** Official Star Craft 2 Multiplayer Thread **

[Ika]

Is there a build to get out enough marines to hold off a ling rush? I usually play 3v3 random teams. I can usually just wall off and the rush goes elsewhere. If a partner is zerg, he's probably going to get picked on. Most guys seem ok 1v1 but when 2 sets lings rush one, he'll need help.

spine crawler?

 

[imaheadcase]

I just played a awesome game, I'm only Bronze league, but I was Protoss and he was terran, I won simply because he ran out of resources. lol

He did a battleship attack, lots of them, but i simply rushed out anti-air units and killed them all. I killed his expansion early so he did not have time to expand. I killed half his main base, he killed ALL my main base except for one small one with photon cannons surrounded it.. they finished off all his BC so he left game! rofl I was like wtf just happened i thought i was going to lose.

good times
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=R22IV8AI if you want to watch it

 

[linjy2]

Is there a way to see how many hours you have spent in-game?

only when checking the match history it tells you the play time. not sure about during the game.

 

[SpicyCurry]

Hm so imagine the following situation...
setup: T1vT2 on steppes of war.
T1 goes 3 rax (2 tech+1react). T2 is going 2rax+fact, moving to siege tanks.

After getting ~10-12 units (marine+maruader), T1 moves out against T2 (and T1 expands), finding a sieged tank + half as many infantry at the ramp to the natural. Kills them, pokes the main ramp to see siege tanks firing from behind the wall & retreats. T1 realizes he was slow getting a factory up, but is moving toward siege tanks of his own.

~2 minutes pass before T2 moves out. T1 left a small marine/marauder force at T2's natural which is quickly overrun. T1 gets sieged tanks just in time to defend his main (natural expansion has to lift off & scoot away). T2 sneaks a medivac into T1's main mineral line during his push, taking the win.

Thoughts on what T1 could have done differently? Clearly being more watchful of medivac drops is important... but for overal strategy, is it just a matter of better scouting to know that the enemy is getting tanks, so be ready to respond w/your own tanks or maybe banshees? When T1 knocked out T2's lead army & was camped outside T2's main ramp, should T1 have thrown up bunkers? Or would it have been too easy to use siege tanks to pick those off...

Basically the situation was that T1 had an economic advantage (had expanded, higher income; even had ~10% more scv's before the expansion) and a slightly bigger army. T2 had a tech advantage. And T1 couldn't survive long enough to convert.

After you killed his initial army, you should be more on the defensive since 1) you have an expansion going up and he doesn't, and 2) you have a bigger army. In the 2 minutes that followed, he macro'd up and teched to medivacs. If you macro at the same rate while teching to tanks, your army should be comparable, if not bigger than his, when he pushed out. I think the problem is that your squad of MM got overrun near his ramp when it should have been back home defending. If that squad lived, you should be able to hold off his push since your tanks were coming out. Plus that MM squad would provide the mobility needed to defend the medivac drop.

 

[Aikouka]

Is there a build to get out enough marines to hold off a ling rush? I usually play 3v3 random teams. I can usually just wall off and the rush goes elsewhere. If a partner is zerg, he's probably going to get picked on. Most guys seem ok 1v1 but when 2 sets lings rush one, he'll need help.

Build a barracks first at 9 supply and do not put an add-on on it. Barracks first will usually supply cap you at 11 for about 10 seconds, but you should be capable of building marines than if you did SD->Rax. I usually consider teching comsat while I'm supply capped as well since I can't produce SCVs anyway.

After you killed his initial army, you should be more on the defensive since...

Would it have been better to simply toss an SCV in his nat or maybe even not worry about it? The Xel'naga towers can provide good visibility and if you're still worried, sensor towers work rather well as Terran, but their gas cost is a bit high in early game (I think they're what.. 150m, 100g?).

