** Official Star Craft 2 Multiplayer Thread **

[eLiu]

^ what he said. I should clarify that my comments re scouting for a timing window were not necessarily related to that specific game. Very interesting to watch, I thought the superfast expo was very risky when I first saw it.

Yeah I thought that too. My guess goes something like this: when you reach the pro level, you learn to trust your "game sense" to tell you when it's OK to take risks... and when an apparently risky maneuver isn't risky at all. Like in that game, I think the scariest part was going gas first. After Gretorp's early push, neither side had beans, and I suppose expansion was "safe" in the sense that while you have no defense, the enemy has no offense, haha. Granted I'd be too scared to try shit like that...

Also, similar to the chess world, I'd bet the best SC2 players watch the competition's games--get a feel for what kind of openings/styles to expect & prepare accordingly. I've definitely seen games where one player prepared some kind of opening novelty (e.g., birth of cauthonluck cheese).

 

[imaheadcase]

It was #171, Gretorp vs Fenix, TvT.

Also for the people complaining about worker rushes, please post a replay. This is just not feasible as a 1v1 strategy; by the time they reach you, you should have numerical superiority. If you lose, you're doing something wrong. Use your superior numbers by getting all/most drones involved & focus fire. In team games, it's a little more viable (really only on maps w/common team spawns) b/c the cheesers can gang up on you.

Well it is possible. I made 2 units before his workers got to me, yet they still won. No matter how i fight them. micro them, or whatever.

They have a small range + shields so its simply a matter of them kiting me killing me. yet i have to fight back, but yet i can't make more units because of it.

here is "game".
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=IWP1NZKZ

I'm no expert or anything, but it seems there should be some easier counter to this in place. Focus firing on one of his simply does not work, because of how they can clump into me whiles others "zap" me behind others.

I'm all ears..

 

[Praxis1452]

Well it is possible. I made 2 units before his workers got to me, yet they still won. No matter how i fight them. micro them, or whatever.

They have a small range + shields so its simply a matter of them kiting me killing me. yet i have to fight back, but yet i can't make more units because of it.

here is "game".
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=IWP1NZKZ

I'm no expert or anything, but it seems there should be some easier counter to this in place. Focus firing on one of his simply does not work, because of how they can clump into me whiles others "zap" me behind others.

I'm all ears..

If you have numerical superiority, you don't want to focus fire. It's a bad idea. Just get the surround and they can't kite you. In order for you to do that you should click move a point past them. Then a-move. They will perform surround and you will win. If they only have a couple probes left. They can't do shit. There are very few people that can micro 3-4 probes simultaneously and do it so that they don't take like any damage.

 

[AznAnarchy99]

How bad are bronze and silver players?

I ask because, well my friend and I are casual players. We arent terrible, having played a lot of SC1 back in the day, but we arent fussed about particular build orders or micro. Last night we played a placement 2v2 (I think?) and lost because one of the other guys was protoss and used dark templar.

Anyway.... right now both of us are of the opinion that we dont want to play SC2 multiplayer because even the bronze leaguers, suck though they might, take it very seriously. Is that true? or could we play in bronze and silver league and have a good time?

I mean there will always people who take the game too seriously but from what I see from Bronze/Silver is that most dont even have what I think is the "basic" stuff from the classes.

Basically how my 1s games go is overlord/worker scout, oooh P/T didnt wall, zerg workers win/

 

[eLiu]

If you have numerical superiority, you don't want to focus fire. It's a bad idea. Just get the surround and they can't kite you. In order for you to do that you should click move a point past them. Then a-move. They will perform surround and you will win. If they only have a couple probes left. They can't do shit. There are very few people that can micro 3-4 probes simultaneously and do it so that they don't take like any damage.

I think it's still beneficial to focus fire 'locally'. Like if 2 or 3 drones can attack 1 probe, then do it. Definitely having all 8 or whatever drones attack 1 probe is a horrible, horrible idea. Though I guess thinking about this more, even local focus fire is dangerous if you aren't really on top of the micro, b/c if the attacked probe is retreated, you giving chase is probably a bad plan.

But yeah, the surround is much more important.

