[PCPER]NVIDIA Talks DX12, DX11 Efficiency Improvements

[Deders]

Imagine if that wasn't the case: propriety, hw limited AND SERVES NO PURPOSE.

But something else is also evident from that graph - that NV DX11 is closer to Mantle than to AMD DX11

It is unclear how much NVAPI factors in to Nvidia's performance. Both BF3 and 4 apparently use NVAPI.

 

[Gloomy]

Nvidia is making efficiency claims, not performance claims.

It's pretty clear that DX11 isn't as efficient as Mantle and for Nvidia to say otherwise, well that's a pretty ridiculous claim that isn't backed up by a 5FPS gain in Thief with a 3930K.

Let's not turn this into a GPU vs GPU pissing contest. Saying they can get DX11 to be as efficient as Mantle is big talk, I hope they deliver.

Don't want to have to accuse Nvidia of empty PR.

 

[krumme]

Absolutely not...

~32-33 mins in
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wa-DRVqPJRo

Infraction issued for thread crapping.
-- stahlhart

 

[Keysplayr]

Absolutely not...

~32-33 mins in
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wa-DRVqPJRo

Infraction issued for thread crapping.
-- stahlhart

Why are people linking to this video?

 

[Carfax83]

It is unclear how much NVAPI factors in to Nvidia's performance. Both BF3 and 4 apparently use NVAPI.

NVAPI isn't a performance enhancing feature. It's for interfacing low level driver and GPU features with games..

For example, say a game has an anisotropic filtering setting. I think they use NVAPI to interface the game setting with the driver so that the setting works as advertised.

 

[Carfax83]

Let's not turn this into a GPU vs GPU pissing contest. Saying they can get DX11 to be as efficient as Mantle is big talk, I hope they deliver.

Don't want to have to accuse Nvidia of empty PR.

I don't think NVidia is saying they can get DX11 to be as efficient as Mantle. I don't think that's even possible without serious changes a la DX12.

But DX11 can probably be made more efficient to rival Mantle, in the sense that CPU usage can be improved considerably to the point where it's not a handicap on GPU output.

 

[rgallant]

I don't think NVidia is saying they can get DX11 to be as efficient as Mantle. I don't think that's even possible without serious changes a la DX12.

But DX11 can probably be made more efficient to rival Mantle, in the sense that CPU usage can be improved considerably to the point where it's not a handicap on GPU output.

would that be better dev. tools from nv for dx11 ? [and dx12 in 2015 ish]

 

[OCGuy]

Nvidia has been busy. Here they are with Intel and AMD, together on one set of slides, pushing Open GL.

Mantle has obviously done one thing: Made improving PC graphics a hot topic again.

http://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2014/03/20/opengl-gdc2014/

 

[rgallant]

Nvidia has been busy. Here they are with Intel and AMD, together on one set of slides, pushing Open GL.

Mantle has obviously done one thing: Made improving PC graphics a hot topic again.

http://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2014/03/20/opengl-gdc2014/

will view this later
-ms is in conflict with it's dx[and has crippled it] vs $$$ consoles ,and yet amd with mantle is not allowed [per peeps]because of based on amd gpu's .lol
-now Open gl might get some lime light with mantle showing what crippled dev's tools are [dx] and what the dev's have been limited to. imo

 

[monstercameron]

it seems MS is also downplaying their own command list.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7889/...level-graphics-programming-comes-to-directx/2

Meanwhile it’s interesting to note that with this change Microsoft has admitted that Direct3D 11 style immediate/deferred command lists haven’t lived up to their goals, stating “deferred contexts also do not map perfectly to hardware, and so relatively little work can be done in them.” To our knowledge the only game able to make significant use of the feature was Civilization V, and even then we’ve seen AMD video cards perform very well without supporting the feature.