 

[beginner99]

What do you do vs a baneling bust as toss? I've seen banelings but only one player actually ever use them in a good way. all others just went for the decoy-zealot.
As toss you can't completely wall of your ramp (because then you can't get out of your base anymore). I usually position a few zealots on hold to block the passage but if the banelings don't fall for the decoy, these zealots get killed and lings easly rush in and GG.

The second one is that PvP sucks. You basically must zealot rush. if you don't and go for cybernetics core and/or gas before your 2nd gateway you will loose to a zealot rush. You might manage to fight of the first and maybe second wave using probes but afterwards it's GG.
If your opponent doesn't rush you then you can rush yourself and easy win.
And no you can't have a sentry out by that time to block the ramp. Only problem are maps with long walking distance. But usually no issue on 1v1 ladder. Also works vs zerg.

IMHO some early rushes are OP. also like 6 pool on 2 player maps. There is a screencast of a pro losing to it big time.

 

[Toonces]

What do you do vs a baneling bust as toss?
...you will loose to a zealot rush.

Chronoboost a sentry or two out and forcefield your ramp until you can get a few stalkers?

 

[DangerAardvark]

What do you do vs a baneling bust as toss? I've seen banelings but only one player actually ever use them in a good way. all others just went for the decoy-zealot.
As toss you can't completely wall of your ramp (because then you can't get out of your base anymore). I usually position a few zealots on hold to block the passage but if the banelings don't fall for the decoy, these zealots get killed and lings easly rush in and GG.

The second one is that PvP sucks. You basically must zealot rush. if you don't and go for cybernetics core and/or gas before your 2nd gateway you will loose to a zealot rush. You might manage to fight of the first and maybe second wave using probes but afterwards it's GG.
If your opponent doesn't rush you then you can rush yourself and easy win.
And no you can't have a sentry out by that time to block the ramp. Only problem are maps with long walking distance. But usually no issue on 1v1 ladder. Also works vs zerg.

IMHO some early rushes are OP. also like 6 pool on 2 player maps. There is a screencast of a pro losing to it big time.

Good rushers are the worst. Even if you scout it in time, all you did is prevent yourself from auto-losing. Now you have to dig yourself out of a hole.

 

[Aikouka]

So, I decided to do my placements for 1v1 tonight. I won 3 and lost 2. I've mostly been playing with a Barracks being started at 9, supply depot at 10 and usually using an early marine push (usually not against Terran).

The games I lost... I pretty much made stupid decisions with my barracks placement. In the one, I placed it at the bottom of my ramp after seeing it done before... well, I learned the hard way that it's not really a good idea at all. Maybe versus Zerg, but other than that, not so much. The other time I placed my barracks at the wrong ramp >_>. In that game, I simply got out-Marine'd at the beginning. I still survived by moving my command center to my nat and eventually taking them out, but it was GG from the huge loss in eco :\.

I won two games against Protoss Void Ray rushers. The one didn't wall off and I just annihilated him with two Marine pushes. He only had a few Zealots and I just micro'd them down with a little run-n-gun. The other was a bit more formidable. He had a few cannons near his ramp, so I had to retreat with my initial marine push. I gained a few tanks and used sweeps to gain sight of the cannons and I blew most of them up. When the last pylon was in the red, I pushed my units up the ramp and took it and his force out. I ended up losing everything but one tank and a marauder, so I pulled back and he gave chase with a dastardly Void Ray. But, he quickly retreated when he saw I made some more Marines!

I ended up winning with a push into his base using a few tanks, marauders and marines. He thought he could get me at this time... but I knew he'd be up to no good! I set the rally point for a few of my barracks near the top of my base and surely enough, he sent a fleet of Void Rays up there. Upon their destruction, it was GG!

Once I clean up my act a bit, I think it'll be a bit better!

EDIT:

Good rushers are the worst. Even if you scout it in time, all you did is prevent yourself from auto-losing. Now you have to dig yourself out of a hole.

