P&N Religion Poll

[JohnOfSheffield]

It does not, and I posted a link showing such. Here is the post, to help you out.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=32918242&postcount=46

Depends where you are at in Israel, in some settler areas and in most of Jerusalem you do NOT want them to know that you are a Messianic Jew, they will spit on you.

In some areas you'll be glad to get out of town unharmed. It's gotten a lot worse over the past decade too, in the 90's it wasn't a problem at all, nowadays any church built in these areas is deconstructed in a day.

But if you think that is bad, try telling them you are an atheist.

 

[cybrsage]

HAH, i'm Atheist, English AND a Jew!

See, that is the thing, these two are diametrically opposed. Nothing Jesus said violates the Torah.

Embracing judaism and christianism will forcibly put the follower of such a dual pratice at odd with both of the religious currents;
moreover given the historical grievances between the two cosmogony
despite their common origin.

The historical grievances are due to the perversion of Christianity by those in the past. It is something which, hopefully, can be kept in the past.

There is nothing in the Brit Chadishah (New Testament) that is at odds with the Tanakh (Old Testament). Jesus did not come to destroy The Law, but to complete it. When the President signs a bill into law, the law is complete, but it does not suddenly cease to be in effect or in existance. Jesus paid the penalty for violating The Law, but did not remove The Law itself.

The problem most Jews have with Messianic Judaism is rooted in Rabbinics, not in the Tanakh...and the Rabinnics are rooted in the horrors of the past visited upon the Jews by Christians (as you said).

Also, as an aside, some think that Messianic Judaism means Goyim must follow The Law also, but it does not. The Law never applied to non-Jews, and still does not. They are allowed to follow The Law by personal choice, but there is no requirement to do so.

 

[cybrsage]

Depends where you are at in Israel, in some settler areas and in most of Jerusalem you do NOT want them to know that you are a Messianic Jew, they will spit on you.

In some areas you'll be glad to get out of town unharmed. It's gotten a lot worse over the past decade too, in the 90's it wasn't a problem at all, nowadays any church built in these areas is deconstructed in a day.

But if you think that is bad, try telling them you are an atheist.

Understood, and agreed, though that is slowly changing for the better in most areas (and for the worse in some). It is the natural growing pains of a new nation...I think almost all nations had something like this in their past.

But as a note, atheists are actually treated better...you can be shown the errors of your ways (generic you, not personal you) and realize your mistake...you are simply ignorant of the truth. Messianics are seen as attempting to destroy souls...a form of apostasy (but only by the Othradox).

 

[cybrsage]

Here in lies the problem.

IF your god comes to your spiritual leader in a vision and he declares it on to the people morality is broken by the whim of a man.

Only if what this man says is not true.

IF GOD wants me to do something GOD will tell me . I don't need a liar to tell me . FACT!!

So you think you are so powerful that you can demand God do what YOU say God must do? Hubris, they name is Nemesis 1. You then go on to make an unsupported assumption and pretend it is fact...

Lots of fail in this post.

 

[Abwx]

Seems to me that jewish religious leaders doesnt follow the thorah but
rather what they think is its interpretation , i.e , the talmud.

I wont go to long in such a debate , but in short , they have through
the centuries bended the old testament as a tool to divinize the jewish
people and claimed it as the only really human group.

Be agree or not with this , but to this day , some judaic leaders are the
only religious representants in the world who question the humanity
of other religious group.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Understood, and agreed, though that is slowly changing for the better in most areas (and for the worse in some). It is the natural growing pains of a new nation...I think almost all nations had something like this in their past.

But as a note, atheists are actually treated better...you can be shown the errors of your ways (generic you, not personal you) and realize your mistake...you are simply ignorant of the truth. Messianics are seen as attempting to destroy souls...a form of apostasy (but only by the Othradox).

You haven't spent much time in Israel, have you?

While Christians are decently treated in most areas except settler areas and Jerusalem, atheists are mostly shunned.

I don't discuss faith while in Israel, i know what the nation stands for and while i would fight to my death in defense of it, i also know that most people living there are not like me but they do accept me because of heritage.