 

[el etro]

We know from Battlefield 4 that nVidia has a much smaller DX11 driver and API overhead than AMD.
Shanghai on a 64 man server - october 2013:

http://pclab.pl/art55318-5.html

http://techreport.com/review/25995/first-look-amd-mantle-cpu-performance-in-battlefield-4/2

If they are working to improve the overhead much more their DX11 driver will be as good as or better than Mantle.

Well, BF4 favors Nvidia cards today, no wrong thing here.

Techreport test sets the game at High+FieldOfView70 to test it. Its strange.

About PClab.pl test: Its a GTX780ghz with clocks averaging at 1110Mhz vs a ~900Mhz default 290x. That's why the results are so good for Nvidia. If they used R9 290x Lightning at the test....

 

[moonbogg]

If Nvidia could have improved performance that much with just a driver update, why didn't they do it before? People aren't pissed about this?

 

[TeknoBug]

If Nvidia could have improved performance that much with just a driver update, why didn't they do it before? People aren't pissed about this?

This sort of stuff happens all over the business world all the time, companies sometimes intentionally keep things toned down and "improve" them over time as an upgrade, I've seen this in automotive manufacturers.

 

[ShintaiDK]

If Nvidia could have improved performance that much with just a driver update, why didn't they do it before? People aren't pissed about this?

More FUD? :awe:

You can make up these tinfoil stories for all companies. But none of them hold anything back on purpose. I assume every single AMD/nVidia driver then with any performance update was simply hold back on purpose.

 

[moonbogg]

More FUD? :awe:

You can make up these tinfoil stories for all companies. But none of them hold anything back on purpose.

http://www.guru3d.com/news_story/nvidias_tba_dx11_will_be_better_than_mantle.html

They say the same thing. Save your insults and trolling, I don't need it.

 

[ShintaiDK]

http://www.guru3d.com/news_story/nvidias_tba_dx11_will_be_better_than_mantle.html

They say the same thing. Save your insults and trolling, I don't need it.

You would notice incremental performance increases.

Just like any other company that refines and optimize. The exact same can be said about AMD for that matter. And in both cases it would be wrong to accuse any of them on holding back performance on purpose.

But again, it must be better to hold back a better driver thats release ready. So nVidia didnt increase marketshare further, didnt reap in more profits and revenue. Plus the stocks didnt increase in value. Instead, by your view, they all decided it was better to save it for a rainy day or simply holding it back to grief you.

Ye....

 

[moonbogg]

You would notice incremental performance increases.

Just like any other company that refines and optimize. The exact same can be said about AMD for that matter. And in both cases it would be wrong to accuse any of them on holding back performance on purpose.

But again, it must be better to hold back a better driver thats release ready. So nVidia didnt increase marketshare further, didnt reap in more profits and revenue. Plus the stocks didnt increase in value. Instead, by your view, they all decided it was better to save it for a rainy day or simply holding it back to grief you.

Ye....

I would think they only give us what is needed to stay competitive. AMD turned up the pressure with Mantle, so Nvidia is now starting to deliver to counter it. The increase seems massive according to the slides, so some are wondering why they didn't work this magic earlier. I think the simple answer is that they didn't need to, so of course, they didn't.
Also, if Mantle never came around, Kepler would have gone EOL and no one would ever see such an increase. Seems like such a waste. Mantle is having a good effect on the industry.

 

[Spjut]

I don't doubt that the drivers bring performance improvements, but I'll have an easier time believing those claims once sites test the drivers with a worse CPU than the 3930k

 

[ShintaiDK]

I would think they only give us what is needed to stay competitive. AMD turned up the pressure with Mantle, so Nvidia is now starting to deliver to counter it. The increase seems massive according to the slides, so some are wondering why they didn't work this magic earlier. I think the simple answer is that they didn't need to, so of course, they didn't.
Also, if Mantle never came around, Kepler would have gone EOL and no one would ever see such an increase. Seems like such a waste. Mantle is having a good effect on the industry.