I almost always play like someone is going to rush me, unless the map is just really long and I have more time simply because of the walking distance. But as I mentioned, I usually build my barracks first and make sure to get around 4-6 marines to hold up behind my Terran Wall of Cheese!

 

[eLiu]

So, I decided to do my placements for 1v1 tonight. I won 3 and lost 2. I've mostly been playing with a Barracks being started at 9, supply depot at 10 and usually using an early marine push (usually not against Terran).
snip

I have pretty serious doubts about the efficacy of building rax at 9 supply. You are most certainly cutting a significant number of SCVs to make this happen. And in some sense, those early SCVs are the most important ones, since they gather the longest. Compared to a more typical 10 supply, 11-12 rax, how much more quickly do you get marines out? If the idea is to push early, how big is your army w/each technique (or better, your army vs a pro's army using a "standard" build) at several time-stamps after your rax goes up?

If you scout super early & see a rush coming (or just suspect it), I could see sacrificing economy to get defences up asap (though at 9 sounds like a lot of sacrifice).

How much does it matter that you get those marines out a little earlier? Can it not be compensated by having more marines a little later? (Is it even later? see above.) Additionally, even if your opening is the difference btwn life & death in the face of early rush/cheese, does it really matter? Sacrificing to defend rush/cheese puts you at a disadvantage whenever early rush/cheese isn't the opponent's plan; and I'd bet most of the time, it isn't. i.e., just lose the early rush/cheese games & don't sweat it.

edit: I'm not trying to bash you or anything like that. It's always good to see people experimenting w/the opening build orders. I'm also a chess player, and new openings are always fun and exciting. But you have to have a good reason to deviate from the norm--prove that it's better.

 

[imaheadcase]

Its funny i have more fun with Zerg, but I get killed online with them most the time. I found though, that even if i get beat with the zerg, it sure was fun watching it happen. 😛

 

[DangerAardvark]

Its funny i have more fun with Zerg, but I get killed online with them most the time. I found though, that even if i get beat with the zerg, it sure was fun watching it happen. 😛

I just played a few games as Zerg too, and it's really fun. Totally different style than Terran. I just wish I could go down to bronze or silver as Zerg.

 

[AznAnarchy99]

No offense to those in Bronze/Silver 1v1, but damn all the people I've played with are horrible. I placed in Silver cause I did my 1s placements right when I got the game and so I decided to play it now and damnn I ran over my last 5 opponents.

I got terran players who dont even wall. Players who let me harass the entire game. At least its good for me to learn.

 

[Ancalagon44]

How bad are bronze and silver players?

I ask because, well my friend and I are casual players. We arent terrible, having played a lot of SC1 back in the day, but we arent fussed about particular build orders or micro. Last night we played a placement 2v2 (I think?) and lost because one of the other guys was protoss and used dark templar.

Anyway.... right now both of us are of the opinion that we dont want to play SC2 multiplayer because even the bronze leaguers, suck though they might, take it very seriously. Is that true? or could we play in bronze and silver league and have a good time?

 

[magomago]

need some assistance how do i counter a terran who quickly moves around my base with tanks in seige mode trying to wall me in and plenty of marines as backup? Obviously not to let them get to that point in the first place, but I don't have that luxery. I tried going around them and even letting them sit there, but they move the tanks in closer one by one, with the mass of marines, and let loose with the OPed damage (thankfully they are cutting the damage by a lot). I normally would tinker more but this just happened to me 3x in a row (I'm in bronze) and I'm amazed at how fast they can get the units. Obviously next time I'm going to scout and not let them come that close to me, but it seems to be the new popular cheese move, and I just don't have the time to bring in the cloaked banshees before i get owned.

