Papers across Europe reprinting those carricatures of Mohammed

[imported_hscorpio]

Originally posted by: mect

Originally posted by: hscorpio

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: hscorpio
Good point about Denmark and it's monarchy, I did not know that. However I don't see this as an issue about abusing the freedom of press to be disrespectful anymore. It is now more about the fact that free societies should not tolerate someone using or suggesting the use of violent force to restrict their freedoms. When other newspapers reprint the offending images I think they should put them into context and state that they are publishing them as a show of support for freedom of the press, and that they will not be bullied by religious fanatics.

To put it into complete context, there is a lot of racial and religious tension in Denmark against the Muslim immigrants, making it a little hard to say who bullied who first.

If a bully calls a person names and makes jokes about his shoes is the person justified to retaliate by murdering the bully? Thats what this is now about, the message needs to be sent that you can't murder everyone who offends your beliefs or does not share your beliefs.

So according to your thinking we should teach people not to bully by calling them names? I'm confused.

More like we we should teach people that you can't resort to force/violence when someone does bully you verbally or emotionally, or just plain says something you don't like. If those that use the threat of violence are appeased it only makes the situation worse, since now they will assume that you can be forced into whatever it is they demand.

I understand what you mean though, perhaps republishing the offending images is not the best way to do what I am getting at. I just think the one thing that is worse than republishing the images is to criticize the original paper and remain silent about the death threats and ME countries crying for legal action.

 

[mect]

Originally posted by: hscorpio

Originally posted by: mect

Originally posted by: hscorpio

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: hscorpio
Good point about Denmark and it's monarchy, I did not know that. However I don't see this as an issue about abusing the freedom of press to be disrespectful anymore. It is now more about the fact that free societies should not tolerate someone using or suggesting the use of violent force to restrict their freedoms. When other newspapers reprint the offending images I think they should put them into context and state that they are publishing them as a show of support for freedom of the press, and that they will not be bullied by religious fanatics.

To put it into complete context, there is a lot of racial and religious tension in Denmark against the Muslim immigrants, making it a little hard to say who bullied who first.

If a bully calls a person names and makes jokes about his shoes is the person justified to retaliate by murdering the bully? Thats what this is now about, the message needs to be sent that you can't murder everyone who offends your beliefs or does not share your beliefs.

So according to your thinking we should teach people not to bully by calling them names? I'm confused.

More like we we should teach people that you can't resort to force/violence when someone does bully you verbally or emotionally, or just plain says something you don't like. If those that use the threat of violence are appeased it only makes the situation worse, since now they will assume that you can be forced into whatever it is they demand.

I understand what you mean though, perhaps republishing the offending images is not the best way to do what I am getting at. I just think the one thing that is worse than republishing the images is to criticize the original paper and remain silent about the death threats and ME countries crying for legal action.

Yeah, I understand that what they are doing is hardly right, and it is a greater wrong than what these publishers did. However, I hardly think that these papers are being responsible with freedom of press. Does anyone really think that what they printed will help anyone in the middle east to realize the importance of free speech/press. Hardly. It won't do any good, and could cause a lot of harm. It is rather amusing to see people who constantly critisize Bush's political policies that increase conflict and tension yet advocate something like this that will not help in anyway and can easily increase violence throughout the world.

 

[Proletariat]

Originally posted by: AnitaPeterson
Here's another link, don't hammer it!

http://imagineworldhealth.org/MBOE.pdf

wtf I hope all those quotes from the Koran are false

 

[imported_hscorpio]

Originally posted by: mect

Originally posted by: hscorpio

Originally posted by: mect
So according to your thinking we should teach people not to bully by calling them names? I'm confused.

More like we we should teach people that you can't resort to force/violence when someone does bully you verbally or emotionally, or just plain says something you don't like. If those that use the threat of violence are appeased it only makes the situation worse, since now they will assume that you can be forced into whatever it is they demand.

I understand what you mean though, perhaps republishing the offending images is not the best way to do what I am getting at. I just think the one thing that is worse than republishing the images is to criticize the original paper and remain silent about the death threats and ME countries crying for legal action.