 

[linjy2]

Also for the people complaining about worker rushes, please post a replay. This is just not feasible as a 1v1 strategy; by the time they reach you, you should have numerical superiority. If you lose, you're doing something wrong. Use your superior numbers by getting all/most drones involved & focus fire. In team games, it's a little more viable (really only on maps w/common team spawns) b/c the cheesers can gang up on you.

i can tell u i won scv rush 4-1 out of the times i tried it and placed platinum. I did this when I was bored. Its also a planned strat. I picked only 1v1 maps. certain maps with short distance. always pick terran since supply caps at 11. I would build 10 scv and head out. leave the 11 scv to mine. success rate vs protoss and zergs has been 100%.

 

[linjy2]

So, I decided to do my placements for 1v1 tonight. I won 3 and lost 2. I've mostly been playing with a Barracks being started at 9, supply depot at 10 and usually using an early marine push (usually not against Terran).

here is my strat when there is a single entrance and a ramp. i do depot at 10 then barrack once that scv is done building the depot and bring a second scv to build the second depot before the scout even gets to come into my base. By then i also have a refinery down and pumping my first marine. Even if the zerg 8 pool me. I can hold it with one marine and repair. even if they 6 pool me, my wall is sealed and my first marine would be just about popping out.

for the person that mentioned PVP 1v1. I think if you are scared of zealot rush, then go forge first then gateway. that should hold a non stop zealot wave.

my 1v1 TVT matches has all been first to banshee races so far. Success rate for me is 100%. Fast tech to banshee. throw a bunker up for 4 marines during the process. build a helion for support. by then i have 2 banshee flying to the enemies base. by my third banshee i have cloak researched. by my 4th banshee i have 1 viking to kill the enemy banshee in my base. and then i send in tanks and marines to finish their base.

I hate TVT matches but i been winning them all. Only one I been losing to so far are TvP.
TVZ matches are instant win for me. just mass marines/maruad. GG to them.

killerchobo.620 to see my stats.

 

[SpicyCurry]

for the person that mentioned PVP 1v1. I think if you are scared of zealot rush, then go forge first then gateway. that should hold a non stop zealot wave.

Dear god, do not do this. If I ever scouted my opponent going Forge first in PvP, I would just think auto-win, especially if I see him throw cannons up in his main (as opposed to trying an offensive cannon cheese). The reason is that once a competant player scouts a forge first, they will forgo their Zealot rush and either a) focus completely on tech without building units, or b) expand. Since cannons provide no offensive threat, you don't have to build any military units until they throw up 2-3 Gateways.

Personally, I haven't had trouble fending off a 2-gate Zealot push while going Cyber Core. If I scout a 2-gate and I'm doing a Cyber Core build, I do the following:

-Build a Zealot when the Cybernetics Core is halfway finished. The Zealot should finish at the same time as the Core. You can adjust it accordingly using Chronoboost if needed.
-Build a 2nd Gateway once your first Stalker is in production. Make sure to permanently Chronoboost this Gateway and build nothing but Stalkers from it.
-DO NOT BUILD THE SECOND ASSIMILATOR UNTIL AFTER YOU'VE DEFENDED. You don't need that much gas when you're fending off this rush, and it's imperative to have as many Probes on minerals as possible.
-From here on, it's up to your micro skills with the Stalkers to fend off the attack. Stalkers have very fast movement speed, so you must run the Stalker away from any Zealots attacking it. The goal here is to stall until more Stalkers come out, since 4 Stalkers can take on 8 Zealots if you micro and kite them.
-If your opponent is good, he will target your Probes with 1 or 2 Zealots. You have to respond accordingly by microing those individual Probes away.

The ultimate goal with fending off this attack is building up a squad of Stalkers. With micro, Stalkers are much much better than Zealots (before Charge gets researched). Once you have your Stalker squad and have fended off the first attack, you force your opponent to be on the defensive. From here, you can expand to gain an economic advantage or tech. Either way, you've secured yourself an advantage for the midgame.