Don't worry too much about it, just don't go proselytizing and you'll be fine.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

WIR WOLLEN DIE JUDEN AUSROTEN

Yeah, we know you do... now piss off.

 

[cybrsage]

You haven't spent much time in Israel, have you?

While Christians are decently treated in most areas except settler areas and Jerusalem, atheists are mostly shunned.

I don't discuss faith while in Israel, i know what the nation stands for and while i would fight to my death in defense of it, i also know that most people living there are not like me but they do accept me because of heritage.

Don't worry too much about it, just don't go proselytizing and you'll be fine.

Oh, I was specifically talking about Messianic Judaism. The Ultra Orthadox have actually planted a bomb inside a Purim candy box and left it on the doorstep of a kid, set to go off when the candy box was opened. By only the grace of God he survived (though his house was demolished by the blast) and he fully recovered from the explosion.

 

[Abwx]

My ass is where my mouth is

:biggrin:

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

I love seeing Jewish children killed by my friends. :biggrin:

You're a sick sick retard.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Oh, I was specifically talking about Messianic Judaism. The Ultra Orthadox have actually planted a bomb inside a Purim candy box and left it on the doorstep of a kid, set to go off when the candy box was opened. By only the grace of God he survived (though his house was demolished by the blast) and he fully recovered from the explosion.

They are as insane as their Islamist brothers, they should just all move into a piece of land we set up for them and kill each other as best they can...

I remember that.

It made me sick to my stomach.

 

[palehorse]

I consider myself a Deist... with a twist.

Belief in God based only on reason and nature is Deism.

This short article comes close to describing the "twist":
http://astrostar.hubpages.com/hub/Energy-The-link-between-God-and-science

Energy: The link between God and science

Why Does Prayer Work? Let's Take A Look...

God = Energy

Energy: Energy can not be created nor destroyed. It always was and always has been. Any form of energy can be transformed into another form.

Everything in the Universe is Energy. A rock, wall, car, piece of wood, money, and any other seemingly solid material is made up of molecules that are vibrating at a very high speed, causing the object to appear solid. However, they are very much not solid, but a movement of molecules. Everything in the Universe vibrates and emits a frequency, including thoughts.

A Thought is Energy. A Thought has a biochemical property, which means it has a frequency. With technology, we are able to measure a Thought. If you have a Thought in your mind, particularly one you think repeatedly, you are emitting that frquency on a consistant basis. Thus, sending vibrations out into the Universe.

Prayer: A form of religious practice that seeks to activate a volitional connection to some greater power in the Universe through deliberate intentional practice.

We often think of prayer as asking God for something, but prayer can also be a conversation with God or with the Saints. Just as we cannot hold a conversation with another person unless he can hear us, the very act of praying is an implicit recognition of the presence of God or the saints here with us. And in praying, we strengthen that recognition of the presence of God, which draws us closer to "Him". That is why the Church recommends that we pray frequently and make prayer an important part of our everyday lives. (about.com)

When we pray, we are communicating with God by focusing our thoughts and intention. We can also say that we are sending vibrational frequencies into the Universe.

The Universal Law of Attraction: Like attracts like. The Universe responds to our thoughts and emotions.

Whether from a religous or scientific perspective, the result is the same.

In religion: We pray to God, "He" answers.

In science: Our thoughts send out vibrations, and the Universal Law of Attraction responds.

It's the same meaning, just different terminology.

There are many organized religions which vary in detail, however, generally the substance is the same. Most of them recognize that the World was created by an energetic being.

Since we were all created from the same source, humans, animals, plants, trees, oceans, planets, stars, and everything else are energetically connected. We are all connected. Studies have shown the amazing power of prayer, and in fact that healings manifest quicker when a group of people prays for a person. Again, that can be interchanged with Energy. The more energy being focused, the more vibrations being emitted, the more powerful the result. If we are all connected, then my prayers can affect you, and yours can affect him, and his can affect hers, and so on... We have healing (energy, God) power within ourselves.