Yeah, I understand that what they are doing is hardly right, and it is a greater wrong than what these publishers did. However, I hardly think that these papers are being responsible with freedom of press. Does anyone really think that what they printed will help anyone in the middle east to realize the importance of free speech/press. Hardly. It won't do any good, and could cause a lot of harm. It is rather amusing to see people who constantly critisize Bush's political policies that increase conflict and tension yet advocate something like this that will not help in anyway and can easily increase violence throughout the world.

Another way to look at it is to ask what good has come from pussyfooting around this issue? Are the people of the ME ever going to have free speech, if the extremist amongst them are given free reign on the use/threat of violence against those who would dare criticize/offend/blasphemy/etc? Everyone's so scared to criticize islam that no meaningful debate ever really takes place since so many are forced to censor themselves under the fear of violence. Of course I'm assuming the followers of Islam could really seriously benefit from some construtive criticism and debate.

 

[LumbergTech]

Originally posted by: hscorpio

Originally posted by: mect

Originally posted by: hscorpio

Originally posted by: mect
So according to your thinking we should teach people not to bully by calling them names? I'm confused.

More like we we should teach people that you can't resort to force/violence when someone does bully you verbally or emotionally, or just plain says something you don't like. If those that use the threat of violence are appeased it only makes the situation worse, since now they will assume that you can be forced into whatever it is they demand.

I understand what you mean though, perhaps republishing the offending images is not the best way to do what I am getting at. I just think the one thing that is worse than republishing the images is to criticize the original paper and remain silent about the death threats and ME countries crying for legal action.

Yeah, I understand that what they are doing is hardly right, and it is a greater wrong than what these publishers did. However, I hardly think that these papers are being responsible with freedom of press. Does anyone really think that what they printed will help anyone in the middle east to realize the importance of free speech/press. Hardly. It won't do any good, and could cause a lot of harm. It is rather amusing to see people who constantly critisize Bush's political policies that increase conflict and tension yet advocate something like this that will not help in anyway and can easily increase violence throughout the world.

Another way to look at it is to ask what good has come from pussyfooting around this issue? Are the people of the ME ever going to have free speech, if the extremist amongst them are given free reign on the use/threat of violence against those who would dare criticize/offend/blasphemy/etc? Everyone's so scared to criticize islam that no meaningful debate ever really takes place since so many are forced to censor themselves under the fear of violence. Of course I'm assuming the followers of Islam could really seriously benefit from some construtive criticism and debate.

that is probably true about any group..including the united states

 

[judasmachine]

aren't their sects of christianity that don't believe in making images of god? coptics, or something or other, it's been a while since i've thought of such things.

 

[Atheus]

Originally posted by: Gigantopithecus
Oui, on a le droit de caricaturer Dieu.

"Yes, we have a right to caricature god."

Headline from a french paper yesterday.

 

[zephyrprime]

Originally posted by: judasmachine
aren't their sects of christianity that don't believe in making images of god? coptics, or something or other, it's been a while since i've thought of such things.

ALL of them are but most don't make a huge deal about it. The bible contains a passage that is says "graven images" are bad. By the way, it's from the world of relogion that the word "icon" comes even though now it most often associated with little pictures on computers.

 

[mect]

Originally posted by: hscorpio

Originally posted by: mect

Originally posted by: hscorpio

Originally posted by: mect
So according to your thinking we should teach people not to bully by calling them names? I'm confused.

More like we we should teach people that you can't resort to force/violence when someone does bully you verbally or emotionally, or just plain says something you don't like. If those that use the threat of violence are appeased it only makes the situation worse, since now they will assume that you can be forced into whatever it is they demand.

I understand what you mean though, perhaps republishing the offending images is not the best way to do what I am getting at. I just think the one thing that is worse than republishing the images is to criticize the original paper and remain silent about the death threats and ME countries crying for legal action.

Yeah, I understand that what they are doing is hardly right, and it is a greater wrong than what these publishers did. However, I hardly think that these papers are being responsible with freedom of press. Does anyone really think that what they printed will help anyone in the middle east to realize the importance of free speech/press. Hardly. It won't do any good, and could cause a lot of harm. It is rather amusing to see people who constantly critisize Bush's political policies that increase conflict and tension yet advocate something like this that will not help in anyway and can easily increase violence throughout the world.

