Official NHL playoffs 2012 thread

[Train]

This whole ultra long contracts thing is incredibly stupid, as the game changes, the composition of teams will need to change too. These long contracts stymie team's ability to adapt because the contracts generally aren't able to be traded.

The problem is that one guy offers one, the player won't look at anything else, thus other GMs have to offer them too, it's a race to the bottom.

It really depends on what kind of trade and buyout clauses are in the contract.

Given that Suter wanted to be closer to home, AND to play with Parise, I would imagine he would want a no trade clause, which usually lowers the payment to the player because it takes away the teams flexibility.

If he got a no trade clause, and a 13 year contract for that kind of money, good lord Minnesota got raped.

These long term contracts are likely in anticipation of changing rules coming to how salary caps are enforced. Teams have been gaming the system by front loading some contracts, back loading others, to allow for a short 1-2 year intersection of highly paid talent. Chicago had this in '08, which is why they had to trade several players away right after winning the cup.

 

[SP33Demon]

It really depends on what kind of trade and buyout clauses are in the contract.

Given that Suter wanted to be closer to home, AND to play with Parise, I would imagine he would want a no trade clause, which usually lowers the payment to the player because it takes away the teams flexibility.

If he got a no trade clause, and a 13 year contract for that kind of money, good lord Minnesota got raped.

These long term contracts are likely in anticipation of changing rules coming to how salary caps are enforced. Teams have been gaming the system by front loading some contracts, back loading others, to allow for a short 1-2 year intersection of highly paid talent. Chicago had this in '08, which is why they had to trade several players away right after winning the cup.

Yup, it's a loophole in the system. Exactly why you rarely see such long contracts in other major sports.

 

[rh71]

The reality is that at the end of the day other teams offer a comparable environment to Nashville and can pay more. That leaves Nashville at a serious disadvantage sadly.

unless you're prone to marrying a hot country music singer that is.

 

[Fingolfin269]

Your team just really needs to get used to the fact that unless it has the financial capacity to keep the amazing talent it cultivates once they leave their ELCs and stop being RFAs, they're going to keep giving away their talent.

The reality is that at the end of the day other teams offer a comparable environment to Nashville and can pay more. That leaves Nashville at a serious disadvantage sadly.

The fact is that our team is now to the point where they plan to spend to the cap. They offered Suter 13y/90m. That's 8m short of what the Wild offered and Suter had told Poile he would give the Preds the last crack at countering any offer. In the end he didn't even give Poile that luxury. Hell we're hearing today from Parise that it was Suter's idea that they both go to Minnesota!

There are really a few things at play here:

1) We're still a relatively young pro sports market. The Preds and Titans are both in the 10-15 year mark and the Preds are just now starting to mature. We're not used to making offers to keep our top talent because in the past we've never been able to afford to do so. It was different this time and so this is the first taste we've ever had of having a player who just flat out doesn't want to be here.

2) It seems there was an element of lying by Suter in all of this which makes the situation even worse as a fan. Those of us who follow the team closely know what was supposedly said by Suter in private. We also know what he said in public around the All Star break. Our organization did everything Suter said it needed to and he still left. So the hardest part of all of this is that at the end of the day we have been left with no Suter and no assets for Suter.

3) As pointed out earlier, the current plan is to finally spend to cap or somewhere near cap. It's time to get out of the cellar. But losing a guy like Suter, and potentially Weber, can quickly set this team back 5 years. Setting a team like this back 5 years can quickly make spending to cap no longer plausible as this is not really a prime hockey market. Most of the fans get drawn to the arena by the culture of winning. It broods interest in the sport. But this is really a football market and it's pretty easy for a lot of people to just walk away from the whole thing if things go bad for 2 or 3+ years in a row. I'll keep buying my season tickets but I'm not the fan they're trying to keep. It's the fringe fan that has shown up over the last season or two.

I know it's hard for some of you guys to relate to since you're from traditional hockey markets. It's just different here. When it comes to hockey the fan base is very shaky. I think the firm base has grown to a point where we aren't really at risk of losing the club any time soon but keeping the fringe fans and businesses around who allow us to have the extra money to sign our home grown talent and bring in better talent via free agency is the variable.

 

[rh71]

excuse the interruption, but i had to ahem bookmark this somewhere:

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/34960.../1247/beginSlide/1/beginChapter/1/beginTab/1/

 

[iRONic]

You're excused.

 

[n7]

If you think Preds got screwed today just think how the Ducks must feel. Losing a 21 year old prospect and getting nothing in return, that really sucks.

Oilers pulled in a good one, at least i hope.

:awe:

 

[Wordplay]

TSN reports:

The Philadelphia Flyers have signed defenceman Shea Weber to a 14-year offer sheet worth upwards of $100 million. The Nashville Predators have seven days to match the offer if they wish to retain Weber's services.

WOW!!

Flyers have $7.8M dollars in cap space right now. Flyers better hope Pronger doesn't announce his retirement instead of being placed on IR for the year. They also have to re-sign RFA Jakub Voracek.

