Obama to unveil big increase in required mpg

[Moonbeam]

s: Exactly which part am I misinterpreting??? According to this, someone is making my choice for me??

M: To understand you would have to want to. I can't guarantee that you will. Then you would have to observe how you react, you would have to look at your motivations and to do that you would have to learn to feel. I observe that people are unconscious of their own internal motivations because they do not allow themselves to become conscious of what they feel. It is quite likely you have any idea about any of this. You probably imagine you know who you are when in fact you have no idea. People can't know how brainwashed they are without a good deal of hard study.

s: After all, I have all this stuff in my house, but according to you, I did not buy it under my free will. I thought I wanted it, but according to you, that is a ridiculous notion.

M: Yes, quite so.

s: Surely, it can't be as simple as me seeing an ad for it and thinking to myself, "Hey, I want that!" and I go out and buy it. Nope, according to you, I was 'brainwashed by the trillions of hours of ads I watched on TV and they made me buy it...This is what makes me laugh...

M: You laugh because you don't know.

s: How does your statement of no free will because I am brain washed by all of these TV commercials apply to whether I buy a Honda or a Ford? A PC or a Mac? An ipod or zune? McDonalds or Burger King? Help me understand my I have no free will in these choices...

M: It is so simple you will not see it. A choice between a and b isn't choice. It's a prison. Choice is not a or b, a or b or c. Choice is if there is no need. What do you need and why?
From what does need arise?

 

[spacejamz]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
s: Exactly which part am I misinterpreting??? According to this, someone is making my choice for me??

M: To understand you would have to want to. I can't guarantee that you will. Then you would have to observe how you react, you would have to look at your motivations and to do that you would have to learn to feel. I observe that people are unconscious of their own internal motivations because they do not allow themselves to become conscious of what they feel. It is quite likely you have any idea about any of this. You probably imagine you know who you are when in fact you have no idea. People can't know how brainwashed they are without a good deal of hard study.

s: After all, I have all this stuff in my house, but according to you, I did not buy it under my free will. I thought I wanted it, but according to you, that is a ridiculous notion.

M: Yes, quite so.

s: Surely, it can't be as simple as me seeing an ad for it and thinking to myself, "Hey, I want that!" and I go out and buy it. Nope, according to you, I was 'brainwashed by the trillions of hours of ads I watched on TV and they made me buy it...This is what makes me laugh...

M: You laugh because you don't know.

s: How does your statement of no free will because I am brain washed by all of these TV commercials apply to whether I buy a Honda or a Ford? A PC or a Mac? An ipod or zune? McDonalds or Burger King? Help me understand my I have no free will in these choices...

M: It is so simple you will not see it. A choice between a and b isn't choice. It's a prison. Choice is not a or b, a or b or c. Choice is if there is no need. What do you need and why?
From what does need arise?

Do you always try and make things more complicated than they need to be? The companies that make the products that they think consumers want advertise their products on TV, Radio, newspapers etc in an attempt to entice us into buying them and you call it brainwashing??

and then your last statement about choice being a prison??? WTF is that about? sounds like to you need to just take a deep breath and relax. You might try actually going outside and enjoying life once in awhile instead of trying to find fault with everything.

 

[Moonbeam]

s: Do you always try and make things more complicated than they need to be? The companies that make the products that they think consumers want advertise their products on TV, Radio, newspapers etc in an attempt to entice us into buying them and you call it brainwashing??

M: Look, what you call complicated is what I call simple. You are the one who is complicated. You are so complex in fact that you don't even see simple realities like the fact that enticing people to have desires they don't have is brainwashing them and creating in them a need that did not exist and to which they respond with a will to satisfy. You are so complicated you defeat your own case with the support you offer for it. That takes some real talent.

s: and then your last statement about choice being a prison??? WTF is that about? sounds like to you need to just take a deep breath and relax. You might try actually going outside and enjoying life once in awhile instead of trying to find fault with everything.