 

[Aikouka]

I have pretty serious doubts about the efficacy of building rax at 9 supply. You are most certainly cutting a significant number of SCVs to make this happen. And in some sense, those early SCVs are the most important ones, since they gather the longest. Compared to a more typical 10 supply, 11-12 rax, how much more quickly do you get marines out? If the idea is to push early, how big is your army w/each technique (or better, your army vs a pro's army using a "standard" build) at several time-stamps after your rax goes up?

I just tried it, but the only problem is that I wasn't keeping my build order close to similar as I would've preferred. But the thing that it showed me is that both builds are very similar resource-wise; however, they differ in the point in which you get your first combat unit....

RAX -> SD
18 SCVs, 5 Marines, 1 MULE ... 25/27 Food ... 5:04/20:55
spending: eco-1700 , tech-550, Army-300 ... 2550
resources: 85m, 216g

First marine at 2:34
walled off at 3:42

SD -> RAX
21 SCVs, 4 Marines ... 27/27 Food ... 5:00/17:57
spending: eco-1850 , Tech-300, Army-250 .. 2400
resources: 230m, 496g

First marine at 3:12
walled off at 3:24

It wasn't perfect science due to me not adhering to a specific build very well, but the biggest thing that I'm looking at is the time in which you can get your first marine. Rax to SD has a 40 second advantage on SD to Rax and the wall-off times were somewhat arbitrary as I could've built it earlier, but I think I avoided it since I was building a Comsat anyway.

EDIT:

Although, I have no idea how quick a 6pool gets Zerglings to your base .

 

[Majes]

This is the replay vs diamond zerg I mentioned a few days ago. Has some nice moves.

http://screplays.com/replays/majes/8240#comment-2415

The second replay is another TvZ match-up where his early expo forces me to slow-play the match.

http://screplays.com/replays/majes/8242


Please watch and enjoy! Let me know what you think of my play!

 

[Glitchny]

I just tried it, but the only problem is that I wasn't keeping my build order close to similar as I would've preferred. But the thing that it showed me is that both builds are very similar resource-wise; however, they differ in the point in which you get your first combat unit....

RAX -> SD
18 SCVs, 5 Marines, 1 MULE ... 25/27 Food ... 5:04/20:55
spending: eco-1700 , tech-550, Army-300 ... 2550
resources: 85m, 216g

First marine at 2:34
walled off at 3:42

SD -> RAX
21 SCVs, 4 Marines ... 27/27 Food ... 5:00/17:57
spending: eco-1850 , Tech-300, Army-250 .. 2400
resources: 230m, 496g

First marine at 3:12
walled off at 3:24

It wasn't perfect science due to me not adhering to a specific build very well, but the biggest thing that I'm looking at is the time in which you can get your first marine. Rax to SD has a 40 second advantage on SD to Rax and the wall-off times were somewhat arbitrary as I could've built it earlier, but I think I avoided it since I was building a Comsat anyway.

EDIT:

Although, I have no idea how quick a 6pool gets Zerglings to your base .

I go 10 SD->12rax->13gas most games and only wall off against zerg(prob 80% of the time). I send the scv that built my first SD to scout as soon as the SD finishes and that is generally enough time to see the 6 pool coming. If I scout a 6pool I drop a bunker to cover my mineral line and proceed from there. Generally the first wave of zerglings will be being morphed in when my scout gets to their base when they 6 pool (on a 1v1).

I've also not run into a lot of banshee rushes so far, the few that did try it I scouted the starport+techlab and had a turret + viking ready so it was a non-issue.

 

[linjy2]

Dear god, do not do this. If I ever scouted my opponent going Forge first in PvP, I would just think auto-win, especially if I see him throw cannons up in his main (as opposed to trying an offensive cannon cheese). The reason is that once a competant player scouts a forge first, they will forgo their Zealot rush and either a) focus completely on tech without building units, or b) expand. Since cannons provide no offensive threat, you don't have to build any military units until they throw up 2-3 Gateways.