E=MC² (Albert Einstein) The mass of a body is a measure of its energy content. Energy always exhibits mass in whatever form the energy takes. [E=energy, M=mass, C=speed of light] (everything is energy)

In researching some religous facts, (I was raised Catholic but have chosen to embark my own spiritual path, so I had to do some research on this...) I found that: God most definitely listens to prayers, answers prayers, and moves in response to prayers. I thought this was interesting, because if we use "Energy" in the place of "God", it does not change the message. "Energy listens to our prayers (thoughts/emotions), answers prayers (energetic vibrations), and moves in response to prayers (as we set our intentions).

So, how does prayer work? Focused intent creates vibrations in which Energy/God responds.

 

[cybrsage]

They are as insane as their Islamist brothers, they should just all move into a piece of land we set up for them and kill each other as best they can...

I remember that.

It made me sick to my stomach.

I agree. If I was in charge there, the punishment for such crimes (and those of the stone throwing and spitting, etc done recently) would be banishment to the Gaza Strip.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

I consider myself a Deist... with a twist:
http://astrostar.hubpages.com/hub/Energy-The-link-between-God-and-science

I can actually explain that to you if you want me to.

While not denying the possibility, i don't believe in a god because i see no evidence for one and basic physics goes against it too.

And your link is filled with conjecture and portion packed pseudo science that shoves things into pockets where it doesn't fit at all.

You want evidence of the power of prayer? Try praying for an amputee, lets do that, everyone around the world, if the leg grows back you have absolute evidence that prayer does work.

No? No one wants to do that?

Energy doesn't heal anyone at all, not unless their wounds need to be cauterized in which case it does.

The body and it's chemicals may react to certain events though, hence the placebo effect.

 

[cybrsage]

Not to shift this into a "does prayer work" discussion, but God requires us to accept Him by faith. If He allowed a scientific study to prove prayer works (by growing back the limb), faith would no longer be possible.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

I agree. If I was in charge there, the punishment for such crimes (and those of the stone throwing and spitting, etc done recently) would be banishment to the Gaza Strip.

I'm for that.

Still think you got it wrong with maternal Jews and Paternal Jews though...

My citizenship was automatic, my childrens were automatic but not because i'm Jewish but because i provided their mothers certificate of birth.

My heritage was of no importance.

 

[Abwx]

You're a sick sick retard.

So say the guy whose religious councellor are Motorhead..:biggrin:

Although in concerts they did quite well , but when i saw
them it was their best years , though....

 

[cybrsage]

I'm for that.

Still think you got it wrong with maternal Jews and Paternal Jews though...

My citizenship was automatic, my childrens were automatic but not because i'm Jewish but because i provided their mothers certificate of birth.

My heritage was of no importance.

If the mother is Jewish, they are automatically Jews. It only gets into the strange point due to the courts ruling that a Grandmother also can pass Jewishness to the grandchild as well.

I have yet to apply for citizenship in Israel. My problem lies with the destruction of so many records in Germany due to bombings by the allies in WW2. I need to find a good geneology search site for Judaism.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Not to shift this into a "does prayer work" discussion, but God requires us to accept Him by faith. If He allowed a scientific study to prove prayer works (by growing back the limb), faith would no longer be possible.

I know and i expected it.

It's just that when someone says "prayer has been proven to work" they are just wrong.

They know it, i know it and if they don't want it to be proven then FUCKING STOP SAYING IT IS PROVEN.

It's not proven, it cannot be proven, mythology remains mythology and those who believe in the three legged devil or some Judaic vampire or Mithras or Heros who both were born on the 25'th, had 12 disciples, were crucified and rose from the dead after three days hundreds of years before Jesus did the same feat are just new believers of a very old story.

You believe it or you don't, i believe that reality is real.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

If the mother is Jewish, they are automatically Jews. It only gets into the strange point due to the courts ruling that a Grandmother also can pass Jewishness to the grandchild as well.

I have yet to apply for citizenship in Israel. My problem lies with the destruction of so many records in Germany due to bombings by the allies in WW2. I need to find a good geneology search site for Judaism.

Not really, they'd be parternal Jews and most are not given citizenship any longer, loads of Russian and Romanian parternal Jews were discarded during the last 3 years.

