so far i agree with.

i'd say bud selig and MLB is being EXTREMELY hypocritical and if they are to benefit (which the MLB is benefitting) from the mcgwire, sosa and bonds thing in the 90's then they should also cut those guys some slack.

selig really really annoys me.

btw accipter, your OP is incorrect, we have yet to see any actual "PROOF" that bonds did steroids other than what we already knew (he grew way large and put up super human numbers) but those things in itself do not comprise "PROOF" and neither does the book that has been release, AFAWK the entire thing could be fiction.

how well a story is crafted is not PROOF of an act, it's just a well crafted story.
A ton of misinformation here. First of all, Accipter, steroids were against baseball policy. They were against federal laws and regulations. Did you even read this thread? The issues is that baseball gave perps a slap on the wrist, and their identity was kept private. If anyone of them were caught with the stuff in their trunk by a cop coming back from Mexico, they would have been in deep sht (to reiterate for the 20th time in this thread). So don't say it wasn't against baseball policy, that's fcking absurd. You act like MLB gave Ken Caminiti roids the year he won MVP and put up monster numbers, hell no, he got them from Mexico.

Platinum, Bonds admitted to using the cream and the clear in sealed testimony, but unknowingly. He admitted using anabolic steroids. The book isn't fiction, it references documents made public by the Feds. Don't comment on something you haven't even read. This is analogous to people saying the Holocaust never happened even though there is relevant evidence. People will believe what they want: whether it's keeping your head up you arse or accepting factual information backed by facts.