Personally, I haven't had trouble fending off a 2-gate Zealot push while going Cyber Core. If I scout a 2-gate and I'm doing a Cyber Core build, I do the following:

-Build a Zealot when the Cybernetics Core is halfway finished. The Zealot should finish at the same time as the Core. You can adjust it accordingly using Chronoboost if needed.
-Build a 2nd Gateway once your first Stalker is in production. Make sure to permanently Chronoboost this Gateway and build nothing but Stalkers from it.
-DO NOT BUILD THE SECOND ASSIMILATOR UNTIL AFTER YOU'VE DEFENDED. You don't need that much gas when you're fending off this rush, and it's imperative to have as many Probes on minerals as possible.
-From here on, it's up to your micro skills with the Stalkers to fend off the attack. Stalkers have very fast movement speed, so you must run the Stalker away from any Zealots attacking it. The goal here is to stall until more Stalkers come out, since 4 Stalkers can take on 8 Zealots if you micro and kite them.
-If your opponent is good, he will target your Probes with 1 or 2 Zealots. You have to respond accordingly by microing those individual Probes away.

The ultimate goal with fending off this attack is building up a squad of Stalkers. With micro, Stalkers are much much better than Zealots (before Charge gets researched). Once you have your Stalker squad and have fended off the first attack, you force your opponent to be on the defensive. From here, you can expand to gain an economic advantage or tech. Either way, you've secured yourself an advantage for the midgame.

i think the person that questioned it was only bronze/silver, but obviously cannons wouldnt work against a platinum/diamond. if i went forge first i would of cheesed or fast expanded or have this badass choke with a cannon and few zealots

 

[beginner99]

Dear god, do not do this. If I ever scouted my opponent going Forge first in PvP, I would just think auto-win, especially if I see him throw cannons up in his main (as opposed to trying an offensive cannon cheese). The reason is that once a competant player scouts a forge first, they will forgo their Zealot rush and either a) focus completely on tech without building units, or b) expand. Since cannons provide no offensive threat, you don't have to build any military units until they throw up 2-3 Gateways.

agree. Actually just had a game like this and instantly expanded whil ehe wasted 750+ mins for forge and cannons.

Personally, I haven't had trouble fending off a 2-gate Zealot push while going Cyber Core. If I scout a 2-gate and I'm doing a Cyber Core build, I do the following:
...

Not sure if it works but you need to micro like crazy while the rushers doesn't need to do much.
With your build you will have 1 zealot and 1 stalker vs.my at least 4 zealots or if I rush out earlier it's 3v1. I will just kill your nexus if you try to micro probes and stalker. You can't micro your nexus away and you have no chance getting back into the game if it falls.
If I don't succeed you still had to pull away your workers for almost 1 min to help kill the zealots.
(killing the nexus is actually a strategy from fastest maps on sc1)
Another option depending on your build is to kill the pylon supporting your gateways. You won't be able to produce anything ->gg

I won't say it's impossible to beat but it's way easier to just rush yourself than microing around like crazy. Because rushing needs no skill.

 

[imaheadcase]

I think it's still beneficial to focus fire 'locally'. Like if 2 or 3 drones can attack 1 probe, then do it. Definitely having all 8 or whatever drones attack 1 probe is a horrible, horrible idea. Though I guess thinking about this more, even local focus fire is dangerous if you aren't really on top of the micro, b/c if the attacked probe is retreated, you giving chase is probably a bad plan.

But yeah, the surround is much more important.

Ok still does not win it. Like i said, they have range. I can "run" away, but they still zap me as i'm doing it.

Anytime i see the line of probes coming into base, i think "ok i'll try this thing this time instead".

 

[DangerAardvark]

Well it is possible. I made 2 units before his workers got to me, yet they still won. No matter how i fight them. micro them, or whatever.

They have a small range + shields so its simply a matter of them kiting me killing me. yet i have to fight back, but yet i can't make more units because of it.

here is "game".
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=IWP1NZKZ

I'm no expert or anything, but it seems there should be some easier counter to this in place. Focus firing on one of his simply does not work, because of how they can clump into me whiles others "zap" me behind others.

I'm all ears..

That was just mis-micro on your part. You ran your drones south into a clump for some reason, giving the probes free dps time and a surround, then it looks like you tried to focus-fire a probe instead of attack moving and your drones stopped attacking once the probe was dead.