M: Thank you for the advise. Know that I am quite relaxed right here in my chair in the kitchen that is filled with orchid blooms and a window overlooking the garden, and that I don't have to go anywhere to enjoy life. Long ago I stopped looking for happiness and it started looking for me.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: spacejamz
so we do have free will to buy what we want??? I thought Moonbeam told me I don't have a choice. Who makes my choice for me?? and why do they make me want to buy Ipods so much??

or are you really just trying to say that alot of companies advertise their products and consumers use these advertisements to make a decision on what they want to buy for themselves. This kinda sounds like they have choice of whether to buy an Ipod or a Zune. Where is the lack of freewill here? But in yours and Moonbeam's mind, this is brainwashing?? And if you think they are brainwashing us sheeple consumers, that almost sounds like a conspiracy...

it's no conspiracy that the goal of advertising is to get you to buy sh!t you don't need or even really want. whether you believe that advertising is effective at accomplishing that goal is something else entirely.

 

[spacejamz]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: spacejamz
so we do have free will to buy what we want??? I thought Moonbeam told me I don't have a choice. Who makes my choice for me?? and why do they make me want to buy Ipods so much??

or are you really just trying to say that alot of companies advertise their products and consumers use these advertisements to make a decision on what they want to buy for themselves. This kinda sounds like they have choice of whether to buy an Ipod or a Zune. Where is the lack of freewill here? But in yours and Moonbeam's mind, this is brainwashing?? And if you think they are brainwashing us sheeple consumers, that almost sounds like a conspiracy...

it's no conspiracy that the goal of advertising is to get you to buy sh!t you don't need or even really want. whether you believe that advertising is effective at accomplishing that goal is something else entirely.

Let's end this discussion once and for all...

I say that I have free will to buy what I want/need (and conversely, not buy what I don't want/need).

El Fenix/Moonie say that the trillions of hours of advertising brainwash us into buying things we don't want or need (Not really sure how you guys know what I want and what I need though, but whatever) which in my opinion constitutes a conspiracy against us poor sheeple consumers.

Does that pretty much sum this up?? If so, I will go on buying what I want/need and enjoy them while you two guys can laugh at us sheeple consumers for buyings useless crap that you think we don't want.

Cheers..

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: spacejamz
Let's end this discussion once and for all...

I say that I have free will to buy what I want/need (and conversely, not buy what I don't want/need).

El Fenix/Moonie say that the trillions of hours of advertising brainwash us into buying things we don't want or need (Not really sure how you guys know what I want and what I need though, but whatever) which in my opinion constitutes a conspiracy against us poor sheeple consumers.

Does that pretty much sum this up?? If so, I will go on buying what I want/need and enjoy them while you two guys can laugh at us sheeple consumers for buyings useless crap that you think we don't want.

Cheers..

don't put words in my mouth. i never said that i agreed with moonbeam's theory (which is actually pretty well developed in various journals and philosophies). i took issue with you calling it a conspiracy. it can't be a conspiracy when it's overt.

 

[spacejamz]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: spacejamz
Let's end this discussion once and for all...

I say that I have free will to buy what I want/need (and conversely, not buy what I don't want/need).

El Fenix/Moonie say that the trillions of hours of advertising brainwash us into buying things we don't want or need (Not really sure how you guys know what I want and what I need though, but whatever) which in my opinion constitutes a conspiracy against us poor sheeple consumers.

Does that pretty much sum this up?? If so, I will go on buying what I want/need and enjoy them while you two guys can laugh at us sheeple consumers for buyings useless crap that you think we don't want.

Cheers..

don't put words in my mouth. i never said that i agreed with moonbeam's theory (which is actually pretty well developed in various journals and philosophies). i took issue with you calling it a conspiracy. it can't be a conspiracy when it's overt.

As I took issue with his statement about not having freewill and buying things I do not want.

What exactly did these studies show?? That some people actually bought something they didn't need after seeing a TV commercial? Stop the presses!!!!

 

[Fingolfin269]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: spacejamz
Let's end this discussion once and for all...

I say that I have free will to buy what I want/need (and conversely, not buy what I don't want/need).

El Fenix/Moonie say that the trillions of hours of advertising brainwash us into buying things we don't want or need (Not really sure how you guys know what I want and what I need though, but whatever) which in my opinion constitutes a conspiracy against us poor sheeple consumers.

Does that pretty much sum this up?? If so, I will go on buying what I want/need and enjoy them while you two guys can laugh at us sheeple consumers for buyings useless crap that you think we don't want.

Cheers..

don't put words in my mouth. i never said that i agreed with moonbeam's theory (which is actually pretty well developed in various journals and philosophies). i took issue with you calling it a conspiracy. it can't be a conspiracy when it's overt.

It is all so clear now. Moonbeam has been brainwashed by philosophy and is now trapped in his own prison of philosophy. He thinks he's in the clear now but in reality he is trapped as well.