Another way to look at it is to ask what good has come from pussyfooting around this issue? Are the people of the ME ever going to have free speech, if the extremist amongst them are given free reign on the use/threat of violence against those who would dare criticize/offend/blasphemy/etc? Everyone's so scared to criticize islam that no meaningful debate ever really takes place since so many are forced to censor themselves under the fear of violence. Of course I'm assuming the followers of Islam could really seriously benefit from some construtive criticism and debate.

I would hardly call what these news papers are doing as constructive cricism. It is possible to critisize in a more responsible manner. I agree, we shouldn't have to dance around the issue. I also agree these people should have the right to publish what they want. I'm just believe that what they published was an irresponsible use of their freedom. While the reaction from the middle east wouldn't likely be any better to any form of critisism, other countries should try to publish things that are respectful of the culture.

 

[Rommels]

Not sure who first said this but I like it...
It's your god. They're your rules. *You* go to hell.

 

[0roo0roo]

http://skender.be/supportdenmark/ with links to cartoons

we've been humoring these people too long..thinking they are primitive and will grow out of it, that they know no better...ignoring the evils to be polite. but the self censorship has been taken as some kind of right to intimidate any dissent or percieved blasphemy. this ideology has been appeased for too long. everyone handling them with kid gloves, with their superiority complex where they assume all infidels have to bow to their perfect and obviously true religion how dare the infidel question this

 

[Aimster]

http://skender.be/supportdenmark/MohammedDrawings.jpg

Why is there Indians who are not Muslims in those pictures?

Sounds to me the people behind this were nothing but uneducated bigots

 

[chcarnage]

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: Gigantopithecus
Oui, on a le droit de caricaturer Dieu.

"Yes, we have a right to caricature god."

Headline from a french paper yesterday.

And yesterday the chief editor of this paper was fired by the French-Egyptian owner. Paris Soir is a tabloid whose print run went down to 45'000, maybe facing bankruptcy. The background of the editor's move is not clear yet.

 

[dwell]

All cartoons:

http://www.di2.nu/files/Muhammed_Cartoons_Jyllands_Posten.html

If Kayen West can pose as Jesus on the cover of Rolling Stone BFD re the Muhammed thing.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Originally posted by: irwincur
Great, and WWIII begins. As Europe loses its identity it will undoubtedly lash out against those that it blames. On the other hand, the radical Muslims (more of them than you think - about 75% of European Muslims) will lash out against European culture.

This will simmer for a while - perhaps a deacde. At some point, Islamists will strike Europe and the world will be unable to prevent the massive uprisings and multiple civil wars. Bring in the old enemies of Europe that now have some power (the Middle East and Russia) and you have a classic World War. Once again, America will sit it out for a bit until China decides that the time is right and attacks America and the Western nations of Asia. I see this next major war as playing out almost the same as WWII with slightly different players.

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
we've been humoring these people too long..thinking they are primitive and will grow out of it, that they know no better...ignoring the evils to be polite. but the self censorship has been taken as some kind of right to intimidate any dissent or percieved blasphemy. this ideology has been appeased for too long. everyone handling them with kid gloves, with their superiority complex where they assume all infidels have to bow to their perfect and obviously true religion how dare the infidel question this

The first thing we got to do is seal up the borders and make sure no more get in. The next step should involve making sure we identify all of them who are inside our borders already. Appoint some officals to start to deal with the problem specifically. We better start to just refer to this as *the problem* as too not upset some people. The ones who are already here can have the option to get out ( can probably make some decent money off them in the process). The ones that can't leave sould probably be put in some kind of camp. That's just a few thoughts on how to deal with this, we'll figure out what to do as we go along.

//deepdeepsarcasm

 

[judasmachine]

Originally posted by: zephyrprime

Originally posted by: judasmachine
aren't their sects of christianity that don't believe in making images of god? coptics, or something or other, it's been a while since i've thought of such things.