If your're not a maternal Jew you'll need someone who either lives in Israel and is a close relative or someone who has served in the IDF to vouch for you.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

It's good to see that JoS (WoS) is working hard on getting another vacation in another thread.

 

[palehorse]

I can actually explain that to you if you want me to.

While not denying the possibility, i don't believe in a god because i see no evidence for one and basic physics goes against it too.

And your link is filled with conjecture and portion packed pseudo science that shoves things into pockets where it doesn't fit at all.

You want evidence of the power of prayer? Try praying for an amputee, lets do that, everyone around the world, if the leg grows back you have absolute evidence that prayer does work.

No? No one wants to do that?

Energy doesn't heal anyone at all, not unless their wounds need to be cauterized in which case it does.

The body and it's chemicals may react to certain events though, hence the placebo effect.

I respect your beliefs.

I've spent decades thinking about my own use of the word "god" to describe the energy that forms each and every aspect of our universe -- including a personal quest to understand the most modern and complex theories in physics -- as well as my own use of "prayer" to TRY to interact with said energy.

I never said whether or not I believe or disbelieve the ability of such prayers to manifest themselves into something as tangible, dramatic, or just plain ridiculous as "healing" a lost limb. If it's possible, I do know that such manipulation of energy, using minds/thoughts as the only tools, is well beyond current KNOWN human capabilities.

However, do I believe that thoughts have SOME observible and tangible effect on the universe? Absolutely. Their mere existence in an observable and definable physical form mandates that they have some effect.

So, while I respect your interpretation of this concept, I certainly don't need it "explained" to me. I'm good to go bro!

PS: the concept and definitions for "reality" are worthy of debate as well.

 

[Abwx]

Not to shift this into a "does prayer work" discussion, but God requires us to accept Him by faith. If He allowed a scientific study to prove prayer works (by growing back the limb), faith would no longer be possible.

Faith is rare in fact and few people will pray without second thoughts..

Recently i was in my village in Algeria , and as i was walking near the
local mosque people just exited from it after performing their prayers.

A discussion started and as one was saying the same things as you,
i responded that in fact most of those in front of me were corrupted
and were seeking for some rewards from god otherwise they
wouldnt even be there.

I then engaged in an imaginary discussion between
two people , one saying to the other :
"hey , the muezzin is calling for the prayer , let s
go praying , after what we can return performing
our steals and grabs"...

I think that for a human it s impossible to have trust in god
without second thoughts as it is our nature and we can do
nothing about it , it s biological , and in this respect , muslims ,
jews or christians are exactly the same , whatever their say...

 

[cybrsage]

I know and i expected it.

It's just that when someone says "prayer has been proven to work" they are just wrong.

They know it, i know it and if they don't want it to be proven then FUCKING STOP SAYING IT IS PROVEN.

Agreed, fully and completely. It has not been proven to work, never will be, and cannot be. I personaly believe it does work, but not always in the way I want it to work, nor in the time frame I want it to work in.

Prayer is a request. The request always works, but the results, not always...the results are up to God.

 

[cybrsage]

Faith is rare in fact and few people will pray without second thoughts..

Recently i was in my village in Algeria , and as i was walking near the
local mosque people just exited from it after performing their prayers.

A discussion started and as one was saying the same things as you,
i responded that in fact most of those in front of me were corrupted
and were seeking for some rewards from god otherwise they
wouldnt even be there.

I then engaged in an imaginary discussion between
two people , one saying to the other :
"hey , the muezzin is calling for the prayer , let s
go praying , after what we can return performing
our steals and grabs"...

I think that for a human it s impossible to have trust in god
without second thoughts as it is our nature and we can do
nothing about it , it s biological , and in this respect , muslims ,
jews or christians are exactly the same , whatever their say...

Agreed, we all do have some selfishness involved in everything, but God understands that. It really is a constant struggle to accept the things God causes or allows to happen even when they are not what I want to happen. The more I accept it, though, the easier it is to execpt the next one and the happier I am. I accept the things I cannot change.