 

[eLiu]

i can tell u i won scv rush 4-1 out of the times i tried it and placed platinum. I did this when I was bored. Its also a planned strat. I picked only 1v1 maps. certain maps with short distance. always pick terran since supply caps at 11. I would build 10 scv and head out. leave the 11 scv to mine. success rate vs protoss and zergs has been 100%.

Haha, that's pretty hilarious. Along similar lines, my favorite, favorite cheese is the planetary fortress rush. Oh it's so delicious. Anyway, success/failure in your placement matches is hardly a measure of the quality of a strategy My point is that the SCV rush is counter-able, even if you have to practice (through losing) a few times first. If it were dominant, strong, or even feasible, we'd see it at the pro-level.

Also, super-noob question: how exactly do I look up your profile? :/ Can I do it from the battlenet website or do I have to go from in-game?

Aikouka: Interesting. I'll have a look at what my opener looks like & report back. I can't till late tomorrow (at best) b/c my computer sucks too much & I play at my friend's place, lol. But as a first thought, with extra minerals, you could've set up a 2nd barracks and/or orbital command in the 2nd case. Other than that, I agree with what Glitchny wrote.

imaheadcase: SCVs/drones/probes all have the *same* range: it's the game's melee range, reported as 0.1 by teamliquid's wiki. In SC2, damage isn't dealt continuously throughout the attack animation. (This actually lead to an exploit w/void rays during the beta--look up "Fazing.") So if you move out of melee range, they cannot attack you. What you're seeing is a result of moving away after the attack occured. Also, what DangerAardvark said.

 

[imaheadcase]

That was just mis-micro on your part. You ran your drones south into a clump for some reason, giving the probes free dps time and a surround, then it looks like you tried to focus-fire a probe instead of attack moving and your drones stopped attacking once the probe was dead.

yes like i said, x3, i tried multi different ways to counter it to no avail.

 

[rcpratt]

I haven't even logged on in a week. I feel like getting to diamond was enough satisfaction and now I don't care.

Someone say something to bring me back.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

I haven't even logged on in a week. I feel like getting to diamond was enough satisfaction and now I don't care.

Someone say something to bring me back.

detroit is the shithole of america.

 

[DrunkenSano]

I'm proud to admit I'm a crappy Bronze player (never played SC1 and recently bought SC2). I think the biggest problem I have is getting use to the fast game speed that is multiplayer. I am still working on my problem where I focus too much on gathering resources instead of creating units (In the game debriefing, it tells me I have a lot of unspent resources).

 

[tedrodai]

I haven't even logged on in a week. I feel like getting to diamond was enough satisfaction and now I don't care.

Someone say something to bring me back.

Quit while you're ahead!

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

so your opponent can see a big white circle outline of your sensor tower's range.
so now he not only knows you have one up, but can dodge it as well?
what kind of retarded shit is that?

 

[Ika]

so your opponent can see a big white circle outline of your sensor tower's range.
so now he not only knows you have one up, but can dodge it as well?
what kind of retarded shit is that?

put it at choke points and you won't be able to avoid it. also it stops people from sending stuff like observers in to peek on your base. go around the big circle? take time off their rush and die to the tanks you got out while they were going around.

 

[Glitchny]

so your opponent can see a big white circle outline of your sensor tower's range.
so now he not only knows you have one up, but can dodge it as well?
what kind of retarded shit is that?

If you're playing bad players you can place them at alternate spawn locations to trick them into thinking you have a base over there and then when you see their units move towards it you can hit them on the other side.

Also by the time you can build one any good player already knows where you are. They are incredibly useful to place midfield to watch when your opponent is moving his army out or to see probes moving towards a possible expansion etc.

I'm proud to admit I'm a crappy Bronze player (never played SC1 and recently bought SC2). I think the biggest problem I have is getting use to the fast game speed that is multiplayer. I am still working on my problem where I focus too much on gathering resources instead of creating units (In the game debriefing, it tells me I have a lot of unspent resources).

yea it takes awhile to get the hang of keeping your economy going and building units at the same time. A lot of the time I will spam out multiple barracks if I find myself with a ton of money, they are cheap and I can get an army super fast. Or you can spam a bunch of Plantary fortresses for defense or just expand like crazy.

 

[rcpratt]

detroit is the shithole of america.

Original, but not really doin' it for me...