PS - I hate myself. (Beat you to it)

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: spacejamz

As I took issue with his statement about not having freewill and buying things I do not want.

What exactly did these studies show?? That some people actually bought something they didn't need after seeing a TV commercial? Stop the presses!!!!

it's usually about the influence of tv on young children. i learned a bit about it in a politics of hollywood class back in college (upper level government elective with a fantastic prof).

anyway, i think you'd agree that the environs you were raised in effect who you are. i mean, strippers have father issues, right?

 

[OCGuy]

This just in: Obama mandates life expectancy to be 105 years by 2016.

 

[Ackmed]

Originally posted by: boomerang

Originally posted by: Ackmed
Two of my 3 vehicles need 93, and both get under 15mpg... and I love it.

You won't love it when they tax you to the point you're forced to knuckle under. They won't just tax your gas, you'll be paying gas-guzzler fees. But remember comrade, it's for the greater good.

Hasnt happened yet, so I dont worry about it. I could afford to pay most any tax they try to employ on me. Its warm now too, and my 4800k pound Land Rover, hauling my 5200k boat, gets single digits. I always give a friendly honk to the go green loonies.

 

[1prophet]

Originally posted by: spacejamz


Let's end this discussion once and for all...

I say that I have free will to buy what I want/need (and conversely, not buy what I don't want/need).

El Fenix/Moonie say that the trillions of hours of advertising brainwash us into buying things we don't want or need (Not really sure how you guys know what I want and what I need though, but whatever) which in my opinion constitutes a conspiracy against us poor sheeple consumers.

Does that pretty much sum this up?? If so, I will go on buying what I want/need and enjoy them while you two guys can laugh at us sheeple consumers for buyings useless crap that you think we don't want.

Cheers..

Here you go, take 4 hours out of your life and you can see how easily most people have their own lusts and desires used to manipulate them while believing they made the choice due to their free will.

Century of Self

 

[Fingolfin269]

Originally posted by: 1prophet

Originally posted by: spacejamz


Let's end this discussion once and for all...

I say that I have free will to buy what I want/need (and conversely, not buy what I don't want/need).

El Fenix/Moonie say that the trillions of hours of advertising brainwash us into buying things we don't want or need (Not really sure how you guys know what I want and what I need though, but whatever) which in my opinion constitutes a conspiracy against us poor sheeple consumers.

Does that pretty much sum this up?? If so, I will go on buying what I want/need and enjoy them while you two guys can laugh at us sheeple consumers for buyings useless crap that you think we don't want.

Cheers..

Here you go, take 4 hours out of your life and you can see how easily most people have their own lusts and desires used to manipulate them while believing they made the choice due to their free will.

Century of Self

But is your desire to resist the lusts/needs/ of your own free will? Or are you trapped into believing that by not giving in to the cravings of so many others that you are somehow different? We are all brainwashed one way or another.

 

[Pneumothorax]

Originally posted by: Corn
Well I applaud Obama returning the automotive industry back to the glory days of the late 70's and 80's. Nothing excites buyers quite like "appliances". I look forward to the lefties choking on the unintended consequences of mandating these standards from a single engineering cycle: the proliferation of diesel burning engines in passenger vehicles.

EXACTLY, as most of the posters here don't seem to be car enthusiasts, the few of us who do care more about cars than just A to B transportation are lamenting this new mandate. It took us literally 2 decades of crap-ola cars starting from the early 70's to the early-middle 90's for our cars to equal the performance of their predecessors that were made in the 60's due to 70's emission/mpg mandates. Heck not even a small 140hp 1.8L civic meets these MPG rules. So to get a 140hp civic to get to 39 average MPG (without hybrid which I detest) would require at least direct injection motor, aluminum unit body with carbon fiber (VERY expensive) OR you can slap together a 2 seater 30% smaller version with a 1.0L 65hp motor (Tata anyone?)

Seeing this CAFE legislation pass has gotten me to consider financing a BMW M3 with a tasty 8300RPM V8 instead of purchasing it outright and waiting for it to be outlawed.
Even the wife now wants us to buy the 5.7L Tundra before that gets downgraded to 2.5L 4 cylinder engine.
Of course, we'll have to baby these vehicles as it will be about 2030 before the performance of today's vehicles will be matched by their "green" descendants.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
But is your desire to resist the lusts/needs/ of your own free will? Or are you trapped into believing that by not giving in to the cravings of so many others that you are somehow different? We are all brainwashed one way or another.

