[PCPER]NVIDIA Talks DX12, DX11 Efficiency Improvements

[f1sherman]

Everyone seems to think that performance increases are huuuge.

What I see are some impressive gains on certain D3D functions and improvements in two games.
Decent in Thief and excellent in Star Swarm.

Why assume that this will translate in large system wide perf. increases?

 

[VulgarDisplay]

Everyone seems to think that performance increases are huuuge.

What I see are some impressive gains on certain D3D functions and improvements in two games.
Decent in Thief and excellent in Star Swarm.

Why assume that this will translate in large system wide perf. increases?

Yeah, we have no idea what those charts will mean in games. I could be a massive 5fps increase...

I'm holding on to the gtx780 sitting here waiting to go back to amazon if it is all it's hyped up to be though lol.

 

[mindbomb]

If it works, how is it shoddy?

It won't work well in either case. Gsync is a much better solution than freesync, and dx11 with driver tweaks isn't a good alternative to dx12 or mantle. In both cases, the companies are being purposefully misleading.

 

[Spjut]

Everyone seems to think that performance increases are huuuge.

What I see are some impressive gains on certain D3D functions and improvements in two games.
Decent in Thief and excellent in Star Swarm.

Why assume that this will translate in large system wide perf. increases?

The CPU being used is also the i7 3930k

 

[Mand]

It won't work well in either case. Gsync is a much better solution than freesync, and dx11 with driver tweaks isn't a good alternative to dx12 or mantle. In both cases, the companies are being purposefully misleading.

The false equivalency is yours, in this case. Freesync actually was misleading, as in they said things during their demo that they then had to back away from after they were proven untrue by follow-up reporting.

This, though...if DX tweaks make improvements to Nvidia cards, how exactly is that being misleading?

 

[Deders]

The CPU being used is also the i7 3930k

I've already seen minimum frames double from less than 30 to 60fps with my sig rig in Starswarm

 

[mindbomb]

This, though...if DX tweaks make improvements to Nvidia cards, how exactly is that being misleading?

I don't mind the tweaks themselves, just the suggestion that it is an adequate solution for dx11's inherent problems, which whole new api's (dx12 and mantle) were created to fix.

 

[MutantGith]

It could be argued that the drivers weren't done as good as they could have been before.
...
and would indicate (if they were honest) that they did a bad job the first time leaving so much performance untapped.

Yeah..except that's not the way it worked. If that was how development worked, we all should already have 12 nm process, flawless silicon for all of our devices, have lithium batteries with five times the power density that current batteries have...etc.

Saying that when a product or driver that improves the performance over previous iterations is released means that the original was done poorly implies that somehow people can magically come to the optimal solution on the first try. That's not how it works. Back when DX 11 was released, everything was all about tesselation and compute functions. The fact that the CPU landscape was going to flatline, innovation in game coding was going to fall flat due to Console anchoring, etc. wasn't widely known.

Developers worked as best as they could with drivers that they had when games released, the driver teams learned things about how developers were doing things by looking at code and profiling performance, then incorporated fixes and alterations into further drivers that allowed for better operation in further drivers.

That's just the way that ongoing development works. When performance goes up, especially for free, the response is typically "Yay!. Games will run better!" I can't see the point in being upset or feeling like someone held back on performance. It doesn't make empirical sense from knowledge of how these things are developed and rolled out, and it doesn't make business sense for a company to do this in the first place. Sure, sometimes things get missed, and when they are pointed out, usually it would be crazy for them not to address them as quickly as possible.

 

[96Firebird]

I don't mind the tweaks themselves, just the suggestion that it is an adequate solution for dx11's inherent problems, which whole new api's (dx12 and mantle) were created to fix.

If I, as an end user, see improvement, what is the problem?

 

[3DVagabond]

Drivers are given away for free. They're doing additional work for you that you're not paying for. Updated drivers are a bonus, not an entitlement.

I disagree with this. You are paying for the drivers. Customers pay for everything. You are entitled to properly functioning drivers.

 

[96Firebird]

I disagree with this. You are paying for the drivers. Customers pay for everything. You are entitled to properly functioning drivers.

My drivers function fine as they are, I got a little bored of BF4 at the moment but maybe the new DLC will spark my interest again.

Funny, everyone seemed to cheer gracefully when AMD released their performance-enhancing driver's for the HD7xxx series way back when. And rightfully so...

Why are we now questioning Nvidia if they indeed have a driver that can help performance in a big way?

 

[KingFatty]

But isn't this improvement by Nvidia on games *specifically optimized for mantle*?

Aren't we just seeing Nvidia get their crack at shaping their drivers to not be ignorant of the underlying optimizations done to the game?

If someone could please clarify: Are any improvements to Nvidia's driver performance extending beyond games that have been optimized for improved mantle performance?

 

[bystander36]

I disagree with this. You are paying for the drivers. Customers pay for everything. You are entitled to properly functioning drivers.

We are not entitled good drivers, and it is just as much the game dev's responsibility to make their game work for the different video cards and drivers.

That said, if they give poor drivers often, they just won't sell many video cards. It's not so much we are entitled, it just is required for them to stay in business.

 

[3DVagabond]

My drivers function fine as they are, I got a little bored of BF4 at the moment but maybe the new DLC will spark my interest again.

Funny, everyone seemed to cheer gracefully when AMD released their performance-enhancing driver's for the HD7xxx series way back when. And rightfully so...

Why are we now questioning Nvidia if they indeed have a driver that can help performance in a big way?