Good luck Flyers

 

[RbSX]

These long term contracts are getting really stupid and limiting the mobility of talent around the league.

If nothing else I hope this is the only thing that gets kicked to the curb during the new CBA agreement.

 

[xSauronx]

These long term contracts are getting really stupid and limiting the mobility of talent around the league.

If nothing else I hope this is the only thing that gets kicked to the curb during the new CBA agreement.

agreed. i already think 7 -8 years is borderline, but these double digit deals are insane

 

[Fingolfin269]

Ugh as a Preds fan I don't want to lose Weber immediately after losing Suter. At least not for 4 lower first round draft picks. At the same time I dont want the team getting stuck with one of the largest of these ridiculous contracts that won't even be allowed soon. Ugh.

 

[Jeffg010]

TSN reports:


WOW!!

Flyers have $7.8M dollars in cap space right now. Flyers better hope Pronger doesn't announce his retirement instead of being placed on IR for the year. They also have to re-sign RFA Jakub Voracek.

Good luck Flyers

This has to mean Pronger is done to many injuries and going to be 38 this year. His wife has stated that there has been little improvement in his recovery from post-concussion symptoms.

 

[SP33Demon]

Pronger is most likely done. Huge huge pickup for Philly!

 

[mugs]

Ugh as a Preds fan I don't want to lose Weber immediately after losing Suter. At least not for 4 lower first round draft picks. At the same time I dont want the team getting stuck with one of the largest of these ridiculous contracts that won't even be allowed soon. Ugh.

It's an asshole move by Weber. In order to get anything worthwhile in return for Weber, Nashville has to match the offer and then wait a year to trade him - apparently Weber will make $26 million in that time. Nashville has every right to match the offer and keep him for 14 years, the only thing stopping them is the implicit threat that Weber will demand a trade.

 

[Wordplay]

These long term contracts are getting really stupid and limiting the mobility of talent around the league.

If nothing else I hope this is the only thing that gets kicked to the curb during the new CBA agreement.

That really confuses me about these long term contracts. The owners are trying to end these contracts but are allowing these long term contracts to happen in the first place.

Pronger is most likely done. Huge huge pickup for Philly!

For the Flyers sake he better not announce his retierment. If he does than his contract still counts against the cap because it was a +35 contract. If they keep him on IR then they can get relief.

After this upcoming season Pronger's contract still has 4 years left on it. LOL!!!!

EDIT: WTF Holland $3.7M a year for Quincey, you sir are on crack.

 

[mugs]

That really confuses me about these long term contracts. The owners are trying to end these contracts but are allowing these long term contracts to happen in the first place.

The problem is, once they started they became a necessity to get the top players. Most teams don't want to and certainly can't afford to offer these contracts (e.g. the Minnesota Wild who were pleading poverty before they signed Parise and Suter), but they know someone else will if they don't.

For the Flyers sake he better not announce his retierment. If he does than his contract still counts against the cap because it was a +35 contract. If they keep him on IR then they can get relief.

After this upcoming season Pronger's contract still has 4 years left on it. LOL!!!!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if he stays he gets paid and if he retires he does not, right? I'm not seeing much incentive for him to retire. He has probably already told the Flyers that he won't. Most of his salary would be covered by insurance anyway, so the Flyers are happy to keep him on LTIR for 5 years.

 

[Fingolfin269]

It's an asshole move by Weber. In order to get anything worthwhile in return for Weber, Nashville has to match the offer and then wait a year to trade him - apparently Weber will make $26 million in that time. Nashville has every right to match the offer and keep him for 14 years, the only thing stopping them is the implicit threat that Weber will demand a trade.

I just saw a report that calls the 26m number into question. What I saw looks a little better for the preds if it's correct.

@RealKyper: #Preds Weber offer sheet from #Flyers. 1st 4 yrs 1M salary+13M sb; yrs 5-6 4M sal+ 8Msb; yrs 7-10 6M sal; year 11 3M sal; last 3 yrs 1M sal

Not a ton but considerable for our ownership group with the 13m hit.

 

[Blackjack200]

It's an asshole move by Weber. In order to get anything worthwhile in return for Weber, Nashville has to match the offer and then wait a year to trade him - apparently Weber will make $26 million in that time. Nashville has every right to match the offer and keep him for 14 years, the only thing stopping them is the implicit threat that Weber will demand a trade.

It's hard for me to blame Weber, Parise, or Suter when teams throw that much money at them. At least with Weber the guy might actually be worth that price.

BTW, the salary cap is a joke at this point. Philly won't have to deal with Chris Pronger's cap hit. The Rangers are paying Wade Redden to play in the AHL so they don't have to take his cap hit. By the time Weber is old and not worth a $7.5 hit any more, the Flyers can just trade him to a cap floor team since his real salary of $1-2 million is easy to pay and his big cap hit will actually help them.

Someone should offer sheet Voracek to a 5 year $36 million deal.

 

[mugs]

I just saw a report that calls the 26m number into question. What I saw looks a little better for the preds if it's correct.