I think the distinction lies is in those who recognize and examine potential manipulation of our choices and desires and those that don't. Take the red pill and watch the vid.

 

[Fingolfin269]

Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian

Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
But is your desire to resist the lusts/needs/ of your own free will? Or are you trapped into believing that by not giving in to the cravings of so many others that you are somehow different? We are all brainwashed one way or another.

I think the distinction lies is in those who recognize and examine potential manipulation of our choices and desires and those that don't. Take the red pill and watch the vid.

Ill watch the vid if I have time over the weekend. The thing is I already fit under the category you're talking about. I know I don't need a fast car. But I know after owning one that I prefer the driving experience over the 4 banger I have now. I know I don't need hdtv or blu-ray or mcdonalds or a cell phone or two chicks at the same time or well pretty much anything other than food and shelter. Hell the only reason I need clothes in the summer is to keep from being sunburned and the only reason I need electricity in the winter is because I don't have the means to light a huge fire where I live. Though I could technically move to some remote place in the mountains and take over a cave from the sleeping bears.
Basically I prefer to want things and carefully consider why I want them. Sure I fall to my impulses just like anyone else, but at this point I NEED absolutely nothing.

 

[sandorski]

We only "Want" what is made available. If someone made a 2 Seater sports car the size of a Mansion with 120 Wheels 50k HP a Nuclear PP and could only traverse 6 Lane Freeways, someone would "Want" it and decry any attempt to Ban it.

If the only size car was a single seater with 1 Cylinder engine putting out 15 HP, you'd all want that too.

 

[piasabird]

When Pigs Fly!

 

[Corn]

Originally posted by: sandorski
We only "Want" what is made available. If someone made a 2 Seater sports car the size of a Mansion with 120 Wheels 50k HP a Nuclear PP and could only traverse 6 Lane Freeways, someone would "Want" it and decry any attempt to Ban it.

If the only size car was a single seater with 1 Cylinder engine putting out 15 HP, you'd all want that too.

Speak for yourself, I'd pass and ride my bike instead (as I do commute most days using my bicycle). I understand that you loathe automobiles, but just because only crap would be available in your utopia does not mean that I'd not want something better. You must be easily satisfied because if Mcdonalds was the only restaurant available, it appears you'd be stupid enough want that slop too......

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Corn

Originally posted by: sandorski
We only "Want" what is made available. If someone made a 2 Seater sports car the size of a Mansion with 120 Wheels 50k HP a Nuclear PP and could only traverse 6 Lane Freeways, someone would "Want" it and decry any attempt to Ban it.

If the only size car was a single seater with 1 Cylinder engine putting out 15 HP, you'd all want that too.

Speak for yourself, I'd pass and ride my bike instead (as I do commute most days using my bicycle). I understand that you loathe automobiles, but just because only crap would be available in your utopia does not mean that I'd not want something better. You must be easily satisfied because if Mcdonalds was the only restaurant available, it appears you'd be stupid enough want that slop too......

Fail.

I don't "hate" automobiles at all. I just realize that we desire what we can have, not some mythical It. People won't stop Buying cars because they will change significantly and Manufacturers won't stop making cars that Enthusiasts won't find desirable. They'll just be different fom what we have now.

 

[Elfear]

Originally posted by: Pneumothorax

Originally posted by: Corn
Well I applaud Obama returning the automotive industry back to the glory days of the late 70's and 80's. Nothing excites buyers quite like "appliances". I look forward to the lefties choking on the unintended consequences of mandating these standards from a single engineering cycle: the proliferation of diesel burning engines in passenger vehicles.

EXACTLY, as most of the posters here don't seem to be car enthusiasts, the few of us who do care more about cars than just A to B transportation are lamenting this new mandate. It took us literally 2 decades of crap-ola cars starting from the early 70's to the early-middle 90's for our cars to equal the performance of their predecessors that were made in the 60's due to 70's emission/mpg mandates. Heck not even a small 140hp 1.8L civic meets these MPG rules. So to get a 140hp civic to get to 39 average MPG (without hybrid which I detest) would require at least direct injection motor, aluminum unit body with carbon fiber (VERY expensive) OR you can slap together a 2 seater 30% smaller version with a 1.0L 65hp motor (Tata anyone?)