 

[DangerAardvark]

need some assistance how do i counter a terran who quickly moves around my base with tanks in seige mode trying to wall me in and plenty of marines as backup? Obviously not to let them get to that point in the first place, but I don't have that luxery. I tried going around them and even letting them sit there, but they move the tanks in closer one by one, with the mass of marines, and let loose with the OPed damage (thankfully they are cutting the damage by a lot). I normally would tinker more but this just happened to me 3x in a row (I'm in bronze) and I'm amazed at how fast they can get the units. Obviously next time I'm going to scout and not let them come that close to me, but it seems to be the new popular cheese move, and I just don't have the time to bring in the cloaked banshees before i get owned.

TvT usually boils down to a race for siege tanks, then vikings for air control. If you're getting contained with tanks, your best bet is to try to do it to him first.

 

[imaheadcase]

Most bronze players are just casual gamers, don't care for macros/micro management. Its not really fun to play the same game over and over you see higher up games.

 

[beginner99]

Chronoboost a sentry or two out and forcefield your ramp until you can get a few stalkers?

see:

...
If your opponent doesn't rush you then you can rush yourself and easy win.
And no you can't have a sentry out by that time to block the ramp. Only problem are maps with long walking distance. But usually no issue on 1v1 ladder. Also works vs zerg.
...

And even if you somehow manage to do that it only delays the rush. Just count to all the gas for 2 sentries and "few stalker". he will have 10+ zealots by then. Yeah stalkers are quicker but I would not bother chasing them. just kill probes and/or your only nexus and GG.

Good rushers are the worst. Even if you scout it in time, all you did is prevent yourself from auto-losing. Now you have to dig yourself out of a hole.

That basically sums it up. I once scouted a ling rush and managed in the last second to place additonal pylon to completely wall myself in. The lings eventually killed the pylon but I had zealots till then. An issue is that such a build that allow you to wall in completely as toss are rather poor, eg not alot of space for your units at the top of the ramp or you need too many buildings.
In PvP I will only rush from now on. Not really a downside to it.

@magomago
just fill a medivac with scv's and fly to a remote expansion. But make sure he doesn't see it. In bronze, most people ever really scout. You can usually just expand anywhere that's not in the direct route between you and him.
Or fill them with combat units and drop him. He will usually have no forces at his base and you can destroy his economy.

 

[beginner99]

Here an example of a PvP zealot rush:

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/76520-1v1-protoss-metalopolis
(not a link directly o the file but you can download it on that page)

As you can see I don't really succeed initial but he is behind after the first attack and never catches up.
Also see that microing stalkers vs. zealots is nice but you can see my reaction to that. Just destroy his economy. That will win the game almosr for sure just not instantly.

The VR was not really necessary but it's always fun to attack at front and kill probes without him realizing.

 

[Glitchny]

How bad are bronze and silver players?

I ask because, well my friend and I are casual players. We arent terrible, having played a lot of SC1 back in the day, but we arent fussed about particular build orders or micro. Last night we played a placement 2v2 (I think?) and lost because one of the other guys was protoss and used dark templar.

Anyway.... right now both of us are of the opinion that we dont want to play SC2 multiplayer because even the bronze leaguers, suck though they might, take it very seriously. Is that true? or could we play in bronze and silver league and have a good time?

They aren't that good, most just try to turtle and mass units similar to SC1. Should be fine for casual play, there are also the custom games and game types that are much more laid back as points/ranking is a non-issue. Also FFA games can be fun, I usually try to do some ridiculous strat in FFA and kill off 1 person and then get stomped by the Terran that turtled into mass BC's.

need some assistance how do i counter a terran who quickly moves around my base with tanks in seige mode trying to wall me in and plenty of marines as backup? Obviously not to let them get to that point in the first place, but I don't have that luxery. I tried going around them and even letting them sit there, but they move the tanks in closer one by one, with the mass of marines, and let loose with the OPed damage (thankfully they are cutting the damage by a lot). I normally would tinker more but this just happened to me 3x in a row (I'm in bronze) and I'm amazed at how fast they can get the units. Obviously next time I'm going to scout and not let them come that close to me, but it seems to be the new popular cheese move, and I just don't have the time to bring in the cloaked banshees before i get owned.