ALL of them are but most don't make a huge deal about it. The bible contains a passage that is says "graven images" are bad. By the way, it's from the world of relogion that the word "icon" comes even though now it most often associated with little pictures on computers.

Now that you mention it...
I think it was the sect "Iconoclasts" that went around burning churches for their human decpictions of god.

 

[imported_hscorpio]

Originally posted by: LumbergTech

Originally posted by: hscorpio
... Of course I'm assuming the followers of Islam could really seriously benefit from some construtive criticism and debate.

that is probably true about any group..including the united states

Yes it is true about every human endeavor, we are not perfect and there is always a need for constructive criticism. That is whats nice about freedom of speech in the US, we can openly criticisize the dominant religion, the president, congress, judges, and anything we percieve as needing of criticism. The freedom to express ones beliefs, no matter how offended someone gets (and lets face it someone is always offended about something) is a fundamental component of a free society.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Orignal Earl

Originally posted by: irwincur
Great, and WWIII begins. As Europe loses its identity it will undoubtedly lash out against those that it blames. On the other hand, the radical Muslims (more of them than you think - about 75% of European Muslims) will lash out against European culture.

This will simmer for a while - perhaps a deacde. At some point, Islamists will strike Europe and the world will be unable to prevent the massive uprisings and multiple civil wars. Bring in the old enemies of Europe that now have some power (the Middle East and Russia) and you have a classic World War. Once again, America will sit it out for a bit until China decides that the time is right and attacks America and the Western nations of Asia. I see this next major war as playing out almost the same as WWII with slightly different players.

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
we've been humoring these people too long..thinking they are primitive and will grow out of it, that they know no better...ignoring the evils to be polite. but the self censorship has been taken as some kind of right to intimidate any dissent or percieved blasphemy. this ideology has been appeased for too long. everyone handling them with kid gloves, with their superiority complex where they assume all infidels have to bow to their perfect and obviously true religion how dare the infidel question this

The first thing we got to do is seal up the borders and make sure no more get in. The next step should involve making sure we identify all of them who are inside our borders already. Appoint some officals to start to deal with the problem specifically. We better start to just refer to this as *the problem* as too not upset some people. The ones who are already here can have the option to get out ( can probably make some decent money off them in the process). The ones that can't leave sould probably be put in some kind of camp. That's just a few thoughts on how to deal with this, we'll figure out what to do as we go along.

//deepdeepsarcasm

Yeah, we're so scared.

/deeper sarcasm

 

[imported_hscorpio]

Originally posted by: mect

Originally posted by: hscorpio


Another way to look at it is to ask what good has come from pussyfooting around this issue? Are the people of the ME ever going to have free speech, if the extremist amongst them are given free reign on the use/threat of violence against those who would dare criticize/offend/blasphemy/etc? Everyone's so scared to criticize islam that no meaningful debate ever really takes place since so many are forced to censor themselves under the fear of violence. Of course I'm assuming the followers of Islam could really seriously benefit from some construtive criticism and debate.

I would hardly call what these news papers are doing as constructive cricism. It is possible to critisize in a more responsible manner. I agree, we shouldn't have to dance around the issue. I also agree these people should have the right to publish what they want. I'm just believe that what they published was an irresponsible use of their freedom. While the reaction from the middle east wouldn't likely be any better to any form of critisism, other countries should try to publish things that are respectful of the culture.

I agree, its not serious criticism at all, they are just cartoons... satire. But what if it was a scathing essay on the leaders of islam, written by a muslim sorta like martin luthers deal. The response would be the same death threats and all. Should europe really wait for something like that to happen before it stands up for freedom of speech?

Now is a perfect time to stand up for free speech given that the suppossed blasphemy is in the form of cartoons drawn by non-muslims. If a strong stance is taken on the right to print silly cartoons, then perhaps the door will be open later for the opportunity to actually even have some responsible criticism without fear of every ME leader issuing a fatwa.

 

[Tom]

Originally posted by: Satchel

Originally posted by: ArneBjarne

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: ArneBjarne

Originally posted by: Vic
While I fully support the freedom of the press, I see no reason for that freedom to be abused as an excuse to be disrespectful, hateful, or bigoted, or to incite tensions among a religious minority. In other words, just because you are free to do something does not mean that you should.