Seeing this CAFE legislation pass has gotten me to consider financing a BMW M3 with a tasty 8300RPM V8 instead of purchasing it outright and waiting for it to be outlawed.
Even the wife now wants us to buy the 5.7L Tundra before that gets downgraded to 2.5L 4 cylinder engine.
Of course, we'll have to baby these vehicles as it will be about 2030 before the performance of today's vehicles will be matched by their "green" descendants.

+1

I shudder to think that one day the only available option will be some anemic econo-box. Just when the horsepower wars were getting into full swing, new legislation comes out that effectively sounds it's death knell. This is akin to the goverment mandating TV power consumption rules and everybody having to switch to 10" screens.

 

[gingermeggs]

Originally posted by: Elfear

Originally posted by: Pneumothorax

Originally posted by: Corn
Well I applaud Obama returning the automotive industry back to the glory days of the late 70's and 80's. Nothing excites buyers quite like "appliances". I look forward to the lefties choking on the unintended consequences of mandating these standards from a single engineering cycle: the proliferation of diesel burning engines in passenger vehicles.

EXACTLY, as most of the posters here don't seem to be car enthusiasts, the few of us who do care more about cars than just A to B transportation are lamenting this new mandate. It took us literally 2 decades of crap-ola cars starting from the early 70's to the early-middle 90's for our cars to equal the performance of their predecessors that were made in the 60's due to 70's emission/mpg mandates. Heck not even a small 140hp 1.8L civic meets these MPG rules. So to get a 140hp civic to get to 39 average MPG (without hybrid which I detest) would require at least direct injection motor, aluminum unit body with carbon fiber (VERY expensive) OR you can slap together a 2 seater 30% smaller version with a 1.0L 65hp motor (Tata anyone?)

Seeing this CAFE legislation pass has gotten me to consider financing a BMW M3 with a tasty 8300RPM V8 instead of purchasing it outright and waiting for it to be outlawed.
Even the wife now wants us to buy the 5.7L Tundra before that gets downgraded to 2.5L 4 cylinder engine.
Of course, we'll have to baby these vehicles as it will be about 2030 before the performance of today's vehicles will be matched by their "green" descendants.

+1

I shudder to think that one day the only available option will be some anemic econo-box. Just when the horsepower wars were getting into full swing, new legislation comes out that effectively sounds it's death knell. This is akin to the goverment mandating TV power consumption rules and everybody having to switch to 10" screens.

It will be worth having once extreme weather conditions cut in after 2012, get a tint job on the suckers windows while ure at it. Smoke it up like you only live once...........

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: OCguy
This just in: Obama mandates life expectancy to be 105 years by 2016.

Ahahaha..Ahahaha..:roll:

 

[Pneumothorax]

Originally posted by: gingermeggs

It will be worth having once extreme weather conditions cut in after 2012, get a tint job on the suckers windows while ure at it. Smoke it up like you only live once...........

Might as well as China/India pollute more than us and I don't see that changing anytime soon. In fact, those mega-populated countries are just getting warmed up to cars and many of them are buying large SUV's/Sports cars that we won't be able to buy anymore at the land of the "Free".

 

[Fayd]

Originally posted by: techs

Originally posted by: DLeRium
Link

While the 30 percent increase would be an average for both cars and light trucks, the percentage increase in cars would be much greater, rising from the current 27.5 mpg standard to 42 mpg starting in 2016. The average for light trucks would rise from 24 mpg to 26.2 mpg.

HOLY! Wow. That's a huge increase. And people were saying Bush's push for 35mpg was outrageous? Wasn't that 2020 also? I wonder how feasible this is because honestly how far have we come in the past 10 years for your average sedan? You can talk about introducing hybrid cars and subcompacts to skew the average fleet MPG upwards, but how far technologically have we gotten to see a jump in MPG in your average car?

Uh, Bush pushed for NOTHING. In fact he wanted to change the formula for mpg so the car companies could get lower mileage.

And, this sounds like what happened when the Congress wanted the car companies to put seat belts in their cars. The car companies said it would cost 2,000 a car in 1961!
Set a difficult standard, and guess what? With old fashioned ingenuity American business can do it.

you're a fucking idiot.

there are limits to the amount of energy you can extract from a gallon of fuel. this has nothing to do with "old fashioned american ingenuity".

30 even is a reasonable figure. 42 is not.