The damage nerf isn't going to change tanks a lot in most cases. Lings take and extra shot and zealots will take slightly longer to kill. They will still destroy buildings and armored units just as fast.

Also, it's not "cheese". That term is so incredibly overused and incorrect. Using tanks to contain someone in their base is smart and gives you map control. If scouted it can be countered and avoided with minimal issues.

I'm of the opinion that there are no "cheese" strats, except maybe a harvester rush. Most "cheese" strats are all-in strats, there is nothing wrong with them, and they are possible to defend against. Just because it beats people doesn't mean it's "cheese." People play to win, and if a strat works it works regardless of the other players opinion of it being "cheese"

 

[SKC]

need some assistance how do i counter a terran who quickly moves around my base with tanks in seige mode trying to wall me in and plenty of marines as backup? ..

The suggestions given here are good. Also try to take advantage of the sieged tanks' lack of mobility - I just watched one of Day9's dailies (recent one, I forget the players' names) on a TvT where this was used to good effect. If you scout carefully try to catch your opponent mid transition or are able to cut off his reinforcing units you can break the containment.

 

[imaheadcase]

20wins 29 losses. I'm actually getting better! It was 11wins 25 losses a few days ago. 😀


I think i'm getting pretty good with zerg.

Again though, the only downside is protoss with the cheese rush collecter start. I've yet to see a way to actually counter that. This is what i have tried.

1. decoy with one outside base at start, hopefully they stop to attack at and chase it around. no go
2. fight them. They win hands down because they can attack at distance +shields.

What else is there? I would say out of those losses, 5 of them are simple spawn/send probes to kill my guys. Its so gay.

Anyone got something for it?

 

[Kev]

20wins 29 losses. I'm actually getting better! It was 11wins 25 losses a few days ago. 😀


I think i'm getting pretty good with zerg.

Again though, the only downside is protoss with the cheese rush collecter start. I've yet to see a way to actually counter that. This is what i have tried.

1. decoy with one outside base at start, hopefully they stop to attack at and chase it around. no go
2. fight them. They win hands down because they can attack at distance +shields.

What else is there? I would say out of those losses, 5 of them are simple spawn/send probes to kill my guys. Its so gay.

Anyone got something for it?

I would just fight back and keep producing more workers to join in the fight. You will have a numbers advantage because in order to rush they have to sacrifice collecting minerals. Then again I might be wrong because I suck at this game.

 

[eLiu]

The suggestions given here are good. Also try to take advantage of the sieged tanks' lack of mobility - I just watched one of Day9's dailies (recent one, I forget the players' names) on a TvT where this was used to good effect. If you scout carefully try to catch your opponent mid transition or are able to cut off his reinforcing units you can break the containment.

It was #171, Gretorp vs Fenix, TvT.

Gretorp expanded quickly & formed a mobile force centered on mararuders/medivacs for harrassment, and a core of vikings/marauders/medivacs/tanks for defense & poking.

Fenix had a substantial force of tanks sieged up in the middle of the map. Day9 indicated that having lots of tanks makes the player immobile, and you take advantage of that by beign highly mobile--attack bases that are far from each other/far from main army, expand expand expand, etc.

As part of the Q&A, he briefly discusses his opinion on the upcoming siege tank nerf.


Also for the people complaining about worker rushes, please post a replay. This is just not feasible as a 1v1 strategy; by the time they reach you, you should have numerical superiority. If you lose, you're doing something wrong. Use your superior numbers by getting all/most drones involved & focus fire. In team games, it's a little more viable (really only on maps w/common team spawns) b/c the cheesers can gang up on you.

 

[SKC]

It was #171, Gretorp vs Fenix, TvT.

^ what he said. I should clarify that my comments re scouting for a timing window were not necessarily related to that specific game. Very interesting to watch, I thought the superfast expo was very risky when I first saw it.