Nor should Denmark pretend that it is somehow enlightened or secular when it truly is not. It is one of the last surviving Christian monarchies in Europe, and the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Denmark is the state church, which is supported by public taxation even on atheists and Muslims.

That is 100% incorrect. Only members of the church pay.

Wikipedia link

The Evangelical Lutheran Church of Denmark is a state church. The Danish parliament, Folketinget, is the legislative authority for the church. The Minister for Ecclesiastical Affairs is the highest administrative authority.

The members of the church pay 0.42 to 1.51 per cent, depending on their commune, of their total income to the church, the so called church tax. Even though Denmark is a secular democracy, atheists, Muslims, and other religious movements still pay to the church because it is a part of the government's budget. That has lead to a great deal of debate in Denmark.

My point exactly. The first part stating members pay is correct, the second part of the wiki entrance, which contradicts the first part is not. If you are not a member you do not pay, that is how it is.

There is no contradiction. Read it a few more times and maybe you'll understand.

Doesn't it depend on the amount collected from members of the church ? If the "church tax" revenue, which I guess only members pay, is sufficient to pay the part of the budget that goes to church functions, then how are non-members paying for the church ?

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: hscorpio



I agree, its not serious criticism at all, they are just cartoons... satire. But what if it was a scathing essay on the leaders of islam, written by a muslim sorta like martin luthers deal. The response would be the same death threats and all. Should europe really wait for something like that to happen before it stands up for freedom of speech?

Now is a perfect time to stand up for free speech given that the suppossed blasphemy is in the form of cartoons drawn by non-muslims. If a strong stance is taken on the right to print silly cartoons, then perhaps the door will be open later for the opportunity to actually even have some responsible criticism without fear of every ME leader issuing a fatwa.

Heh, why don't you stand up for free speech in the US first. Maybe major news paper here should start printing cartoons on black taking social handouts and latino jumping over fences on the border. According to you, news paper have the right to print cartoons making fun of entire race/religion in anyway they see fit right? And it is a problem in the US with more black living under poverty than the rest of the population, and more latino being illigal immigrants isn't it? It is all constructive criticism right?

Who cares about generalization, who cares about sterotyping and who cares about respecting the other race and religion right? As long as your group have your fun and get your superiority complex satisfied, it's all well and good right?

 

[imported_hscorpio]

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: hscorpio



I agree, its not serious criticism at all, they are just cartoons... satire. But what if it was a scathing essay on the leaders of islam, written by a muslim sorta like martin luthers deal. The response would be the same death threats and all. Should europe really wait for something like that to happen before it stands up for freedom of speech?

Now is a perfect time to stand up for free speech given that the suppossed blasphemy is in the form of cartoons drawn by non-muslims. If a strong stance is taken on the right to print silly cartoons, then perhaps the door will be open later for the opportunity to actually even have some responsible criticism without fear of every ME leader issuing a fatwa.

Heh, why don't you stand up for free speech in the US first. Maybe major news paper here should start printing cartoons on black taking social handouts and latino jumping over fences on the border. According to you, news paper have the right to print cartoons making fun of entire race/religion in anyway they see fit right? And it is a problem in the US with more black living under poverty than the rest of the population, and more latino being illigal immigrants isn't it? It is all constructive criticism right?

Who cares about generalization, who cares about sterotyping and who cares about respecting the other race and religion right? As long as your group have your fun and get your superiority complex satisfied, it's all well and good right?

WTF are you talking about? Do you ever watch tv in the US? Satire of religion, race, economics, ... everything, goes on in the US. Freedom of speech is still kicking in the US despite attempts to squelch it.

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: hscorpio

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: hscorpio



I agree, its not serious criticism at all, they are just cartoons... satire. But what if it was a scathing essay on the leaders of islam, written by a muslim sorta like martin luthers deal. The response would be the same death threats and all. Should europe really wait for something like that to happen before it stands up for freedom of speech?