@RealKyper: #Preds Weber offer sheet from #Flyers. 1st 4 yrs 1M salary+13M sb; yrs 5-6 4M sal+ 8Msb; yrs 7-10 6M sal; year 11 3M sal; last 3 yrs 1M sal

Not a ton but considerable for our ownership group with the 13m hit.

The $26 million number is the minimum the Preds would have to pay him if they keep him for the minimum required time and then trade him - his first year's salary and first two years signing bonuses. Apparently that's $27 million. If the Predators are going to match the offer it only really makes sense if they're going to keep him long-term.

It's hard for me to blame Weber, Parise, or Suter when teams throw that much money at them. At least with Weber the guy might actually be worth that price.

Weber signed a contract that the Predators would very likely be willing to match - why wouldn't they want to lock him up for the rest of his career? He knows the only thing stopping them from doing that is his unwillingness to play for them. That's why I call it an asshole move - he signed the contract with the implicit threat of demanding a trade if Nashville matches, and the contract includes a poison pill (the signing bonuses) to make a trade extremely expensive for Nashville. It's too bad teams can't trade money anymore.

I don't blame him for wanting to get a long-term contract now, because he might lose that possibility in the future.

BTW, the salary cap is a joke at this point. Philly won't have to deal with Chris Pronger's cap hit. The Rangers are paying Wade Redden to play in the AHL so they don't have to take his cap hit. By the time Weber is old and not worth a $7.5 hit any more, the Flyers can just trade him to a cap floor team since his real salary of $1-2 million is easy to pay and his big cap hit will actually help them.

Someone should offer sheet Voracek to a 5 year $36 million deal.

I think this CBA fight is going to be bad. Likely a lockout.

 

[PClark99]

It's an asshole move by Weber. In order to get anything worthwhile in return for Weber, Nashville has to match the offer and then wait a year to trade him - apparently Weber will make $26 million in that time. Nashville has every right to match the offer and keep him for 14 years, the only thing stopping them is the implicit threat that Weber will demand a trade.

No they could let him walk to Philly for 4 1sts.

Then the Flyers could trade them players back for perhaps 2 of the picks.

Poile and Homer have a good trading history, at least until now. There is alot of speculation that something to this effect may occur.

 

[Blackjack200]

Weber signed a contract that the Predators would very likely be willing to match - why wouldn't they want to lock him up for the rest of his career? He knows the only thing stopping them from doing that is his unwillingness to play for them. That's why I call it an asshole move - he signed the contract with the implicit threat of demanding a trade if Nashville matches, and the contract includes a poison pill (the signing bonuses) to make a trade extremely expensive for Nashville. It's too bad teams can't trade money anymore.

I don't blame him for wanting to get a long-term contract now, because he might lose that possibility in the future.

I don't think he took the bonuses as a poison pill, I think he did it as protection against the next CBA.

I don't really blame him for not wanting to play for them, they just lost his defensive partner (even though it wasn't their fault, $98 million is absurd for Suter), and the team is not going in the right direction.

He knew that Nashville was going to put a lot of pressure on him to sign an extension since they just lost Suter, and if he didn't he would be villified until the trade deadline, when he would have been traded.

If I was the Predators, I would just take the 4 first rounders and draft 8 first rounders in the next four years. Everyone is insisting that the Flyers's picks will be late, but I'm not convinced. Who's on that defense after Weber? Who's up front after Giroux? A couple of aging guys in Briere and Hartnell? A few unproven guys in Schenn, Simmonds, and Courturier? Fedotenko? Talbot? Matt Read is a nice piece, but that's just not enough. It's not as good as Kovalchuk-Zajac-Elias-Clarkson-Henrique-Josefson-Zubrus, it's barely better than what the Rangers have, and the Rangers have a much better defense. Forget about the goaltending, Philly is still a disaster at that position. What's so great about this team? Am I missing something?

 

[mugs]

No they could let him walk to Philly for 4 1sts.

Then the Flyers could trade them players back for perhaps 2 of the picks.

Poile and Homer have a good trading history, at least until now. There is alot of speculation that something to this effect may occur.

That's not a good return for Weber.

Just read $68 million in signing bonuses in first 6 years. Depending on what happens with the CBA that could be a horrible contract.

 

[Blackjack200]

That's not a good return for Weber.

Just read $68 million in signing bonuses in first 6 years. Depending on what happens with the CBA that could be a horrible contract.

Assuming that he really didn't want to play in Nashville any more, I think it's better than anything else they could have gotten.

This is what the Devils gave up for Kovalchuk:

Niclas Bergfors
Johnny Oduya
Patrice Cormier
1st round pick
3rd round pick

I'd much rather have 4 firsts than that.

 

[iRONic]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if he stays he gets paid and if he retires he does not, right? I'm not seeing much incentive for him to retire. He has probably already told the Flyers that he won't. Most of his salary would be covered by insurance anyway, so the Flyers are happy to keep him on LTIR for 5 years.

Yep, same current situation the Bruins have with Marc Savard.

 

[iRONic]

Can Weber play goal too?