AMD obviously delayed Mantle until they saw fit. I mean, they could have released much sooner. They just held it back on purpose.

And nVidia just said no to extra revenue, extra porfit and extra marketshare. Just to cheat you from any extra performance.

Intel is also holding back a 12th generation Core CPU on 5mn on purpose. Just pesky evil company that wants to milk us.

All 3 sentences above are as dumb as they sound. For the exact same reason why nVidia didnt hold back performance on purpose. And the nVidia driver is still unreleased, because its not done.

 

[piesquared]

AMD obviously delayed Mantle until they saw fit. I mean, they could have released much sooner. They just held it back on purpose.

And nVidia just said no to extra revenue, extra porfit and extra marketshare. Just to cheat you from any extra performance.

Intel is also holding back a 12th generation Core CPU on 5mn on purpose. Just pesky evil company that wants to milk us.

All 3 sentences above are as dumb as they sound. For the exact same reason why nVidia didnt hold back performance on purpose. And the nVidia driver is still unreleased, because its not done.

Oh I think 2 years is more than reasonable for an entirely new API. After all, it will take Microsoft 6 years with Billions upon Billions of cash resources to throw it...

BTW, doesn't your continuous thread crapping and insults warrant infractions? I'll report and find out.


Next time don't publicize that you are going to report a post. Technically you are calling him out and that is not permitted.

-Rvenger

 

[mindbomb]

Ugh. I really don't like this type of thing nvidia is implying with dx11 vs mantle. One company develops something interesting, and another responds with some shoddy alternative, and tries to make a false equivalency. AMD has done it with freesync, and now nvidia is doing it with dx11.

 

[DominionSeraph]

If Nvidia could have improved performance that much with just a driver update, why didn't they do it before? People aren't pissed about this?

Drivers are given away for free. They're doing additional work for you that you're not paying for. Updated drivers are a bonus, not an entitlement.

Ugh. I really don't like this type of thing nvidia is implying with dx11 vs mantle. One company develops something interesting, and another responds with some shoddy alternative, and tries to make a false equivalency.

>DirectX
>shoddy

LOL.
Try playing a PS1 game on your PS4. Try running Powermac G4 software on your shiny new trashcan.

The Wintel ecosystem is unrivaled in how great it has been for gamers. I currently have loaded:
-Homeworld
-Deus Ex
-System Shock 2
-Baldur's Gate 1+2
... on the same system I could run BF4.
Try doing that on a Mantle-only OS.

 

[96Firebird]

Ugh. I really don't like this type of thing nvidia is implying with dx11 vs mantle. One company develops something interesting, and another responds with some shoddy alternative, and tries to make a false equivalency. AMD has done it with freesync, and now nvidia is doing it with dx11.

If it works, how is it shoddy?

 

[R0H1T]

Drivers are given away for free. They're doing additional work for you that you're not paying for. Updated drivers are a bonus, not an entitlement.

That's not true otherwise we wouldn't ever have security or OS enhancement patches for Windows, or even Linux, granted that we're talking about hardware but the manufacturer is under obligation(not legally though) to improve the product, through drivers, for as long as the product is being sold ! You can't expect someone to pay for a piece of hardware where the manufacturer will let the buyer high & dry after he's made the purchase, same thing applies for phones/tablets et al.

 

[moonbogg]

Drivers are given away for free. They're doing additional work for you that you're not paying for. Updated drivers are a bonus, not an entitlement.

It could be argued that the drivers weren't done as good as they could have been before. This is not a small driver improvement according to what they are claiming. This is a huge increase in performance and would indicate (if they were honest) that they did a bad job the first time leaving so much performance untapped.
If I performed my job like that I'd get fired. "oh yeah, I forgot to deliver 30% of your parts because I didn't feel it was necessary".

Also, when they are charging what they are for a 780ti, you would EXPECT them to do everything possible to give you the best from the product. "Driver update". Give me a break.