Now is a perfect time to stand up for free speech given that the suppossed blasphemy is in the form of cartoons drawn by non-muslims. If a strong stance is taken on the right to print silly cartoons, then perhaps the door will be open later for the opportunity to actually even have some responsible criticism without fear of every ME leader issuing a fatwa.

Heh, why don't you stand up for free speech in the US first. Maybe major news paper here should start printing cartoons on black taking social handouts and latino jumping over fences on the border. According to you, news paper have the right to print cartoons making fun of entire race/religion in anyway they see fit right? And it is a problem in the US with more black living under poverty than the rest of the population, and more latino being illigal immigrants isn't it? It is all constructive criticism right?

Who cares about generalization, who cares about sterotyping and who cares about respecting the other race and religion right? As long as your group have your fun and get your superiority complex satisfied, it's all well and good right?

WTF are you talking about? Do you ever watch tv in the US? Satire of religion, race, economics, ... everything, goes on in the US. Freedom of speech is still kicking in the US despite attempts to squelch it.

Yeah right, show me one big media that's printing stuff like that and not resulted in somebody getting fired or getting sued.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: hscorpio

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: hscorpio



I agree, its not serious criticism at all, they are just cartoons... satire. But what if it was a scathing essay on the leaders of islam, written by a muslim sorta like martin luthers deal. The response would be the same death threats and all. Should europe really wait for something like that to happen before it stands up for freedom of speech?

Now is a perfect time to stand up for free speech given that the suppossed blasphemy is in the form of cartoons drawn by non-muslims. If a strong stance is taken on the right to print silly cartoons, then perhaps the door will be open later for the opportunity to actually even have some responsible criticism without fear of every ME leader issuing a fatwa.

Heh, why don't you stand up for free speech in the US first. Maybe major news paper here should start printing cartoons on black taking social handouts and latino jumping over fences on the border. According to you, news paper have the right to print cartoons making fun of entire race/religion in anyway they see fit right? And it is a problem in the US with more black living under poverty than the rest of the population, and more latino being illigal immigrants isn't it? It is all constructive criticism right?

Who cares about generalization, who cares about sterotyping and who cares about respecting the other race and religion right? As long as your group have your fun and get your superiority complex satisfied, it's all well and good right?

WTF are you talking about? Do you ever watch tv in the US? Satire of religion, race, economics, ... everything, goes on in the US. Freedom of speech is still kicking in the US despite attempts to squelch it.

Yeah right, show me one big media that's printing stuff like that and not resulted in somebody getting fired or getting sued.

You have a partial point, but say they print those cartoons you speak of in Denmark. Are the blacks in the US going to have a boycott and send death threats?

We're crossing international borders here. The Muslims of the world are trying to impose there will on what the rest of us can say in out own countries. Clearly this is about freedom of the press on a worldwide scale.

 

[imported_hscorpio]

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: hscorpio

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: hscorpio



I agree, its not serious criticism at all, they are just cartoons... satire. But what if it was a scathing essay on the leaders of islam, written by a muslim sorta like martin luthers deal. The response would be the same death threats and all. Should europe really wait for something like that to happen before it stands up for freedom of speech?

Now is a perfect time to stand up for free speech given that the suppossed blasphemy is in the form of cartoons drawn by non-muslims. If a strong stance is taken on the right to print silly cartoons, then perhaps the door will be open later for the opportunity to actually even have some responsible criticism without fear of every ME leader issuing a fatwa.

Heh, why don't you stand up for free speech in the US first. Maybe major news paper here should start printing cartoons on black taking social handouts and latino jumping over fences on the border. According to you, news paper have the right to print cartoons making fun of entire race/religion in anyway they see fit right? And it is a problem in the US with more black living under poverty than the rest of the population, and more latino being illigal immigrants isn't it? It is all constructive criticism right?

Who cares about generalization, who cares about sterotyping and who cares about respecting the other race and religion right? As long as your group have your fun and get your superiority complex satisfied, it's all well and good right?

WTF are you talking about? Do you ever watch tv in the US? Satire of religion, race, economics, ... everything, goes on in the US. Freedom of speech is still kicking in the US despite attempts to squelch it.

Yeah right, show me one big media that's printing stuff like that and not resulted in somebody getting fired or getting sued.

Text