No there were a lot of people who claimed that all the drivers that came before were failed typical AMD shoddy drivers. They had let their customers down for months with crap drivers, etc... It's part of the politics around here. I'm surprised some people around here don't hurt themselves flip flopping so hard depending on which brand we are talking about.

I would imagine that for this big of an improvement (if true) it would be more on MS's end than nVidia's. I mean seriously, driver improvements are typically in the single digit region.

 

[3DVagabond]

But isn't this improvement by Nvidia on games *specifically optimized for mantle*?

Aren't we just seeing Nvidia get their crack at shaping their drivers to not be ignorant of the underlying optimizations done to the game?

If someone could please clarify: Are any improvements to Nvidia's driver performance extending beyond games that have been optimized for improved mantle performance?

Interesting! I'd like to see if this ends up being the case and that Mantle is not so hardware specific as some think?

 

[TeknoBug]

If you think ATI has had bad drivers for so long, you haven't been gaming for very long, back around when time of the MX420/440 and FX 5xxx cards, Nvidia drivers were HORRIBLE, it made me switch to the ATI X700Pro and X1650Pro which saved my faith in PC gaming.

 

[DominionSeraph]

I disagree with this. You are paying for the drivers. Customers pay for everything. You are entitled to properly functioning drivers.

You aren't entitled to any more performance than from the benchmarks when you bought it. Updated drivers are a bonus.

No there were a lot of people who claimed that all the drivers that came before were failed typical AMD shoddy drivers. They had let their customers down for months with crap drivers, etc... It's part of the politics around here. I'm surprised some people around here don't hurt themselves flip flopping so hard depending on which brand we are talking about.

Buggy drivers != not-infinitely-optimized drivers

AMD not locking up your system is not the same as Nvidia giving you a free 10% FPS bump.

 

[Deders]

You aren't entitled to any more performance than from the benchmarks when you bought it. Updated drivers are a bonus.

It's in the company's interest to make sure their hardware works optimally for newly released games, and it's usually expected that drivers will increase performance as they mature.

 

[SolMiester]

No there were a lot of people who claimed that all the drivers that came before were failed typical AMD shoddy drivers. They had let their customers down for months with crap drivers, etc...
TRUE...2 yrs to fix?!
It's part of the politics around here.
Eh?, id say history!
I'm surprised some people around here don't hurt themselves flip flopping so hard depending on which brand we are talking about.
Wat?
I would imagine that for this big of an improvement (if true) it would be more on MS's end than nVidia's. I mean seriously, driver improvements are typically in the single digit region.

Wat?
Up to 19% in F1 2013
Up to 18% in Sleeping Dogs
Up to 16% in Hitman Absolution
Up to 15% in Company of Heroes 2
Up to 10% in Assassin’s Creed 3
Up to 7% in BioShock Infinite
Up to 6% in Sniper Elite V2
Up to 5% in Total War: Rome 2
Single digits?....Seriously, you need to get off your soap box!

 

[wand3r3r]

Wat?
Up to 19% in F1 2013
Up to 18% in Sleeping Dogs
Up to 16% in Hitman Absolution
Up to 15% in Company of Heroes 2
Up to 10% in Assassin’s Creed 3
Up to 7% in BioShock Infinite
Up to 6% in Sniper Elite V2
Up to 5% in Total War: Rome 2
Single digits?....Seriously, you need to get off your soap box!

Where did you pull that from? (source)

I think his point is fair, those double digit gains are the exception not the rule. After a new game release there may be bigger gains in the next 1-2 drivers but 10%+ gains are not in every driver, much less for every game.

 

[SirPauly]

But isn't this improvement by Nvidia on games *specifically optimized for mantle*?

Aren't we just seeing Nvidia get their crack at shaping their drivers to not be ignorant of the underlying optimizations done to the game?

If someone could please clarify: Are any improvements to Nvidia's driver performance extending beyond games that have been optimized for improved mantle performance?

Here is a quote that may answer:

NVIDIA claims that these fixes are not game specific and will improve performance and efficiency for a lot of GeForce users.

 

[KingFatty]

Here is a quote that may answer:

Originally Posted by PCPerspective
NVIDIA claims that these fixes are not game specific and will improve performance and efficiency for a lot of GeForce users.

Now that is encouraging to see! However, just to be nit-picking, that technically does not answer the question, because it is possible that multiple games employ whatever tricks that make mantle look good, so those multiple games would also show improvements on Nvidia's drivers, if the assumption is true that the gains can be achieved by both AMD and Nvidia when it comes to games that have been optimized.

The question remains - does that statement by PCPerspective mean that improvements are limited to all games that are optimized for mantle, or all games everywhere regardless?

 

[Ed1]

There claiming the improvements are global efficiency is certain modules of the drivers .

Of course you probably won't xx% across the board , it will be in certain games and certain circumstances (CPU bound ) .

It should help with min fps and smooth things out in games that are CPU intensive .

Only a week or so and there be reviews comparing the drivers I am sure .

 

[VulgarDisplay]

Does anyone know when these drivers are coming? I can only return my gtx780 until like April 10...

If these are going to make the gtx780 faster in all games than the r9 290 then I need to know soon haha.

 

[f1sherman]

Does anyone know when these drivers are coming? I can only return my gtx780 until like April 10...

If these are going to make the gtx780 faster in all games than the r9 290 then I need to know soon haha.

Early april (as per ManeulG from nV forums)